Author Topic: Rear axle Question (Read 6898 times)

Petzl21 · « **on:** May 19, 2007, 11:32:09 AM »

Well, i got to the junk yard today, and I just picked up an IFS rear axle and an IFS steering box, that i am going to use on my 84 4runner. I am wondering if i should reinforce the end of the axle. The IFS rear axle i have seems to taper down vs the pre 86 axle i have. See pics to see what i am talking about.

Both rear's (IFS is further away)

Side by side (you can see the diff in lenght

The IFS rear

Pre 86 rear

So, what should i do about it, or is it fine? Also, i have not measured, but are the perches the same distance apart?

I am going to be putting the 5" marlin kit on the 84 4runner. I cut the stock perches off, and point the rear axle up to the t-case right?

Thanks for any input!

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #1 on:** May 19, 2007, 11:40:13 AM »

I think you will be alright. I know people that have twisted the tubes but gussets in thoses places probably won't stop that.

46&2 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 19, 2007, 01:26:35 PM »

The spring perches are in the same spot on the pre 86 and post. I swapped an 88 rear axle into my 85 and it fit like a glove. You don't need to reinforce the ends, like alwayzbroken said at the point of twisting the housing thats not going to do much. As for cutting and rewelding the perches, you could do that but im not sure its really necesssary. I have about 4 inches of lift in the rear of my 4runner and my pinion angle was fine. I am only running 35s though. My front pinion angle is what sucks, the rear has so much distance from the tcase to third member it didnt need changing. Might want to just bolt it all up and check how it looks before you start cutting and rewelding.

Petzl21 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2007, 08:04:32 PM »

Thanks for the info. I will just clean it up and throw it under and see how the pinion angle is. I am going to be running the 5" marlin kit with a lift shackle. I also may want to point the pinion up to keep it out of the rocks a bit too.

So, what are some options for a fix for the front? I have the stock DC shaft up front at the moment. I have another front shaft that only has a u-joint at the top, and one at the bottom, like the rear. It seems to be able to handle more of an angle without binding. What do people run up front, and how do they fix the front angle??

dirtchicken · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2007, 09:48:19 PM »

There's a few things you can do to fix the front driveshaft angle. Hi pinion 3rd, dual cases or cut and turn the knuckle balls.

AaronB · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2007, 01:24:42 AM »

i have dual cases and it didnt do crap for the angle. your best bet is a HP third

FIREBALL · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2007, 08:11:39 AM »

Everyone I know that switched to a non CV front shaft ended up with a bunch of vibration. If you don't want to go hp you could cut and turn the front end and rotate the pinion up.

~tc~ · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2007, 04:19:38 PM »

Why wouldn't you gusset the axle while it's out? I don't think the necking down on the ends is a problem, but having witnessed the effect of a semifloating rear with a bent housing (ie wheel and shaft leaving the truck at ~45 MPH), I would do what you could to strengthen the housing while it's out of the truck!

I would also do a FROR full-floater, but that's considerable $$$ that can wait for later.

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2007, 09:59:50 PM »

Quote from: ~tc~ on May 20, 2007, 04:19:38 PM

Why wouldn't you gusset the axle while it's out? I don't think the necking down on the ends is a problem, but having witnessed the effect of a semifloating rear with a bent housing (ie wheel and shaft leaving the truck at ~45 MPH), I would do what you could to strengthen the housing while it's out of the truck!

A busted shaft will not cause a Toyota wheel to come off. They are bolted in at the flange.

~tc~ · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:41:38 PM »

No they're not! The rear is semi-floating, held in by the pressed on bearing.

Admittedly, NOBODY on TTORA or yotatech had ever heard of it happening, but it sure as hell CAN happen!

DTB · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:54:13 PM »

Wermz84 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:58:18 PM »

Quote from: DirToyBoy on May 21, 2007, 06:54:13 PM

x2

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #12 on:** May 21, 2007, 07:40:40 PM »

Quote from: ~tc~ on May 21, 2007, 06:41:38 PM

No they're not! The rear is semi-floating, held in by the pressed on bearing.

Admittedly, NOBODY on TTORA or yotatech had ever heard of it happening, but it sure as hell CAN happen!

Yes they are. There are 4 bolts that hold the bearing assembly in, which holds the axle shaft. The shaft did not cause the axleshaft to come out from the looks of the picture. The bearing would have to fail because a shaft alone breaking will not cause the axle to come out. Oh and Yota Tech and TTORA are for for toolbags.

~tc~ · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2007, 08:31:58 PM »

Dude - look up the definition of "semifloating".

The bearing is pressed onto the shaft - that friction force is the only thing holding your axle in. If the shaft fails, the bearing will likely fail soon after, if the bearing fails, the axle WILL come out.

At least they're toolbags who understand how this

REALLY works and aren't deluded by what they would like to think is how it works.

brainlessfool · « **Reply #14 on:** May 21, 2007, 08:42:32 PM »

yup. if an axle brecks and the bearing goes, it could come out. butt why with it making all noise would ya keep driving it?

years ago seen an old ford do it to.

DTB · « **Reply #15 on:** May 21, 2007, 08:45:21 PM »

no reason to call anyone a tool bag

there are 2 types of semi floaters: c clips and bearings. when an axleshaft on a C-clip assembly breaks, there is nothing left holding the axleshaft in the housing so the tire and wheel assembly will readily separate from the vehicle. On a pressed bearing-type axle, the wheel and tire will usually remain intact , with the bearing pressed to the axleshaft holding the assembly together.

~tc~ · « **Reply #16 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:22:40 PM »

Quote from: DirToyBoy on May 21, 2007, 08:45:21 PM

On a pressed bearing-type axle, the wheel and tire will usually remain intact , with the bearing pressed to the axleshaft holding the assembly together.

Exactly - and why nobody had ever seen it happen before.

BTW - it wasn't making any noises. I was VERY surprised to feel the back end of the truck drop, look out the window and see the wheel bouncing by!

After having this happen, I wsa thinking ... how would you replace a rear axle shaft if it were to fail on the trail? Have to carry an assembled one with the bearings and seals pressed on already as a spare?

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #17 on:** May 22, 2007, 12:24:51 AM »

Quote from: alwayzbroken on May 21, 2007, 07:40:40 PM

The bearing would have to fail because a shaft alone breaking will not cause the axle to come out.

And this statement is wrong how

It sounds very similar to this statement

Quote from: ~tc~ on May 21, 2007, 08:31:58 PM

if the bearing fails, the axle WILL come out.

and this statement summarizes what I have been trying to say

Quote from: DirToyBoy on May 21, 2007, 08:45:21 PM

On a pressed bearing-type axle, the wheel and tire will usually remain intact , with the bearing pressed to the axleshaft holding the assembly together.

I understand exactly how it works

I like how DTB says the exact same thing in principle that I said and you agree with him, while you tell me to look up the definition. You can keep running your mouth about whatever delusions I may have and try to tell me that there is not a 4 bolt flange that the pressed on bearing is bolted to that holds the axle in if you like. Even if I was to look up the definition, it still would not prove anything since all semi-floating means is that the weight of the vehicle and the torque from the drivetrain are all supported solely by the axleshaft. Your response just proves that you missed the point of what I was saying. I am not trying to say that these axles are full floating, merely that the axle shaft is retained by the bearing that is bolted to the axle housing. That being said, a broken shaft will not cause the wheel and tire to instantly slide out, that is what bearing failure will do, which brings us back full circle to my first statement that you deemed false.

Quote from: alwayzbroken on May 21, 2007, 07:40:40 PM

The bearing would have to fail because a shaft alone breaking will not cause the axle to come out.

Quote from: DirToyBoy on May 21, 2007, 08:45:21 PM

no reason to call anyone a tool bag

I'm sorry Collier, I got fired up and forgot you like Yotatech

~tc~ · « **Reply #18 on:** May 22, 2007, 07:21:19 PM »

I never said there wasn't a 4 bolt flanged connection which sandwiches the bearing. My point is that the bearing is not bolted to the shaft, it is merely held by friction and if you break a shaft, the bearing is not long for this world, and when the bearing fails you WILL lose the wheel/tire.

I'm not arguing that it will usually stay intact either - usually it will, but not forever, and probably not long enough to get home.

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #19 on:** May 22, 2007, 10:42:06 PM »

Quote from: ~tc~ on May 22, 2007, 07:21:19 PM

I never said there wasn't a 4 bolt flanged connection which sandwiches the bearing. My point is that the bearing is not bolted to the shaft, it is merely held by friction and if you break a shaft, the bearing is not long for this world, and when the bearing fails you WILL lose the wheel/tire.

Then why are you arguing in the first place when you seem to agree with me? I say that 4 bolts hold the shaft assembly in and the first words of your response is "No they're not." I never said anything about the bearing being bolted to the shaft or how long a broken shaft will stay in before the bearing gives way. You made assumptions and called me out for things I never said.

Either way, I will stop arguing before some billy bada$$ comes in here and says we are both girls and to stop because conflict hurts their delicate feelings as usual. The truth is, I like to debate issues and I like to argue harmlessly, why is a little spice every once in a while so bad?

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2007, 10:46:49 PM »

Quote from: ~tc~ on May 21, 2007, 08:31:58 PM

At least they're toolbags who understand how this REALLY works and aren't deluded by what they would like to think is how it works.

One last thing, I doubt that the majority on Yotatech really understand how it does work. Most seem to be concerned with minor issues like bolt on fender flares, upgrading from 31 to 33 inch tires and the proper way to wire up a CD player. Hardcore tech is not what that site is known for.

BUDDERS · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:29:36 PM »

I saw this happen on a overloaded 2wd dually yota when the load shifted in the bed when going around a corner. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the dually's have a 8" rear too. Funny thing was, it happened right behind a toyota dealership. They just unloaded the truck and picked up the rear with a forklift and dragged it into the dealers service drive for them to fix.

jimbo74 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:37:38 PM »

i dont know about the 1 ton toyota dualies they are wierd, and dont have a regular 6 on 5.5 bolt pattern. full floating and huge

they are not the same as the 2wd swr 1 ton toyotas that have a 8".

~tc~ · « **Reply #23 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:33:08 AM »

Quote from: alwayzbroken on May 22, 2007, 12:24:51 AM

4 bolt flange that the pressed on bearing is bolted to that holds the axle in if you like.

merely that the axle shaft is retained by the bearing that is bolted to the axle housing. That being said, a broken shaft will not cause the wheel and tire to instantly slide out, that is what bearing failure will do, which brings us back full circle to my first statement that you deemed false.

Here you mentioned twice that the bearing is bolted on.

But maybe I misread what you meant. Regardless, we seem to agree that only the friction of the pressed on bearing on the axle shaft is holding the axle in the housing.

Having witnessed the effect, there is a FROR full-floater kit in my future.

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2007, 12:21:27 PM »

Quote from: ~tc~ on May 23, 2007, 11:33:08 AM

Here you mentioned twice that the bearing is bolted on.

But maybe I misread what you meant. Regardless, we seem to agree that only the friction of the pressed on bearing on the axle shaft is holding the axle in the housing.

Having witnessed the effect, there is a FROR full-floater kit in my future.

The bearing is bolted on, not the shaft.

~tc~ · « **Reply #25 on:** May 23, 2007, 04:58:15 PM »

Um, no it's not, it's pressed on:
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/suspensionandaxle/33rearaxle.pdf

Goose · « **Reply #26 on:** May 23, 2007, 06:43:28 PM »

i had to change the seals in my rear axle, so i went ahead and changed the bearings too. $11 to have em pressed on by the local machine shop, i watched him do it, sandwhitched 4 bolt flange like you guys have been arguing over...
key notes:
*man i need a shop press
*i cant belive that how the

actually works..
i set there and pondered over it for hours... im so surprised you dont see more just... "slip" off and come out

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:32:09 PM »

Your diagram does not prove anything because it does not show anything. I happened to have quite a few axleshafts laying around so I decided to take a few snap shots to finish this once and for all. The bearing is the piece in red that is pressed into the cup around the axle shaft which is all BOLTED by the four studs into the housing.

~tc~ · « **Reply #28 on:** May 24, 2007, 06:06:33 AM »

No, the bolts hold the brake backing plate onto the housing.

The friction of the pressed on bearing holds the axle shaft in place.

alwayzbroken · « **Reply #29 on:** May 24, 2007, 01:56:47 PM »

Quote from: ~tc~ on May 24, 2007, 06:06:33 AM

No, the bolts hold the brake backing plate onto the housing.

The friction of the pressed on bearing holds the axle shaft in place.

I can't help but laugh at you! You are like a broken record. It is like trying to explain something to a small child. Yes we have established that the friction of the bearing holds the axleshaft into the housing under normal conditions since the first post about this, but what good is the friction of bearing doing on the floor of my garage like in the picture? It must be bolted to the housing to be of any use what so ever. It is the bolts that hold the whole mess onto the axle housing. Consider this scenario, that same axle in the picture is sitting on the floor of my garage. Imagine I want to install said axleshaft into my axle. The first thing I do is remove the old shaft by disconnecting the brakeline and removing the 4 BOLTS. Then I insert the new one into the housing and tighten down the 4 BOLTS.

The bearing is pressed into the bearing cup which bolts onto the housing, thus I say it is bolted on because it is part of a larger assembly that is bolted. Or consider this, this will make it really simple and obvious, why don't you install your new axle shafts and just not install any of those 4 bolts. According to you, the shafts will remain in the housing and won't slide out since the shaft is pressed to the bearing. In actuality, if you don't secure your 4 bolts, your shaft is gonna come out. It is gonna come out because it is secured to the bearing by friction, but the bearing needs to be secured (bolted) to the housing and without the 4 bolts holding the bearing assembly in, you got nothing holding in your shaft.

Petzl21 [OP]

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