Topic: A REALLY Inconvenient Truth

[BLACKDOG]

Well good, then it shouldn't be too hard to back up this claim with a few facts.   

Well, communism didn't work out too well for the USSR did it?  Even China has stepped back from its staunch communist views, and has adopted a stance more toward socialism/extremely restricted capitalism.  that is why they they have been thriving recently. 

[Hammerhead]

Well good, then it shouldn't be too hard to back up this claim with a few facts.  

Ok, so you have an example of communism actually working?

[94MtnYote]

 You called Gore a Marxist, I was just asking for something that would prove this statement correct. I should have been more specific.
 Communism is obviously inferior to a democracy.
 

[COToy91]

If capitalism under bush was working so well right now our economy would be sucking so much right now. In addition to that my father wouldn't be without a retirement, and on the verge of being laid off if bush made it so all airlines in trouble could get the loan packages from his administration but no united was denied and they filed for chapter 11, and thus his pension was dissolved.

And last time i checked there has never EVER been true communism in the world ever, but since you seem to be so high and mighty when it come to that and Carl Marx maybe you would know that. There has never been a pure revolution of the proletariat, nor was the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Yugoslavia ever a pure communist party. In his book The communist manifesto Carl Marx said that it was the people who would own and operate everything collectively. Last time i checked... Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Gorbachev were all totalitarian leaders of there state.

The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to other working-class parties.
They have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole.
They do not set up any special principles of their own, by which to shape and mold the proletarian movement.
The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

So if you say Al Gore is pushing his class forward then you are saying that he is pushing the middle working class, and last time i checked he is not in the tax bracket, so you my friend are wrong.

[COToy91]

10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto

   1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
   2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
   3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
   4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
   5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
   6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
   7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
   8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
   9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
  10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production


I for one nor anyone has heard Al Gore preaching this either, he is not a communist, he is a registered democrat

And before you go preaching about who is communist, know what one is first

[Toymin8r]

If capitalism under bush was working so well right now our economy would be sucking so much right now.

The state of the econonomy has very little to do with the president.  The current state of the economy is due to two things mainly. 

One, Gas prices.  The 5 major oil companies have virtually a monopoloy on their product.  The Unitied states is the only developed country in the world that has oil and doesn't use it.  The domocratic controlled congress has blocked any and every attempt to drill for oil or build a refinery to increase production capabilities.  The Oil companies know this and take full advantage of it.  The only forseeable solution is to classify oil in the same category as electric power, natural gas, communication, etc.  Instead of the Hillary plan of taking their profits they need to have governent oversite to regulate how much profit they can make so the us consumer doesn't get screwed.  This is how the power comanies, the phone comanies and natural gas companies operate.  They cannot raise prices w/o being approved by a governemt oversite comittee.  On this, Bush has been asleep at the helm but so has every other politician since the 80's.  the democrats plan was to have alternative fuels like ethanol.  This has caused food shortages due to too many acres being planted to make corn for ehtanol.

Second, the poor economy is also due to trade agreements with China and India. It was president Clinton that opened trade with Communist China and India and it has virtually destroyed all manufacturing within the US.  This in turn has caused the value of the dollar to drop, which again helps the first reason.  Remember that while China is holding anti-west protests and putting lead paint your kids toys all the while selling billions of dollars of goods to us.

The war to an extent has been a drain on our economy too but wars historicallly have helped the economy during and after due to the creation of jobs.  We could help ouselves by making Iraq send some of their oil our way but the Bush hater's would have a field day with that.  It would however make the oil companies reduce prices if the US governemt decided to pump, refine and sell gasoline, much like the Postal service competes with other shippers. Ironically, 70% of the oil pumped out of Iraq is sent to China, who uses it to further industrialize their country, which in turn helps to hurt our economy.  For that Bush is at fault.

Fixing this economy takes cooperation between all of our politicians and they just seem to become more and more polarized and less agreeable with each other as time goes by.  If you hadn't already noticed most politicians are rich so they can afford to keep this up a lot longer than we can. 

[DTB]

 The Unitied states is the only developed country in the world that has oil and doesn't use it.  The domocratic controlled congress has blocked any and every attempt to drill for oil or build a refinery to increase production capabilities. 

Hmmm weird..I am a part owner of a drilling company. We are drilling a few wells right now as we speak. It is very expensive to drill wells. Dry holes are a common thing......

No the government does not help us. The only people we have problems with are with the EPA. We have a butt load of oil right here in Middle America but the problem is that it is scattered in smaller fields making extraction a very costly and risky business...... Transporting the oil from from say, Russia (which is the number one oil exporter right now) is cheaper than producing it ourselves...

[Hammerhead]

And before you go preaching about who is communist, know what one is first

Nice try...

...Gore is a Marxist...

Marxist -  One who believes in or follows the ideas of Marx

Marxism -  The political and economic ideas of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels as developed into a system of thought that gives class struggle a primary role in leading society from bourgeois democracy under capitalism to a socialist society.

I for one nor anyone has heard Al Gore preaching this either, he is not a communist, he is a registered democrat

Of course you haven't heard Gore preaching communism openly.  That would be polital suicide.  He is a registered democrat doing it behind the scenes causing civil unrest with the mainstream liberal media helping to cover his tracks.  It's all part of the formula written out by Marx...

Now come back when you've read all of Gores material and tell me he isn't a Marxist 

While you are at it you might read up on the Clinton camp too.

[COToy91]

Nice try...

Marxist -  One who believes in or follows the ideas of Marx

Marxism -  The political and economic ideas of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels as developed into a system of thought that gives class struggle a primary role in leading society from bourgeois democracy under capitalism to a socialist society.
Of course you haven't heard Gore preaching communism openly.  That would be polital suicide.  He is a registered democrat doing it behind the scenes causing civil unrest with the mainstream liberal media helping to cover his tracks.  It's all part of the formula written out by Marx...

Now come back when you've read all of Gores material and tell me he isn't a Marxist 

While you are at it you might read up on the Clinton camp too.

Read this book... Then read it again, http://books.google.com/books?id=yhOOvF61XKgC&dq=communist+manifesto&pg=PP1&ots=IEkZJ0QVnr&sig=yGvPEagfuTqFjgAN9sucNvDiid4&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=communist+manifesto&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPP1,M1

[BLACKDOG]

Read this book... Then read it again, http://books.google.com/books?id=yhOOvF61XKgC&dq=communist+manifesto&pg=PP1&ots=IEkZJ0QVnr&sig=yGvPEagfuTqFjgAN9sucNvDiid4&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=communist+manifesto&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPP1,M1

why would we want to read the communist manifesto?    I read it once in HS, wasn't impressed with the whole theory behind it.  There is no such thing as a perfect communist society.  The way we as people are made up makes it impossible.  We are competitive beings, and being forced into a government that is based around complete equality is only destined to fail.  It is that competitiveness that has made capitalism so great.  The idea that something can come along, and someone says, "Hey, I can make that bigger, better, faster, etc."  If no one got credit for their creations, or their ideas, then the system of invention, creativity, etc. would fall apart. 

If capitalism under bush was working so well right now our economy would be sucking so much right now. In addition to that my father wouldn't be without a retirement, and on the verge of being laid off if bush made it so all airlines in trouble could get the loan packages from his administration but no united was denied and they filed for chapter 11, and thus his pension was dissolved.

Since when is it the Government's job to bail out struggling businesses?  This is a big issue with our government, and one of the things that is causing some of the problems we face today.  The government is stepping in to "rescue" the financial institutions that went against everything that they knew was right, over invested, gave loans away to people who had no business receiving them, etc.  Now when the hits the fan, and they're left holding the bag, they cry to the government.  Don't get me wrong, I have full sympathy for your Dad, who worked his entire career, and has nothing to show for it in retirement.  The airlines are certainly struggling, there is no denying that.  My dad has taken some big pay cuts and benny cuts recently (he's an Alaska Airlines pilot) so I know how its going.

[COToy91]

why would we want to read the communist manifesto?    I read it once in HS, wasn't impressed with the whole theory behind it.  There is no such thing as a perfect communist society.  The way we as people are made up makes it impossible.  We are competitive beings, and being forced into a government that is based around complete equality is only destined to fail.  It is that competitiveness that has made capitalism so great.  The idea that something can come along, and someone says, "Hey, I can make that bigger, better, faster, etc."  If no one got credit for their creations, or their ideas, then the system of invention, creativity, etc. would fall apart.

The idea of communism itself was manifested in that book by Carl Marx and Friedrich Engels, it did not really exist before then. In the times it was written were full of revolution and distrust of the government in Europe, I guess what i am trying to say is that pointing out that someone is a communist about the things you read on the net is naive and rather dumb. 

Since when is it the Government's job to bail out struggling businesses?  This is a big issue with our government, and one of the things that is causing some of the problems we face today.  The government is stepping in to "rescue" the financial institutions that went against everything that they knew was right, over invested, gave loans away to people who had no business receiving them, etc.  Now when the hits the fan, and they're left holding the bag, they cry to the government.  Don't get me wrong, I have full sympathy for your Dad, who worked his entire career, and has nothing to show for it in retirement.  The airlines are certainly struggling, there is no denying that.  My dad has taken some big pay cuts and benny cuts recently (he's an Alaska Airlines pilot) so I know how its going.

I am not saying that is the responsibility of the government to bail any business out of economic trouble nor do i really think that they should have to. In this case though after Carter regularized the airline industry it became so competitive that it was hard for any airline to make money. After 9/11 there was an offer from the Bush administration to aide to them in he form of loans, out of all that applied very few were helped. United didn't get any, filed chapter 11, dissolved pensions, and cut thousands of jobs. I am not saying that if Bush came through that woulds have not happened, I just think that many would still have  a retirement or a job.


Oh and i am a 19 year old bleeding heart liberal, but i think you knew that lol

[94MtnYote]

 Yes, there is no suck thing as perfect communist society, nor does there exist a perfect democracy.    Democracy is still an ongoing experiment with room for improvements.
   glad I'm not the only one that doesn't believe Gore to be a communist.

[BLACKDOG]

The idea of communism itself was manifested in that book by Carl Marx and Friedrich Engels, it did not really exist before then. In the times it was written were full of revolution and distrust of the government in Europe, I guess what i am trying to say is that pointing out that someone is a communist about the things you read on the net is naive and rather dumb. 

I am not saying that is the responsibility of the government to bail any business out of economic trouble nor do i really think that they should have to. In this case though after Carter regularized the airline industry it became so competitive that it was hard for any airline to make money. After 9/11 there was an offer from the Bush administration to aide to them in he form of loans, out of all that applied very few were helped. United didn't get any, filed chapter 11, dissolved pensions, and cut thousands of jobs. I am not saying that if Bush came through that woulds have not happened, I just think that many would still have  a retirement or a job.


Oh and i am a 19 year old bleeding heart liberal, but i think you knew that lol

I gathered

I'd be careful accusing throwing around accusations of people not knowing what they are talking about, and just quoting what they see on the internet.    A lot of people on here were around before the internet was invented (by Al Gore, according to the internet )  heck, even before computers.  Many of them went through the cold war, and had a much closer look at communism than you have reading in your text books.  

Of course, the reasoning behind cutting the pensions, and laying off people was to try to save the company.  Even if they did receive the loans, and as you said, if it hadn't of worked, the same thing would have happened.  What you are talking about are last ditch efforts that companies going under do.  The company I was working for prior to the fire dept.  was directly involved with the housing boom.  When the bubble popped, they had to go through layoffs and such as well.  The company is still in existence, but when it can't afford to pay its people, then it has to do something.    If it continues to pay them, without bringing the profit it, it is bleeding out, and will die.

[Toymin8r]

Hmmm weird..I am a part owner of a drilling company. We are drilling a few wells right now as we speak. It is very expensive to drill wells. Dry holes are a common thing......

No the government does not help us. The only people we have problems with are with the EPA. We have a butt load of oil right here in Middle America but the problem is that it is scattered in smaller fields making extraction a very costly and risky business...... Transporting the oil from from say, Russia (which is the number one oil exporter right now) is cheaper than producing it ourselves...

I was referring mainly to our large oil deposits in the gulf and anwar.  Those small pumps all over the midwest were there long before the EPA cared.  Some experts believe that the Gulf of Mexico contains larger deposits of oil than the middle east. Mexico and Venezuela drill for oil in the Gulf but the greenies always block all attemts by the US to tap in to it.  The biggest thing that makes me mad is that Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez pumps oil right out of the same Gulf of Mexico and then sells it to the big oil companies for huge profits,  all the while badmouthing the US.  Thats why his country has so much money.  Mexico does the same thing.  Last time I checked a gallon of gas in Venezuela was 11 cents.

[WHITE_TRASH]

Gore isn't smart enough to be a communist.  He's a hypocrite and a liar.  He has a huge stake in the at least one of the companies that sell the so called carbon credits.  Of course he wants everyone to be green, he will be a fawking billionaire within 10 years if this line of BS takes hold...

[kneedownnate]

A lot of people on here were around before the internet was invented (by Al Gore, according to the internet ) 

I was wondering when this was going to come out