6 stud knuckles

[Hottrod81]

The thing with All-Pro was bad, but not many know about that.

[megolfer]

Ya it was a crappy situation.  He has everyone believing that he quit, when in fact he didnt. Lets just say he was doing things behind Jons back that were not ethical.  Wait ethics once again comes into play.

Also when I brought that up on pirate, he sure got quiet real quick.  He dosent want any of that coming out.  They know that the truth is coming out and dont know what to do with. 

Tg has screwed many companies and is planning to screw many others.  They are already coming out with axle like FROR diamond axle.  FROR has already said that they went against the NO Competation agreemant that they made.  They stated that the axle gave more clearance than any other on the market, but could not back it with facts.  There is a rumore they are coming out with 30 spline birfs like Longs.  That was stated on the pirate threat.  Also rear axles that are similar to Poly performance.  No they come out with an dual case adaptor that and gears that they say are better than marlins but cant back it with facts.  Dont forget, Geiger had the inside on all of Marlins suppliers, and also when you are looking to merge or sell a company, you have to give up all documents to the person that is buying.  That includes Trade secrets that no one else should no.  They when the deals falls through, they use what they learned to screw marlin.  That is just poor ethics and poor business practices.  I havent seen one product that they have came out with that is original and not a copy of another product.

[Lady Di]

Ya it was a crappy situation.  He has everyone believing that he quit, when in fact he didnt. Lets just say he was doing things behind Jons back that were not ethical.  Wait ethics once again comes into play.

Coincidence? I think not! I don't know how he sleeps at night, but I guess when you have no conscience it's easy.
Unbee-freeking-leivable

[Hammer Hog]

Shame on Messer, and shame on Geiger.

It's just a matter of time before they fall.

I don't normally like to bring in the Christian card, but I will for a moment...seeing how ethics and morals are really the topic at hand.

Matt and I both claim to be Christians. Matt and I also had a conversation about that subject awhile back when things were heated.

Matt seems to be a sharp and educated guy with financial backing that will take advantage of an opportunity no matter who it effects. We all know the connection with his father-in-law that owns(ed) Die-Pro. We all know that Geiger had discovered that Marlin's products and ideas were not properly protected. We all know that once Geiger saw the opportunity to conspire with Die-Pro and take advantage of Messer's entrepreneurial skills, Trail Gear was in the works to fully take advantage of Marlin's naivitivity and work him in the ground.

Anyway, I asked Matt what he thought. He had a way of twisting everything to justify business. Matt knows I'm a Christian, and we got on the topic. I brought up the term, "Equally Yoked." He knew what I meant. I used it as in relationship to business partners as well as husband and wife. I mentioned it doesn't work well when a team is not "equally yoked." Matt then went on to say that Geiger is not his partner and justified things. He said that Geiger is just an employee that he hired...period. BTW, Geiger is NOT a believer. Geiger has told me that first hand while wheeling Outer Limits back when he was with Marlin.

Anyway, I really do believe that a successful business needs to be equally yoked, weather it be a KEY "employee" or a partner(s). Matt know all too well what he's doing by allowing Geiger to hold and share the reighns...or he wouldn't be on the path he's on.

Who knows, maybe Geiger will wake up someday realizing what damage he's done. But he shows no signs at the least. And Matt is letting him run the ship. So far they are making a mark. But look at what costs...friends, businesses, reputation, high cost of advertising...to smooth things out to look good, etc.

My .02

BTW, if I ever need a product from TG, and I can't get it anywhere else, I will go without.

What a bunch of copy-cats...stealing other's work. Steal Gear will fall...sooner or later.

[megolfer]

well said

[boggerunner]

Hammer Hog, i hope u dont mind i pasted your quote on pirate

[Wilson]

I wouldn't mind hearing mroe about the whole Geeker vs Jaba the Bundrant thing....That disappeared almost as fast as a TG thread in the mini section on pirate.

[DRM]

Anyway, I really do believe that a successful business needs to be equally yoked, weather it be a KEY "employee" or a partner(s). Matt know all too well what he's doing by allowing Geiger to hold and share the reighns...or he wouldn't be on the path he's on.

Some good thoughts there, and I for one appreciate the perspective.


So I ask - What does Marlin think of all the people who claim to be friends and supporters of his - acting like they are?  Does Marlin turn a blind eye to the childish actions of those who seem to have intimate knowledge of the situation, or is he in full agreement with their actions and words?

What does Marlin think about these friends and supporters creating supposedly anonymous second accounts on another board for the sole purpose of publicly airing his private business dealings?

Personally, I'd suggest to Marlin that he might want to consider what harm these "friends and supporters" might be doing to his good name with their rabid retaliatory attacks - whether justified in truth or not.  I know Marlin wouldn't act childish like this... and I hate to think he condones the kind of crudeness taking place in his name.

Oh, and I'm still running the same #237 MC05 adapter I got from Marlin a looooong time ago - and I refuse to replace it with anyone else's adapter

[Lady Di]

Hammer Hog, i hope u dont mind i pasted your quote on pirate

  I hope he didn't mind!

[Lady Di]

BTW, Geiger is NOT a believer. Geiger has told me that first hand while wheeling Outer Limits back when he was with Marlin.

http://www.myspace.com/geigerchris

nope, he's agnostic.

[Cheesemaker]

It's really sad, to see how low one man can get!  And to get everybody out there to see just one side of things!  I've sat and watched how TG is always bringing out new stuff!  But it's all copies!  Where is the one item that differentiates them from anybody else?    

Thieves!!  Is the one thing that makes them different from anybody else! 

And to know what Matt and Geiger was planning to do to the man that revolutionized the industry. 

[Loki]

Some good thoughts there, and I for one appreciate the perspective.


So I ask - What does Marlin think of all the people who claim to be friends and supporters of his - acting like they are?  Does Marlin turn a blind eye to the childish actions of those who seem to have intimate knowledge of the situation, or is he in full agreement with their actions and words?

What does Marlin think about these friends and supporters creating supposedly anonymous second accounts on another board for the sole purpose of publicly airing his private business dealings?

Personally, I'd suggest to Marlin that he might want to consider what harm these "friends and supporters" might be doing to his good name with their rabid retaliatory attacks - whether justified in truth or not.  I know Marlin wouldn't act childish like this... and I hate to think he condones the kind of crudeness taking place in his name.

I'm just hear reading, but tis is interesting. I'm not biased one way or the other.

[Cheesemaker]

Did TG get permission to use the Marlin name in representing "THEIR" new product?

   "Six Shooter KnucklesTM    are a Marlin Crawler design and are manufactured exclusively by Trail-Gear Inc."  quoted directly from their site! 

[Ben Dover]

That should be brought up too! That was so bogus! He had everyone believing Jon at Allpro was evil when it was all Geiger's own agenda! I would like to know more about what went down there.

Well, here it is in a nutshell. Back when Chris worked for All-Pro, he started contacting all of Jon suppliers to find out if they were interested in starting a new company. One main supplier in particular was contacted and agreed to it. Now, details of the deal in question are sketchy. The rest isn't.

While at a competition, Geiger got really drunk one night. He started spouting off and someone (we'll call them person X) overheard that Chris was planning on leaving Jon to start his own company and that he already had certain supplier ready to jump ship. The kicker was that he already had a warehouse leased and Jon's main supplier on board. The main supplier was going to Chris partner.

Any of this sound familiar yet?

So, Chris had shipments ready for delivery to his new place. Well, Jon received word from person "X" telling him what was going on. Jon couldn't believe it, and almost disregarded it, but figured he would at least ask Chris. Well, Chris admitted to it, and immediately a fight broke out. Jon physically threw Chris out of the place. Then, Jon immediately contacted the "main supplier" and pretty much put the fear of God into him. At that point his supplier decided not to go with Chris. So, Chris at this point was out of his business venture and pretty much screwed. He didn't have a job nor a decent reference. So, he lashed out and started telling lies about what really happened. Then he ended up at Marlin Crawler. Since he had a list of all of Jon's suppliers, Marlin all of a sudden started offering suspension parts. Before Geiger, Marlin was strictly a tranny and Tcase shop.

[BLACKDOG]

HammerHog, that is a great perspective   I've never even thought about that verse pertaining toa business relationship, but you are absolutely right.

[Hottrod81]

Well, here it is in a nutshell. Back when Chris worked for All-Pro, he started contacting all of Jon suppliers to find out if they were interested in starting a new company. One main supplier in particular was contacted and agreed to it. Now, details of the deal in question are sketchy. The rest isn't.

While at a competition, Geiger got really drunk one night. He started spouting off and someone (we'll call them person X) overheard that Chris was planning on leaving Jon to start his own company and that he already had certain supplier ready to jump ship. The kicker was that he already had a warehouse leased and Jon's main supplier on board. The main supplier was going to Chris partner.

Any of this sound familiar yet?

So, Chris had shipments ready for delivery to his new place. Well, Jon received word from person "X" telling him what was going on. Jon couldn't believe it, and almost disregarded it, but figured he would at least ask Chris. Well, Chris admitted to it, and immediately a fight broke out. Jon physically threw Chris out of the place. Then, Jon immediately contacted the "main supplier" and pretty much put the fear of God into him. At that point his supplier decided not to go with Chris. So, Chris at this point was out of his business venture and pretty much screwed. He didn't have a job nor a decent reference. So, he lashed out and started telling lies about what really happened. Then he ended up at Marlin Crawler. Since he had a list of all of Jon's suppliers, Marlin all of a sudden started offering suspension parts. Before Geiger, Marlin was strictly a tranny and Tcase shop.

I have heard the exact same story you described with the exception on how he got caught.

Edit: Maybe you should post this on the other board

[Prismo]

David,
Many of the people on this board consider Marlin a friend, myself included. Not all react logically or nicely it would seem when they feel friends or family are threatened. Many are fiercely loyal to Marlin because of the fact that he tries to help everyone beyond what a business owner normally would. When Marlin rebuilt my tranny & installed my dual cases in the 90's he would not allow me to get a motel room,insisted that my daughter & I would be staying at his house until the job was done. I ask you, what other vendor would do something like this for a customer he had met that day? This kind of behavior has created the loyal following that Marlin has to this day. I for one have refrained from posting in the general bashing back & forth for I don't see anything positive coming from it.

[Lady Di]

I have heard the exact same story you described with the exception on how he got caught.

Edit: Maybe you should post this on the other board

I hope this was posted on pirate, though I imagine it won't last long there.

[Lady Di]

David,
Many of the people on this board consider Marlin a friend, myself included. Not all react logically or nicely it would seem when they feel friends or family are threatened. Many are fiercely loyal to Marlin because of the fact that he tries to help everyone beyond what a business owner normally would. When Marlin rebuilt my tranny & installed my dual cases in the 90's he would not allow me to get a motel room,insisted that my daughter & I would be staying at his house until the job was done. I ask you, what other vendor would do something like this for a customer he had met that day? This kind of behavior has created the loyal following that Marlin has to this day. I for one have refrained from posting in the general bashing back & forth for I don't see anything positive coming from it.

and to that I would like to add... while we don't really know Marlin, we have been out to see them twice in the past two years, they always make us feel like family.
I had been by the Marlin compound with Christine while we were out and about during our last visit and it is a beautiful neighborhood.
As we were getting ready to leave Marlin was insistant that we should stay at their house the last night we were in town.
That would be all well and good but we were in a BIG motorhome (which most neighborhoods are not very friendly too) and they had a club meeting that night. But Marlin so wanted us to stay with them! I felt really bad refusing. I knew having the LBC in the neighborhood was probably not a good idea, and we had to get further south the next morning, the further S. we could get that night, the better.
I still feel bad that we didn't take him up on the offer though.
Marlin is a man WAY above men. He is the best of the best. The coolest of cool. And totally righteous!
How ANYONE could think to... excuse my french.. EFF him over is beyond my comprehension. Someone is the devils minion and that is all I can think.

[Hammer Hog]

http://www.myspace.com/geigerchris

nope, he's agnostic.

That just shows how stupid Geiger is.

An "agnostic" is undecided about whether or not God exists.

Geiger must mean he's an atheist.
An atheistic person positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists.

Geiger flat-out told me "There IS NO GOD...PERIOD!" Then he went on to elaborate to prove his reasoning.

Maybe he's starting to think about it...who knows?!

[blackdiamond]

Then he [Chris] ended up at Marlin Crawler. Since he had a list of all of Jon's suppliers, Marlin all of a sudden started offering suspension parts. Before Geiger, Marlin was strictly a tranny and Tcase shop.

A couple of questions:

Is it true that Chris Geiger worked at Marlin Crawler prior to his adventure with All Pro?  I have heard this but have not had it confirmed.

Why would Marlin hire him after the All Pro mess?

I've often thought that Marlin, and now Trail Gear, springs were a knock off All Pro product, but the real roots are found at Alcan and I suspect there is another "shady" story to go along with that.

I am a huge Marlin Crawler supporter, but I've often wondered why he didn't insist on an obviously different spring design.  In my opinion, the leaf springs are the only product offered by Marlin Crawler that seem to have constant problems.

[Lady Di]

That just shows how stupid Geiger is.

An "agnostic" is undecided about whether or not God exists.

Geiger must mean he's an atheist.
An atheistic person positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists.

Geiger flat-out told me "There IS NO GOD...PERIOD!" Then he went on to elaborate to prove his reasoning.

Maybe he's starting to think about it...who knows?!

He probably went with agnostic on myspace cause that is less offensive then athesist, and he does still have to keep customers.
Always keeping up the front.
Agnostic is the best of all worlds. MAYBE he believes... the believer side.. MAYBE he doesn't... the none side...
He is evil incarnate.

[Loki]

That just shows how stupid Geiger is.

An "agnostic" is undecided about whether or not God exists.

Geiger must mean he's an atheist.
An atheistic person positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists.

Geiger flat-out told me "There IS NO GOD...PERIOD!" Then he went on to elaborate to prove his reasoning.

Maybe he's starting to think about it...who knows?!

I really don't see how his religious believe/disbelief has anything to do with the decisions he or anyone makes for that matter (as far as marketing is conerned). Without religion there can still be morals.

I'm not defending anyone here, i'm just saying that a person shouldn't be judged by their personal religious beliefs. I am done.

[Hammer Hog]

I really don't see how his religious believe/disbelief has anything to do with the decisions he or anyone makes for that matter (as far as marketing is conerned). Without religion there can still be morals.

I'm not defending anyone here, i'm just saying that a person shouldn't be judged by their personal religious beliefs. I am done.

This is true...

But my point was about being "Equally Yoked" as it was a topic Matt and I had awhile ago during another one of those heated discussions/threads. Matt claims to be a "devout Christian" with ethics and Christian based morals. Those are words he said to me when we were talking about he and Geiger's partnering together. Matt acknowledges Geiger's beliefs and said "It doesn't really matter because Geiger is NOT a partner...just and employee, period."
So my point is, Matt knows fully what is going on, and he doesn't give a rip about who he hurts and or takes advantage of, even-though he has a way of glossing over things.
BTW, I'm not being judgmental, just stating the facts...first-hand.

[Lady Di]

This is true...

But my point was about being "Equally Yoked" as it was a topic Matt and I had awhile ago during another one of those heated discussions/threads. Matt claims to be a "devout Christian" with ethics and Christian based morals. Those are words he said to me when we were talking about he and Geiger's partnering together. Matt acknowledges Geiger's beliefs and said "It doesn't really matter because Geiger is NOT a partner...just and employee, period."
So my point is, Matt knows fully what is going on, and he doesn't give a rip about who he hurts and or takes advantage of, even-though he has a way of glossing over things.
BTW, I'm not being judgmental, just stating the facts...first-hand.

[Lady Di]

Marlin is the man. and he is pure. It boggles my mine that anyone coud do this to him. Geiger will burn.

[Loki]

Just so you know i'm not jumping in the Kool-Aid without the sugar, i've done my reading. I've read a bunch PBB, I've read this whole thread, yes i am somewhat new to the Yota building/crawling community, but I have a "general" idea as to what's going on. I'm not taking any sides due to the fact that i make decisions based on information that i personally receive...not "hear-say"

I personally don't think that the whole MCI vs TG controversy is any of my concern. I've been waiting for a product to come out, and regardless of how it did (which is un-beknownst to me) it is what i'm in the market for, so i'll purchase it. If whatever has been discussed on multiple Forums is proven to be correct, then that's quite unfortunate. Fact of the matter is, i'm not privee'd to the facts here and honestly...i don't care to be.

Hammer Hog: I respect your point of view (especially the way you presented it) Continuing your proof as taking the higher road the way a "man of god" would/should choose to do... I'm well versed in many religions, i just don't choose to follow them. The fact that i don't believe in a higher being, a heaven/hell god/satan would label me as an Athiest (as much as i dislike being labeled.) An agnostic doesn't exactly mean that a person cannot make up their mind on if there's a god or not...it actually refers to people either not being able make a logical decision on which religion to choose, or that he/she believes that any god (differant religion) is unknown...not comitted to a religion. There's quite a big differance in the two. I do not question anyone's judgement or faith, that is just something that i guess i could relate to one of my morals (i really don't care as long as you're a good person) i believe christians would refer to the book of James in the bible (specificaly Chapter 4 vs 11-12) on your god's view on judgment.

You are defending someone here. It is Geiger. I have seen you run to his aid on the trail gear forum numerous times. You are a trail-gear puppet. Now go home.

You're right...I'm a puppet because you know just about...well let's just say "nothing" about me. I'm not here to start anything, I don't and will not defend either person due to the fact that i'm not biased one way or another. I believe the only time i've ever said anything remotely close to defending anyone is when someone came on TG talking about how a Sami build-up was such a POS and blah blah blah...fact of that matter is that it is/was a good build regardless of who built the rig. PERIOD

so unless i've done something wrong here i don't see a reason that i should have to leave. if i have offended someone here (due to the fact that many of you are huge supports/friends of Marlin) that was not my intention. I'm here learning just as many of you are.

[Hottrod81]

  believe the only time i've ever said anything remotely close to defending anyone is when someone came on TG talking about how a Sami build-up was such a POS and blah blah blah...fact of that matter is that it is/was a good build regardless of who built the rig. PERIOD

Your right sombody did go on that forum and said that his welds sucked, not the build up.  And that person was me.

[Lady Di]

Just so you know i'm not jumping in the Kool-Aid without the sugar, i've done my reading. I've read a bunch PBB, I've read this whole thread, yes i am somewhat new to the Yota building/crawling community, but I have a "general" idea as to what's going on. I'm not taking any sides due to the fact that i make decisions based on information that i personally receive...not "hear-say"

I personally don't think that the whole MCI vs TG controversy is any of my concern. I've been waiting for a product to come out, and regardless of how it did (which is un-beknownst to me) it is what i'm in the market for, so i'll purchase it. If whatever has been discussed on multiple Forums is proven to be correct, then that's quite unfortunate. Fact of the matter is, i'm not privee'd to the facts here and honestly...i don't care to be.

Hammer Hog: I respect your point of view (especially the way you presented it) Continuing your proof as taking the higher road the way a "man of god" would/should choose to do... I'm well versed in many religions, i just don't choose to follow them. The fact that i don't believe in a higher being, a heaven/hell god/satan would label me as an Athiest (as much as i dislike being labeled.) An agnostic doesn't exactly mean that a person cannot make up their mind on if there's a god or not...it actually refers to people either not being able make a logical decision on which religion to choose, or that he/she believes that any god (differant religion) is unknown...not comitted to a religion. There's quite a big differance in the two. I do not question anyone's judgement or faith, that is just something that i guess i could relate to one of my morals (i really don't care as long as you're a good person) i believe christians would refer to the book of James in the bible (specificaly Chapter 4 vs 11-12) on your god's view on judgment.You're right...I'm a puppet because you know just about...well let's just say "nothing" about me. I'm not here to start anything, I don't and will not defend either person due to the fact that i'm not biased one way or another. I believe the only time i've ever said anything remotely close to defending anyone is when someone came on TG talking about how a Sami build-up was such a POS and blah blah blah...fact of that matter is that it is/was a good build regardless of who built the rig. PERIOD

so unless i've done something wrong here i don't see a reason that i should have to leave. if i have offended someone here (due to the fact that many of you are huge supports/friends of Marlin) that was not my intention. I'm here learning just as many of you are.

[Lady Di]

I wasn't able to follow it all but I was there for the bulk!