another religion thread

[Doof]

ill look into both when im making a choice when i do

[93tonkatoy]

This might be where we disagree. What do you mean by "stranglehold"? Clearly there is only one God and therefore only one correct way to worship him. God created his laws and therefore they are all binding.
BigMike

sorry, maybe wrong word. What I am referring to is the perception of some religions that the acceptance of their beliefs, and theirs only, is the only way to be saved. In my belief, one is only responsible for the choices that he makes. To do right, or not to do right. If there is only one way to get to heaven, and a person never understood that one way, has he made a choice to not do it? If he has not made a choice, and has not understood the way, then, as I believe, he is still innocent of the truth, and will be judged according to his innocence. I believe that God is the only one who can judge a person's standing, and that according to Jesus' teachings, we should accept ALL of our neighbors, as if it were god himself that was standing before us. "In all that ye do, do it as unto me."

[BigMike]

sorry, maybe wrong word. What I am referring to is the perception of some religions that the acceptance of their beliefs, and theirs only, is the only way to be saved. In my belief, one is only responsible for the choices that he makes. To do right, or not to do right. If there is only one way to get to heaven, and a person never understood that one way, has he made a choice to not do it? If he has not made a choice, and has not understood the way, then, as I believe, he is still innocent of the truth, and will be judged according to his innocence. I believe that God is the only one who can judge a person's standing, and that according to Jesus' teachings, we should accept ALL of our neighbors, as if it were god himself that was standing before us. "In all that ye do, do it as unto me."

Everything you have said here is exactly how I interpret the Bible and God.

I used to use this illustration:

Suppose a boy is born into a 19th century African tribe. This tribe has built their village around a large cactus in the desert. Some time in the past, a set of rules came into existence from this cactus, and everyone in the village knows to follow these rules that the cactus has set forth, and this boy is no exception. He is raised true and just to the guidelines of the cactus and he follows and obeys its laws.

Then one day the boy is out hunting, and sadly, he is eaten by a hyena.



Question: Will this child go to Heaven? Does the Bible not say that the only way to enter into the gates of Heaven is only through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal savior? Clearly this boy was never introduced to a "Jesus" nor had he ever even known that a Bible existed. The cactus was his "god" and he chose to live a life worthy of the cactus.

I believe as you have stated is that we are judged by what we do in live, weather it be right wrong, based on each individuals knowledge and exposure to this world.

BigMike

[BigMike]

Ok, I have begun writing into MS Word a very good sermon my pastor gave so that I can transfer it here. I am about half way finished, so here is what I've so far

Keys to the Mystery of Life and Death

Lets explore what the Bible has to say regarding Life and Death in the following 10 categories:

1. What is life?

2. What is the body composed of?

3. What is the spirit of man?

4. What is a soul? What happens to this soul when a person dies?

5. How could life be perpetuated at the very beginning of time? Did man have an immortal soul, or was there an external source of life that man needed to partake of?

6. What is death according to the Bible?

7. Where does man go when he dies?

8. If we die, is there hope of living again?

9. When will Death be totally eradicated from the universe?

and finally,

10. Why is this subject so important, especially today?

[blackdiamond]

I suggest one at at time.  Easy does it!

[BigMike]

1. What is life?
Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV) New KJV says "living being"
   So God first formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, then he breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and then Adam became a living soul. Note that this text does not tell us that God gave Adam a soul. We are not told that Adam had a soul. We are told that Adam was a soul. The soul was the totality of Adam: The body plus the breath was equal to the soul. The soul is not something that Adam had inside of himself, in his totality he was a soul. The dust plus the breath equaled the soul.



2. What is the body composed of?
Isaiah 64:8 - But now, O Lord, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And we are the work of Your hand. (NKJV)
   Notice that this verse tells us we are made out of clay, potters clay. Now its interesting to notice that in the story of creation God spoke everything into existence, but when he formed man, he took dust, or clay, and he formed the body of man and then breathed into his nostrils. So according to this text in Isaiah, we are all composed of dust, or of clay, in our physical nature. Our body is composed of clay.


3. What is the spirit of man?
There are two words in Hebrew that are closely related: One is neshamah which is translated as "breath" in Genesis 2:7. But there is another Hebrew word that is basically synonymous to neshamah, and it is the word ruwach which means "spirit". Neshamah is always translated in the KJV as breath, but the word ruwach is translated as spirit:
Job 33:4 - The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (NKJV)
   Notice the synonymous expression between spirit and breath. These two phrases are parallel; they say the same thing in different words. "The spirit and God hath made me" this is the word ruwach, and "the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." this is the word neshamah. According to Genesis 2:7, the spirit or the breath is found where: In the nostrils. This is a very important point. What do you use your nostrils for? To breathe. So the Spirit of a man is his respiration. In other words, the spirit or the breath is the energizing force, the electrical power source, that makes the heart pump, the lungs breathe, and the blood to circulate. It is the vital energy that keeps the body functioning. And by the way, the heart pumps and the lungs breathe and the oxygen is carried to all parts of the body through the blood. So the breathe or the spirit is the energizing force that allows the body to be alive and to function and to move.

[BigMike]

4. What is a soul? What happens to this soul when a person dies?
There is a lot of confusion when it comes to talking about the soul. The problem is that the word soul in the 20th century means something different in the minds of people than it did back in Biblical times, in the old and in the new testament. In scripture, the soul is basically the life of the person, or is the person, the individual.

Genesis 9:4 – But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. (NKJV)
The word "life" is the Hebrew word nephesh, which is the same word used in Genesis 2:7 and translated into "soul" or "being" in the NKJV. So the soul is the life, is the living entity, the individual, the person: the person whose body is functioning because the breath is allowing the body to function. So the word soul is translated many times as "life".

Now this word is also translated into soul, and in the NKJV it is translated as "person":
Genesis 12:5 – And then Abram took Sarah his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions they had gathered, and the people whom the had acquired in Haran, and the departed to go to the land of Canaan, so they came to the land of Canaan. (NKJV)
Notice they took the "people" whom they had acquired in Haran. The KJV translates "people" as "souls":
And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. (KJV)
It says Abram took the "souls" that he had acquired in Haran. Obviously the word souls means as it is translated in the NKJV, as people! It is the same translated Hebrew word, nephesh.

Genesis 14:21 - Now the king of Sodom said to Abram, give me the persons and take the goods for yourself. (NKJV)
Once again the NKJV translates nephesh, souls, as persons or people. You keep the souls, and I’ll keep the possessions. Now obviously the word souls here means persons, and it is translated as such in the NKJV. So the Hebrew word nephesh can mean life or it can mean person.

Genesis 35:18 this has been greatly misunderstood - And so it was, as her soul was departing, for she died, that she called his name Benoni, but his father called him Benjamin. (NKJV)
Now the NKJV translates nephesh here as soul. Now you can very easily translate this word as life, "as her life was departing," and that is how it should be translated. Many Christians like to put additional words to this text: "as her immortal soul was departing to heaven." The text does not say her soul was immortal, neither does it say it was departing to heaven. It simply says that her life was going out from her, and then it explains what it means, it says: "for she died." We should never add words to any text, and "soul" here is very easily translated as "life," just like in Genesis 9:4: its the same Hebrew word.

We also find this same translation pattern in the new testament. The equivalent Greek word, psychē or psuche, is translated "souls" in the KJV but it is translated "persons" in the NKJV.
Acts 7:14 – Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy five people. (NKJV)
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls. (KJV)

Here the Greek word psuche which is exactly equivalent to the Hebrew word nephesh. The KJV translates nephesh as "souls" but it’s really "people". So what is the soul? The soul is the person, or the individual.

The New Testament also translates the word soul with the word life:
Matthew 2:20 – This is speaking about the time when Herod was seeking to kill Jesus - Saying, Arise, take the young child and his mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young child's life, are dead. (NKJV)
Here "life" is translated for the very same word psuche. So really the soul is the life. Herod was not seeking some intangible invisible entity from within Jesus, he was seeking for the life of Jesus, he was seeking to kill Jesus.

By the way, do you know that in the new testament, the word "soul" and the personal pronoun are used interchangeably:
Matthew 16:26 – For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? (NKJV)
Now let’s see how Luke interpreted this same quote from Christ:
Luke 9:25 – For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? (NKJV)
In Matthew it says loses "his soul" but in Luke it says loses "himself." Therefore the Soul is Me, Myself, and I: The Person, the living entity, the life.

By the way do you know that the words soul and spirit are used approximately 1,650 times in the Bible, and not ONCE is the word immortal linked with the word soul or spirit. You would think that if the soul was immortal you would have at least ONE VERSE where the word immortal is linked to the word spirit or the word soul, but it simply is not there.

[BigMike]

Ok, that is as far as I've gotten so far. I will get the rest finished either tonight or tomorrow. I've got to get some college homework finished!

[BigMike]

5. How could life be perpetuated at the very beginning of time? Did man have an immortal soul, or was there an external source of life that man needed to partake of?
Genesis 2:9 – And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (NKJV)
Notice that the tree of life was in the garden of Eden. And we know that Adam and Eve had to continue eating from the tree of life in order to continue living. The point is that Adam and Eve did not have immortality residing within themselves. They did not have an immortal soul inside their body. Because their only source of immortality was in continuously partaking from God's tree. The only way to perpetuate or prolong their life was by partaking of the tree outside of them. The immortality was in the tree, not in them.

You'll notice that God said in Genesis 2:17, that if they ate from the tree of good and evil they would surely die:
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (NKJV)

   Question: If man was immortal by nature, what God was saying was absolute foolishness, and I am not intending to be sacrilegious. If man had an immortal soul, then when God said "you will surely die" he was lying. If man had an immortal soul then he couldn't die.

   Go with me to Genesis 3:22-24, and we will see that man was not immortal by nature, and in fact when he sinned he was cast out of the garden, he could no longer eat from the tree of life, and therefore he lost the possibility of continuing his life:
(22) Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (NKJV)
.......What would happen if man ate from the tree of life? He would live forever. By the way, he had to continue eating from the tree of life, it wasn't enough just to eat once, it was kind of like a battery charger. You say how do we know that? Well because even when sin is done away with at the end of time, the Bible says that we will go from month to month to eat from the tree of life, even in eternity (see Rev. 2:7 & 22:2) It is a continual eating. Continuing with verse 23:
(23) therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. (24) So He drove out the man and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. (NKJV)
   So man was prohibited from eating of the tree of life, and therefore he no longer was going to live forever.

   Incidentally, if man is by nature immortal, then why would Jesus bother to come to die to give us what we already had? Really this idea of the immortality of the soul makes the death of Jesus unnecessary. Because if I am immortal, if I cannot die, why would Jesus die to give me that which I already posses?

So the only way life could be perpetuated was by partaking of the tree of life. When man sinned, he was prohibited from the tree of life, and therefore he was doomed to death.

[BigMike]

6. What is death according to the Bible?
Also, what happens to the body and to the spirit or the breath at death? And therefore what happens to the soul?

Genesis 3:19 – Here God is speaking to Adam - In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return. (NKJV)
   Notice it doesn't say your body is dust and only part of you will return to the dust, God says 'you are dust and to dust you will return.' In other words man was going to be like he was before he was created. You can't return to the dust unless you were taken out of the dust. So when a person dies, the body returns to the dust, it disintegrates, it decays. Of course this is true: If you open up a grave many years after the person has died, the body has decomposed, and the individual has been reduced to dust.

   So the real question is what happens with the spirit or the breath when a person dies?
John 19:30 – This is what happened to Jesus when he died – So when Jesus, had received the sour wine, He said it is finished, and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit. (NKJV)

   What did Jesus give up? His spirit. The King James Version says He gave up "the ghost." But what did Jesus do? When He said "it is finished," Jesus breathed his last. In other words he expired. To give up the spirit is means to expire, it means to breathe your last. Do you remember that the spirit is in the nostrils, and you use your nostrils to breath, so when Jesus on the cross died, He expired and He breathed no more.

   We have some other examples in the New Testament:
We have the death of Herod. In Acts 12:23, it says that Herod died, and he "gave up the ghost." He gave up the spirit, he gave up his breath, he breathed his last, he expired.

   You'll find this same phenomenon with the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:5 and 5:10. If you know the story, Ananias lied to God, and when he heard what Peter told him, he dropped dead and "gave up the ghost." The same thing happened to his wife Sapphira who told the same lie and verse 10 tells us that she "yielded up the ghost." She expired, and then the people came and in the same verse they carried away her dead body.
   So once again, when a person dies, the spirit or the breath leaves the body, and returns to God. From dust you are and from dust you shall return. In other words the body does not function any more, it doesn't breathe any more, it doesn't energize anymore. The body returns to the dust.

[scott85runner]

bigmike,this thread seems to have turned into a sermon and alot of quotes from the bible.i fully realize the bible exists as does the koran and lots of other religous writings.i guess i started this thread to see why religous people believe in their religion as opposed to other religions.if i were hindu or budhist or muslim i could pop in this thread and quote lines from whatever book suites my chosen religion bbut that still wouldnt prove they were right.once again just because there is evidence that historical events spoken of in the bible  took place does not meen that everything in the bible is true.so there is evidence there was once a big flood on earth,does this meen noah cruised around it in a boat.no it doesnt.lets not forget that many history books and many "historical documents" were  written by christians.the predictions and predicted outcomes coming true you speek of are proven by, once again,the bible.how conveniant it is that the bible states a prediction then the bible states its own prediction came true .i want someone to prove god exists without quoting the bible,actual proof any of the unbelievable things in the bible happened.in my opinion the bible isnt true just because the bible says so.if all these amazing things actually happened why are there no other documents that speak of them?i believe peoples religous beliefs are based mostly on the environment they were brought up in,if your biggest chlidhood influences were muslim in nature you would be on here quoting mohammed and not jesus.

[Doof]

good point you got there scott


but to prove "god" is real will never be done. it is something that you personaly have to believe in and put faith into. if in the after life if you have one is when you could possibly find out all unanswered ?s. because you would be able i assume to time travel and go back and check stuff out for yourself and prove things to yourself as being true and what not

[scott85runner]

slickwilly it just seems funny to me how it will only be proven in the afterlife that god is real.if i believe in and have faith in god does this meen that he has to exist in reality?what are all the believers going to do when they die and its proven that the bible was another fairytale?thats right there going to rot in the ground with all the other people who have died.i meen what could you possibly do,areyou going to sue the authors of the bible.the folks who wrote the bible knew when the believers figure out it isnt true it would be to late for them to complain about it because dead people dont complain.conveniant once again.thats where the whole "faith" thing comes into play.you have to have "faith" in the bible because it is so impossible to believe when put to the test.does anyone ever ask you to have faith in the sun coming up tomorrow.no they dont ,because you have seen it everyday of your life and you can prove its there.anyone ever ask you to have faith that two plus two is four,no because you know it is and it can be proven.i said it before and ill say it again,faith is believing in something you know isnt true.

[BigMike]

7. Where does man go when he dies? What happens in the interim period between death and when Jesus comes?
We need to let the Bible tell us the answer. Many people think that when you die you either go to heaven, or your soul goes to hell if you are wicked, or perhaps to an intermediate period to a place called purgatory, or perhaps to limbo, there are all kinds of different categories where people supposedly go.

But what does the Bible have to say about the retaining place where people go when they die?

John 5:28-29 - Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (NKJV)

Where does the Bible say the dead are after their death and before the resurrection? They are in their graves and when Jesus returns the Bible tells us that the "come forth."

Of course we have the story of Lazarus. Lazarus was a good friend of Jesus', and he died, and Jesus came to his tomb where Lazarus was laid, and Jesus said our friend Lazarus is what? Our friend Lazarus is sleeping:
John 11:11 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, and I may awake him out of sleep. (KJV)

Now isn't that interesting? Jesus compares Death with Sleep.
Did you know that over 50 times in the Bible death is compared do sleep.

Now you ask why would Death be compared to Sleep? I believe there are 3 reasons:
1)   Because when we sleep, we rest. And when people die, they rest. I've seen people who have suffered intensely during their lives. They've gotten very ill in the last days of their lives, and when they die, they finally rest. Revelation 14:13 tells us that the dead "may rest from their labors."
2)   The second reason why I believe death is compared to sleep is because in death, like in sleep, you are unconscious about what's happening around you.
3)   The third reason is that as from sleep you awaken, in the same way from death you will awaken. The only difference is that in death you sleep a little longer than you do when you go to bed at night.

So the Bible over 50 times refers to death as sleep. When people are in their graves, they are sleeping until the moment Jesus comes to resurrect them from the dead.

      I will mention some texts briefly. You can study them in more detail if you wish. Ecclesiastics 9:5-6,10, says "the living know that they will die, but the dead know not anything." Not anything really means nothing. They don't have any memory at all whatsoever.
Psalms 6:5 says that in the grave there is "no remembrance of God," there is no thanking God in death.
Psalms 115:17 explains that the dead do not praise the Lord, neither do those who go down into silence.
Psalms 146:4 tells us that the plans of people who die, perish with them.
In Psalms 104:29-30 we are told that individuals who die return to the dust.
Acts 2:29,34 we find that David did not ascent to heaven. Some people say that this is referring to before Christ died, and after Christ resurrected, that he took David with Him to heaven. That is an interesting concept. Do you know that Peter is saying this after Jesus has already died on the cross and has already resurrected and ascended to heaven? This is being said on the day of pentacost. So Peter is saying that David is still in the grave and has "not ascended into heaven."
In Isaiah 38:18-19 we find very clearly that the dead offer no thanks, they offer no praise, and they can not hope for God's truth.

So the Bible is very clear that when a person dies, he or she goes to the grave, is unconscious, asleep, until the moment of the resurrection.

[Doof]

i will have to get back toyou on that one.... ive been up to long to think that hard and long and ge into depth about it....

tomorrow when i get off work ill re-read and try to think of something worth your time of reading and coming up with a response to

[Doof]

ans same with all that you have posted today big mike

[scott85runner]

bigmike although i cant believe any of the things you have written in these previous posts i do respect and appreciate the time and trouble you have spent posting your pastors sermon.thanks also to you slickwily for the replies to my post.

[scott85runner]

i dont think i could ever state my point as well as this web site.     dim.com/~randl/tcont.htm.     everyone on both sides of the debate should find it interesting.read the whole thing even if it pisses you off,the things stated at this web site can be PROVEN.i especially like the quote by homer simpson "what if we chose the wrong religion?we just making god madder and madder every sunday."

[BigMike]

Well, I do have to admit that I've brought the attitude of a sermon to this thread. Sorry for preaching like this... I'm not a preacher, but Im saying sorry for throwing so much up in the air...?

I only have a couple more points to finish with the sermon, if anyone is interested in the rest of it.

You guys have good arguments. One thing I would like to say is that I have not had a real revelation of God in my life yet. I *firmly* believe God has changed my life and I would not be where I am today without His help, but it has been a life long process that I can not give 1 story to explain what God has done to me. But I've had many such stories told to me by friends (and of course Church speakers) who had a life changing experience that could only have come from God. For them, there is no doubt, no doubt that God is real and that he exists. I am willing to bet that you guys have heard of such stories through acquaintances.

My point is this: You guys say that you will never know if God is rear or not until after you die.

but to prove "god" is real will never be done. it is something that you personaly have to believe in and put faith into. if in the after life if you have one is when you could possibly find out all unanswered ?s.

I want to say that if you believe in God, and if you believe the stories of the Bible, they show that God is a loving God and he wants nothing else than for you to discover Him. There are countless stories of people who truly devoted 100% of their time and energy for God, and many of them had personal relationships with God. God spoke and communicated directly to them. That is proof enough for me, for instance, as Elisha offered a sacrifice to God, after he prayed, fire came down from Heaven and not only burned his offering, but it burned and melted all of the stones and rocks that the alter was built of. I am pretty sure that Elisha was not confused on if there was a God or not, and he was just a human like you and me...

The Bible says that if you earnestly seek God as you would seek for gold, then you _will_ find him. The challenge is up to you.

Talking about God without using the Bible will be pretty difficult since that is the only written form of communication we have from Him. God speaks to us through the Bible.

We can ask the "who wrote what" game without God or the Bible. Let me ask, who wrote the Declaration of Independence? Did Thomas Jefferson help write it? Are you sure? Why do you believe this? Even for a modern day article, we must use faith to accept something that we can in no way prove to be true.

what are all the believers going to do when they die and its proven that the bible was another fairytale?thats right there going to rot in the ground with all the other people who have died.

There are two keys to this question.

1) God has already promised for those who choose to worship Him and follow in his footsteps, that they will have a life full of happiness and security that no man may move.

I know we are not wanting to mention any Bible texts, but its the only way to confirm. There are many other promise texts in the Bible, these are just a couple ones of the top of my head:

But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Isaiah 40:31, KJV

Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mounth of the Lord hath spoken it. Isaiah 58:14, KJV

2) What promises does this live give you without God? God isn't a lukewarm relationship. You can't put one foot in and keep one foot out. Unless you put your trust in God, it will be very difficult for him to take care of you if you do not ask him honestly for help. This is why He gives us a free will, free to choose what do to. Free to accept or reject Him. I feel that without God, there is just life. And that is it. I die, and its game over. But with God, not only is their a hope of life after death, but God has promised to me and to you that if you choose to live your life for Him, then he will cause you to fly like a eagle! You will never become tired again! That is pretty amazing.





Check this story out:

Imagine that once upon a time there is a hunter and his dog hunting birds. They quietly make their way to a grassy field where some birds are hanging out. Suddenly the birds notice they are there, and they begin to fly away. So the hunter raises his riffle and fires twice, hitting two birds.

One bird falls straight to the ground and is totally dead, a mortal hit.

But the other bird spins out of control and falls to the ground, and starts struggling trying to get back into the air. The hunter yells to his dog, "Go get that one boy!" and the dog takes off at full speed to get this bird who is struggling on the ground trying to stand up and possibly fly away.



Ok. This story is an example of how Satan treats Gods people here on earth. The one bird who is killed instantly and is completely dead represents a person who has fallen far from God and is living a life full of corruption. The other bird who has been wounded and is struggling represents someone who has recently found God in their life and is trying to get into the air. Notice how the hunter is not concerned with the dead bird that is not moving. He knows it is dead and does not care about it. So he sends his dog after the bird that is struggling hoping that his dog will get their in time to put a death bite into the bird.

This is why you can see people who are very very wicked and yet seem to have a great life. They have nice cars, a nice house, lots of gold jewelry, but they have invested their time and money into a material life that they can not keep after they die. These people are not a threat to Satan..

But instead Satan devotes his energy to people who are struggling in life. People who are trying to get back into the Air, who need God's help to wound their wing so they may fly once more. These are the people who Satan must target, and I think this is why things seem so unfair in life.

God cannot help us unless we first ask Him for help.
The best way for someone to explain God to someone else is to use a personal experience. You know, I can sit here and type into the forum telling you 101 things about God, but these are not my words or stories, they are someone elses. But if I have a real experience that God showed me, then it is something that you can not take away from me, and it is not hearsay or :bull crap:. As I mentioned when I started this post, I do not have 1 single story to share or else I would. I am patient in the Lord because he has promised me that my patience will be rewarded. Amen.


BigMike

[blackdiamond]

I think a lot of people doubt God, or the existence of a god, because belief in God is somewhat intangible which is why it takes faith.  Not everyone gets to hear God's voice audibly like a few people in the Bible did.  There are people that have had very real experience with supernatural forces, which I believe to be the devil and his angels, and this fact is huge for me.  If "evil" exists then that only reinforces the fact that God exists.  Go to www.adventistbookcenter.com and order a copy of the book "Trip into the Supernatural" by Roger Morneau for an amazing story about his life.  It is published by an Adventist publishing house so it isn't available other places.  My pastor mentioned an expereince this past Sabbath where he heard the voice of an evil spirit.  The supernatural does exist.

[93tonkatoy]

slickwilly it just seems funny to me how it will only be proven in the afterlife that god is real.if i believe in and have faith in god does this meen that he has to exist in reality?what are all the believers going to do when they die and its proven that the bible was another fairytale?thats right there going to rot in the ground with all the other people who have died.i meen what could you possibly do,areyou going to sue the authors of the bible.the folks who wrote the bible knew when the believers figure out it isnt true it would be to late for them to complain about it because dead people dont complain.conveniant once again.thats where the whole "faith" thing comes into play.you have to have "faith" in the bible because it is so impossible to believe when put to the test.does anyone ever ask you to have faith in the sun coming up tomorrow.no they dont ,because you have seen it everyday of your life and you can prove its there.anyone ever ask you to have faith that two plus two is four,no because you know it is and it can be proven.i said it before and ill say it again,faith is believing in something you know isnt true.

If you want to hear someone's testament to the existence of God, read this: http://jerrygrote.com/sept__11,_2001.htm  If you cannot believe that God exists after ALL of this happened to this many people all at the same time, on the same day, which is too great to remain a total coincidence, IMHO, then you will have to ask God to reveal himself to you personally. Then, all i can say, is be ready for the answer.

The REALITY of God's existence will NEVER be proven to you by someone else. It will be a revelation from God that will only prove his existence to you, in your life, where you are.

And FAITH, by definition, is the belief in something for which there is no proof. That does not mean that you are believing in something that is not true.

You sound like a pretty well educated person in that you seem to want to base things on scientific fact and observable events. So, I have a question for you. I will assume that you agree with the "Big Bang" theory. Science states that "matter can neither be created or destroyed." My question is this: Where did the matter and energy that comprised the event originate? Where did it come from? How did it come to be? What or who created it?

And BigMike, I will have some points to make about my beliefs on some of the points you made in the "sermon." Good job, though. We all need a good sermon every once in a while.

[BigMike]

I still need to finish the last points of above, but I just came across this and I thought I would share:

Jesus had no servants, yet they called Him Master.

Had no degree, yet they called Him Teacher.

Had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer.

Had no army, yet kings feared Him.

He won no military battles, yet He conquered the world.

He committed no crime, yet they crucified Him.

He was buried in a tomb, yet He lives today.

Feel honored to serve such a Leader who loves us.

[Blingn]

that is awesome Mike    I want to put that in my sig line

[*FFC*]

Wow.. I gotta take some time and read *all* of this. 

There is a LOT of good info here!

[germ]

I know I'm late in the game, but thought I'd add a few thoughts. By the way, some very interesting comments made. Here are some of my thoughts on comments made by various people, in no particular order, and not neccesarily connected to each other...

if your families beliefs are your beliefs then how can you honestly believe they are correct and not just based on an ingrained bias toward the way you were raised.how often do you here of a person being brought up christain and then just one day realizing that an opposing religion makes more sense to them and converting.not to often.how could any  omnipotent god deny entrance into heaven because a person was born into the "wrong" religion beyond there control.what if i were born in an area of the world where christianity had never been introduced but i was a good person in all aspects of life.would i be turned away at the gates because of geography?

You bring up a good point here. I suppose the answer actually lies in the fact that we are encouraged to explore the world around us, and to learn as much as possible about ourselves. If you research, with an open mind, the answers will come. People who follow blindly just because they were raised a certain way, are no more in touch with God/budda/Muhammed or whoever else is the center of their religion than someone who cant decide which religion is "right". It is the person who questions their beliefs, then goes out to search for the answer who is able to develop a true understanding of why they believe what they believe. Once you have this understanding, then knowlege will follow.

religious beliefs are solely based on faith,and i cant seem to get my head around this faith thing.

There are alot of things in daily life that are based on faith, not just religion. In school we're taught that matter is made of atoms. No one that I know has ever seen an atom. We're told that they can be seen by scanning electron microscopes, but where do you get one of those? What about air. We're told that its made of oxygen. Can you see oxygen? I can't. The fact that we breath, and continue to live supports that there is oxygen in the air, but there are lots of other gasses as well...and I can't see those either. My point is that we believe certain things based on our experience. Some of us have had life altering experiences that make it perfectly sensible to believe in God, others believe because they are told they should, others question, which is what I see you doing. I would encourage you to keep an open mind, and continue to seek the truth. If you earnestly ask God to make himself known to you, it will happen. You will know it as soon as it happens.

...what i dont understand is how "good christians" can preech to others about how they are a bad person because they do not believe in what the other does. and with that who is the judge if you get into "heaven and hell"?? if "god" made people to live life, then he is the only one who can judge reguardless of what you have done in your life.

This is a huge problem if you ask me. I don't like anyone telling me what my relationship with God is supposed to look like. I find some of the most judgmental people in the world are the "religous zeolots". Can't stand them! Unfortunatly, these are the people who seem to be the most visible, and unfortunatly will turn more people away from God than attract them. The Bible tells us that only God can pass judgement. These folks have no buisness telling anyone their relaionship with God is bad because it doesn't conform with their beliefs. Everyone has a very individual relationship with God that is specific to where they are in the process of learning about God. It is also a very fluid and fluctuating relationship.

...another thing that has always bothered me about christianity is that it seems to tell you to treat everyone a certain way and live a certain kind of life and YOU will be rewarded with eternal life and want for nothing after you DIE.how convenient that your reward comes after your death,what do you do after you die and nothing happens like the book says...how about treating people right and living right just simply because its the right thing to do and not because of some afterlife reward?

The way I view this is that Christianity really give you a moral compass to live by, allowing you to use it as a reference and to help guide you through the minefield of life. The realtime, tangible reward is a happy, content and fulfilling life, and "oh by the way" you can also get eternal life through salvation. It is similar to Karma, in that if you do good things, then good things will come to you. Not particularly complicated. True Christians follow the commandments because it is pleasing to God, and they wish to please him. Just like you would like to please your wife/girlfriend and will do things that you know will make her happy. God just tells us what the reward will be for doing what he asks, and what you risk loosing if you choose not to follow his commandments.

...i always had these questions that iwas afraid to ask or even really think about.it never really made sense that god would allow kids to get cancer or be abducted and killed.how does an all loving god allow the atrocities that happen to good people.i would pray and never see any change in the things i prayed about.my mom would tell me god works in mysterious ways,they never seemed mysterious to me it just seemed like god wasnt working at all.i would see bad things happen to believers just as often as non believers and one day the answer just seemed to come to me, the reason prayers dont get answered,kids get murdered and humans are allowed to be so cruel to one another is because there is no god...

This is one of the most difficult things to discuss, because it just doesn't seem fair. God gave us free choice, and in doing so allows things to happen, that we may or may not undestand or like. Because I believe in God, I can make sense of this, but it may seem like rationalization to someone who doesn't believe. The way I see it is that there is a huge conflict between God and satan. (You can reference the other posts on the religion thread where we discussed this at length) In the end, God is trying to "save" as many people as he can, while satan is trying to "seduce" as many as he can, so that he can pull them away from God. In my belief, God will sometimes use others as a tool or a conduit to bring others too him. If allowing a child to get cancer and die will cause his parents to ask God "why", and give him the opportunity to become a part of their live and possibly "save" them, then to God this was a worthwhile endeavor. I would like to think that the child is already "saved", and so the childs purpose on this earth was to bring his parents to God. Think about how many people started going to "church" again after Sept 11. Maybe a short (hopefully) example from my life will better illuminate this.

A few years ago, a young lady firefighter died here locally in a wildland fire. As is customary, the CDF/Fire family had a large funeral, which I attended (she had previously been one of my patients). The pastors who presided, did an excellent job of not being "too religous", but talked about how she was a devout Christian, read her bible every day, and was a well respected and loved peer as well as an outstanding member of society. Some very interesting things happened during her funeral, which are hard to explain, but they were very obvious to all who were paying attention. For example, she had written a song, where she described her spirit as an eagle flying, which they played during the ceremony. Later on, two helicopters flew in, (she was on a fast-attack helo crew) turned and faced each other then flew away over the hillside, sideways. As the helicopters flew in, an eagle flew inbetween the helicopters and circled several times before flying away in the opposite direction of where the helos were going. There are a few other examples, but to respect brevity, I'll not post them all right now.

I spoke with one of the fire captains a couple of months after the funeral, and she told me about one young firefighter on her crew, who after the funeral started reading a bible, and now always kept a copy on the dashboad of the fire engine, and has become a christian. The way I see this, is that in God's opinion, (not that I can speak for God, but you get the idea), He knew that she was already going to be saved, and this was an opportunity for him to bring a large number of people together and hear about his love. If he was able to save one person, than it was worth it. Remember, His goals are much different than ours. I hope that made some sense.

OK it's 1am, and I need some sleep in order to function tomorrow (today???). I'll check in later, and see what has been going on. Please feel free to comment on any of my comments, as they are open to discussion and respectful debate.

Erik

[BLACKDOG]

I know I'm late in the game, but thought I'd add a few thoughts. By the way, some very interesting comments made. Here are some of my thoughts on comments made by various people, in no particular order, and not neccesarily connected to each other...


This is a huge problem if you ask me. I don't like anyone telling me what my relationship with God is supposed to look like. I find some of the most judgmental people in the world are the "religous zeolots". Can't stand them! Unfortunatly, these are the people who seem to be the most visible, and unfortunatly will turn more people away from God than attract them. The Bible tells us that only God can pass judgement. These folks have no buisness telling anyone their relaionship with God is bad because it doesn't conform with their beliefs. Everyone has a very individual relationship with God that is specific to where they are in the process of learning about God. It is also a very fluid and fluctuating relationship.

I agree fully with you hear.  It is the Christians (I speak widely, not all are this way) that are driving people away from God. Their misinterpretation of His Word, their overzealousness in their actions, and their attitude toward others is very sobering.  I personally have had some serious issues with people in the church I used to go to, and I cannot understand that attitude.

Maybe a short (hopefully) example from my life will better illuminate this.

A few years ago, a young lady firefighter died here locally in a wildland fire. As is customary, the CDF/Fire family had a large funeral, which I attended (she had previously been one of my patients). The pastors who presided, did an excellent job of not being "too religous", but talked about how she was a devout Christian, read her bible every day, and was a well respected and loved peer as well as an outstanding member of society. Some very interesting things happened during her funeral, which are hard to explain, but they were very obvious to all who were paying attention. For example, she had written a song, where she described her spirit as an eagle flying, which they played during the ceremony. Later on, two helicopters flew in, (she was on a fast-attack helo crew) turned and faced each other then flew away over the hillside, sideways. As the helicopters flew in, an eagle flew inbetween the helicopters and circled several times before flying away in the opposite direction of where the helos were going. There are a few other examples, but to respect brevity, I'll not post them all right now.

I spoke with one of the fire captains a couple of months after the funeral, and she told me about one young firefighter on her crew, who after the funeral started reading a bible, and now always kept a copy on the dashboad of the fire engine, and has become a christian. The way I see this, is that in God's opinion, (not that I can speak for God, but you get the idea), He knew that she was already going to be saved, and this was an opportunity for him to bring a large number of people together and hear about his love. If he was able to save one person, than it was worth it. Remember, His goals are much different than ours. I hope that made some sense.

OK it's 1am, and I need some sleep in order to function tomorrow (today???). I'll check in later, and see what has been going on. Please feel free to comment on any of my comments, as they are open to discussion and respectful debate.

Erik

Germ, when you get a chance, I'd like to hear some more of the examples, either here or in PM form.  I love hearing these stories, to me there is no greater example of how God works, and how His plan moves forward. 

[germ]

Well, another "odd" thing that happened, is that it was in late August (as I recall), and it was typically about 110f. The day before her funeral, it rained all day. The day before that was over 100 degrees, this odd storm blew in, it rained for 1 full day, then it went back to 100+ degrees. The day of her funeral it was a balmy 80+ degrees instead of the higher temps. We all sat and talked about how God had given the area rain so that the fire risk was low the day that we were to celebrate her life. The pastors even mentioned it. Very very unusual, as we typically don't see any rain from end of May until maybe late September.

The storm also provided a nice patchy cloud cover. Remember as a kid lying on the grass and making believe you could see bunnies and monsters in the clouds? On this day I personally saw at least 3 clouds that "looked" like angels. I was told of several others that were different than the ones I saw. Also, during the ending prayer, a cloud covered the sun, which was behind us at this point. I looked up as the pastor was praying, and noticed that there was a single ray of light that was shining on us.

I'm sure that many took all of this as coincidence, but I know that everyone of my staff (we closed the clinic that day, and we all went to the funeral) was moved by the quiet presence of God. One of my staff was a devout, argue till your spitting atheist, and even she was moved and began to question her beliefs. Not sure if she ever pursued it though, she left for the correctional department not too long afterwards.

I think many on this board have stories to tell of how they questioned their faith, and asked God to reveal himself to them. Some are probably pretty dramatic, and others are very sublime, but each one was exactly what that person needed to confirm for themselves the presence and love of God in their life.

Erik

[Doof]

heres a brain buster for ya:


if god created all this....who created god?

[*FFC*]

heres a brain buster for ya:


if god created all this....who created god?

Nobody.  He's Eternal

[Lowrider]

heres a brain buster for ya:


if god created all this....who created god?

I can almost hear heads exploding as I type.

You see, something as complex as the universe HAS to have a creator, and to create something as complex as the universe, its creator would have to be MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more complex. But somehow the universe's creator needs no explanation beyond "He just always existed". As if that explains anything.