another religion thread

[germ]

You see, something as complex as the universe HAS to have a creator, and to create something as complex as the universe, its creator would have to be MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more complex. But somehow the universe's creator needs no explanation beyond "He just always existed". As if that explains anything.

Now your getting very existential. We just don't have the ability to understand our creator. We have tiny little brains, and very limited ability to comprehend.

I've heard people try to explain that there are several worlds, each with it's own god, and it gets more complicated and wierd from there. Personally, I don't believe any of it. I just know that God does exist, and he created us and our little universe. Hopefully, when I die, I'll get to heaven, and it will all be made clear to me (and I will find all those lost socks that seem to disapper in the dryer)

Erik

[BLACKDOG]

I can almost hear heads exploding as I type.

You see, something as complex as the universe HAS to have a creator, and to create something as complex as the universe, its creator would have to be MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more complex. But somehow the universe's creator needs no explanation beyond "He just always existed". As if that explains anything. 

Well, as you've already mentioned that the Creator of the universe is extremely complex, He has to be to have created the complex universe we live in.  Seeing as we don't even truly understand the nature of the universe, is it such a hard stretch that we'd be unable to understand God? Whom you've already stated yourself has to be much more complex than the universe? 

[Doof]

yes everythying is complex and confusing and ?'s will go unanswered until later on in life when events can make things more clear to the individual, but

who created god?

[BLACKDOG]

yes everythying is complex and confusing and ?'s will go unanswered until later on in life when events can make things more clear to the individual, but

who created god?

Well, according to the Bible, God has always existed.  Someone may chime in with a better answer than I have here, but that is what I believe.  If God were created, than that would indicate that there was a more powererful being than He, and that isn't possible.

aside from that, this is a circular arguement, because if there were a being that created God, then who created that being?  Another more powerful being?    then who created that one?  See how it can go on and on? 

I'm content with knowing that there are things that I don't know in life.  I have no doubt of God's existence, due to the complexity of our world, the universe, and the people around us, not to mention the miraculous things that happen on a daily basis around the world.  I want to learn more about the world, and about God, but I know that no matter how much I study, and how much I learn, there are things that I won't know, both worldly and divinely.

[germ]

I'm content with knowing that there are things that I don't know in life.  I have no doubt of God's existence, due to the complexity of our world, the universe, and the people around us, not to mention the miraculous things that happen on a daily basis around the world.  I want to learn more about the world, and about God, but I know that no matter how much I study, and how much I learn, there are things that I won't know, both worldly and divinely.

Amen!

To use an example I use with my kids on a regular basis when the ask questions that they should not be thinking about yet, I tell them that right now, they are not ready for that information, and that I will hold on to it for them until they are ready, and when they are I will share it with them. This satisfies their curiosity. I believe it is similar with God and what he reveals to us. I don't believe we are capable of understanding the complexity of the heavens in which he lives. maybe someday we will be, and then all will be revealed.

[Lowrider]

We have tiny little brains, and very limited ability to comprehend.

I would beg to differ. We are the only animal known to us that CAN comprehend. We have the LARGEST brains known to man. We know of no other animal that has foresight, can problem solve, invent, and show empathy to the extent that WE can. 

We are also the only animal that can make up stories, exaggerate, lie, and fool people.

Oh, and I was being sarcastic in the last post. I was only trying to point out that we can not say that the explanation of the universe requires a creator, and then turn around and say the creator requires NO explanation.

[germ]

We have the LARGEST brains known to man.

You have just proven my point. "We" only know what we are capable of understanding. There is alot about our own world that we do not understand yet, and we live here. We are still trying to figure out how the human body works, and are making new discoveries all the time. I can't imagine that we are capable of understanding the complexity and magnifigance of heaven and our creator.

I think we need to take a step back and look at the world as a whole, and realize that the immense complexity of it could not happen randomly, and that we must have been created by someone (God) who is exponentially more intelligent than we are.

The Bible tells us in Genesis that we were created in God's image not that we are equal to him. It also tells us that we were to be the masters of all the animal life in the world, which to my understanding explains why we are more intelligent that your average gofer (that may be debatable depending on which human specimen you choose to use for comparison...hehe)

We know of no other animal that has foresight, can problem solve, invent, and show empathy to the extent that WE can.

Somtimes I think my dog is better at this than I am...JK

Erik

[Lowrider]

I think we need to take a step back and look at the world as a whole, and realize that the immense complexity of it could not happen randomly, and that we must have been created by someone (God) who is exponentially more intelligent than we are.

No. That does not work. If you use this logic you then have to conclude that God was created by someone (super God?) who is exponentially more intelligent than (our) God. Then you would have to conclude that a exponentially more intelligent (super double throw down God?) created that one. And so on and so forth. And so on and so forth. And so on and so forth. Where does this get you? Full circle back to square one.

And im sorry you feel I proved your point. I did not. You said we have "very tiny little brains and very limited ability to comprehend". When in fact, we have the largest brains we can actually observe in the natural world. As well as the best ability to comprehend.

[germ]

You said we have "very tiny little brains and very limited ability to comprehend". When in fact, we have the largest brains we can actually observe in the natural world. As well as the best ability to comprehend.

OK, I concede your point. We have the most complex brains that WE know of, and the largest as a percentage of our body mass. (a whales brain is significantly larger in pure mass, but as a % of body mass it's relatively small).

The point I was trying to make is that we don't have any idea how complex the "brain" is, as we only understand a very small percentage of what is is capable of and how it does what it does. Fortunatly, we're learning more every day. We also have no idea how complex God's "brain" is, and I believe it is significantly more complex that ours could ever be. Also, it is not visible in the "natural world".

No. That does not work. If you use this logic you then have to conclude that God was created by someone (super God?) who is exponentially more intelligent than (our) God. Then you would have to conclude that a exponentially more intelligent (super double throw down God?) created that one. And so on and so forth. And so on and so forth. And so on and so forth. Where does this get you? Full circle back to square one.

I'd have to disagree with you on this point. Our understanding of the world, when it comes to creation, is that someone had to create (insert thing here). Our experience is that that person is a descendant from someone else who in turn is a descendant etc. I'd suggest that that logic does not necessarily apply to the Heavens. While I can't "prove" it, I think that God has always been, and will always continue to be. I don't subscribe to the theory that "he" was created by some super god. It's not an easy concept to put into words, and even harder to have it make sense.

I hate the cop-out of "you just have to believe", 'cause it cuts off resonable debate, but based on what I know about God, there is a point where you have to take a leap of faith, and just accept the fact that we are not able to fully understand everything. I personally have gotten to that point, and am comfortable not having all the answers. I have not always had that comfort, and have struggled with the exact same concepts that you are bringing up. I wish I had a clean cut and dry answer, but unfortunatly I don't. Maybe some of the other members have a better way of wording it.

To use an analogy to illustrate. We know that the holocaust occured during WWII. When asked to prove it occured, it is very easy to discredit every shred of evidence when looked at as individual points. However when you look at it in it's entirety (sp?) I doubt any reasonable person could argue that it didn't occur.

Same with the concept of God. It is relativley easy to discredit individual points that people discuss to show the presence of God. However when you look at everything, as one large picture, it becomes pretty evident that God has created all things (at least that is the way I percieve it).

Erik

[germ]

I hate the cop-out of "you just have to believe", 'cause it cuts off resonable debate

Hmmmmm, guess I killed the reasonable debate.......

[BLACKDOG]

Hmmmmm, guess I killed the reasonable debate.......

mabye we're all just speechless with your comprehension of the divine?   

[Doof]

yeah, you just blew everybodys mind and we couldnt think of something to say to match your experties     

[germ]

mabye we're all just speechless with your comprehension of the divine?

yeah, you just blew everybodys mind and we couldnt think of something to say to match your experties

Ummmmm somehow, I doubt it. If i was that enlightened, d'all think I'd be going to work everyday? I'd a figured out some way to get paid for doing nothing....

Erik

[Doof]

lol...be a food critic you get paid to write about food

[BLACKDOG]

Ummmmm somehow, I doubt it. If i was that enlightened, d'all think I'd be going to work everyday? I'd a figured out some way to get paid for doing nothing....

Erik

We said you were enlightened, doesn't necessarily mean you're smart! 

j/k

[Redeyejedi]

people will believe what they choose despite all the factual data shoved in front of them.
if there were solid facts upon facts depicting how religion is a sham......very few people would stop practicing their religion of choice. i personally think what is waaaay more important is whether we are free to believe what we choose. i think it's silly for everone to subscribe to one doctrine, what if it was indeed false?
tolerance, acceptance, and no force feeding is trully the american way........imho

[germ]

people will believe what they choose despite all the factual data shoved in front of them.

Absolutly right! Perfect examples are liberals, environazi's and anyone who believes in Global Warming. Religion is not immune to this either.

i personally think what is waaaay more important is whether we are free to believe what we choose.

Couldn't agree more. One of the most important facets of our society. It's something Americans have been willing to fight and die for, and continue to do so today. Along with this however is the responsibility of understanding why we believe what we believe, so that we don't just believe any idiot who comes along with a good story. We have to take the time to learn and research [insert topic here] so that our beliefs are based on personal understanding of [topic], and not just because someone told us.

i think it's silly for everone to subscribe to one doctrine,

Having different beliefs is a great way to have debate, and hopefully everyone involved will learn from everyone else.

what if it was indeed false?

You can "what if" yourself right into or out of just about anything. If butterflies carried .45's, birds wouldn't mess with them. There comes a point where everyone has to take a stand. As BD says, its better to die on your feet than live on your knees. That stand, of course should be well thought out, and defensible with credible information. Belief in a particular religion is often based on what is spoon fed to us as children, and not based on personal exploration and learning. This, IMHO is dangerous. As most know, I have some very strongly held opinions. I feel that I have put in the required effort to form those opinions, but I'm also not so arrogant to think that I'm always absolutly right, every time. I'm always willing to listen to others well thought out opinions.

Not sure if this exactly applies to what you were saying, but overall, I have to agree with your point. It's more to add to the the discussion. I'd be interested to hear others opinions as well.

Erik

[BLACKDOG]

You, strong opinions Erik?  No Way!!

I'm gonna have to go ahead and say it again.  Well said!!   Much better than I could have said it

[BigMike]

Pardon my interruption...


This is off topic (currently), but I just came across it and since its Halloween, I thought this would be appropriate to share here tonight I had heard a little bit regarding this, but I did not know about the relation to fruit and why we hand out candy today. Pretty interesting...


Ten Reasons Christians Should Not Celebrate Halloween
Many in our secular society believe Halloween is nothing more than a harmless festival that allows kids to collect candy. But is it? Its origins lie deeply rooted in the occult, and Christians should stay away. Here are ten reasons why.

1. October 31st has long been known as "The Festival of the Dead." The Celtic tribes and their priests the Druids celebrated this day as a marker for the change from life to death.

2. Halloween today is performed usually by adherents of witchcraft who use the night for their rituals. Witches celebrate Halloween as the "Feast of Samhain," the first feast of the witchcraft year. Being a festival of the dead, Halloween is a time when witches attempt to communicate with the dead through various forms of divination.

3. Christians should not be involved with occultic practice or divination. Note God's command against divination in Deuteronomy 18.

4. Occultists believe Halloween is a time of transition between life and death. Some occult practitioners practiced divination and believed you could learn the secrets of life and wisdom by Iying on a grave and listening to the messages from the long-departed.

5. Occultists also taught that spirits and ghosts left the grave during this night and would seek out warmth in their previous homes. Villagers, fearful of the possibility of being visited by the ghosts of past occupants, would dress up in costumes to scare the spirits on their way. They would also leave food and other treats at their door to appease the spirits so they would not destroy their homes or crops but instead move on down the road. That is the real reason why kids dress up in costumes today and go door-to-door seeking treats.

6. Occultists also would try to scare away the spirits by carving a scary face into a pumpkin. This horrible visage would hopefully move the spirit on to another home or village and spare that home from destruction. Sometimes the villagers would light a candle and place it within the pumpkin and use it as a lantern (hence the name, Jack-o-Lantern). This is the origin of carving pumpkins at Halloween.

7. In some witchcraft covens, the closing ritual includes eating an apple or engaging in fertility rites. In the Bible (Genesis 3), eating a piece of fruit brought sin and death into the world. In witchcraft, eating an apple is symbolic of bringing life. The practice of bobbing for apples brings together two pagan traditions: divination and the fertility ritual.

8. Schools are removing any religious significance from Christmas (often called winter break) and Easter (spring break). Isn't it ironic that most public schools still celebrate Halloween even though it has occultic origins?

9. Participating in Halloween gives sanction to a holiday that promotes witches, divination, haunted houses, and other occultic practices.

10. Christians should avoid Halloween and develop creative alternatives. Churches can hold a Fall Fun Festival and/or celebrate Reformation Day (also October 31). They should not endorse or promote Halloween.

[Doof]

that is interesting.....

really offtopic but o well

hey big mike, do you type really fast or type it over time in something like microsoft word and then when your masterpiece is finished just copy and past? or do you type it all in one sitting in the reply box??

[BigMike]

Actually, here is the story behind that article..

There is a really cool gas station near my house (a Shell station) that closes down Friday night and opens back up Sunday morning. Also inside there are various Christian articles, like "Do you know who Jesus is?" or "The path to a better life" and such, and I asked one of the workers if the owner was a Seventh Day Adventist, and he told me "nope, he is not SDA, he just follows the Bible." I chuckled and told him they are one in the same.

So earlier this evening I was heading home and stopped for some gas, and inside he had this handout, and I grabbed one.

Now to answer your question, all I did was searched a bit online and I found this exact article, highlighted and copied the document, and then pasted it into the Quick Reply box at the bottom of this thread.

Regarding the previous "sermon" (yet unfinished) that I presented, that was of course all by hand directly into the same Quick Reply box.


I type 118 words per minuet...................................................but its in my own language

[Doof]

    impressive


and SDA??

[BLACKDOG]

   impressive


and SDA??

Seventh Day Adventist   BM or bd can tell you better about what they believe than I can, it is another offshoot if you will, of the Christian faith.

[Doof]

i c


thanks

[Lowrider]

People still believe in witchcraft? 

[Doof]

i think it ws that  whole harry potter deal

[Willy Mammoth]

People still believe in witchcraft? 

How do you think I come up with all the crap I do?

[Lowrider]

How do you think I come up with all the crap I do?

I dont know, 

but it certainly isnt witchcraft.   

[Doof]

or is it?? dun dun dun

[BigMike]

New topic: How to know Christ.

I wanted to share an experience I had recently, especially to those who are wondering just what Christianity is all about.

I recently came across a Japanese bible, and I thought it would be great to get my significant other (who is a Japanese native) to read a couple chapters if she was interested (Remember English is her second language, and despite how good she is at it, its hard for her to read the Bible!). So I asked our pastor at church what section would be interesting for a "first timer", if you will, and he said start with Mark.

Just for reference, Mark is the 2nd book of the new testament and is 1 of 4 books that describe the life of Jesus here on earth.

Well, I immediately thought, "Wow, why this?" You see, my idea was that since she is from Japan, a culture who believes in high morals and peace-of-mind type philosophy (aka Buddhism, Zen, Shintoism, etc), that it might be best to recommend the book of Proverbs (which is a book of wisdom) or Psalms (a book of poetry). But what my pastor said was something that I was not thinking...

You see, Christianity is just that: Belief and love in Christ! If you don't know who Christ is and why He needed to come here, then I think its hard for one to take the time to read the Bible and take it seriously.

So I just wanted to share this experience.

If you are interested in wanting to get to know who Jesus is and what he did, then just open up a Bible and give it a try: Start with the book of Mark. It is the 41st book of the Bible and the 2nd book of the new testament. It was the first book written on Jesus, it features the most stories of miracles than any other book, and it was written for the Romans, so it is easy for us to read and follow. Just read 1 page a day if possible......and make your way to the end of the Bible, then go all the way back to the first book (Genesis) and read from the first book all the way forward to Mark.

It is interesting that all of the "Read the Bible in 1 year" guides I've seen always start with Genesis 1:1. Why not start with the story of Jesus? Get to know Him, and get to understand why He came here for us! Then as you read the rest of the Bible, you will be able to understand the passion and devotion that I believe God wants all of His children to share with Him.

BigMike