Topic: I'm worried about our childrens brains!!!

[CTENG in KS]

What do you think about this stuff going on in Kansas??

Here is from '99
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/08/12/MN100524.DTL

and now in todays news:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/05/02/life.evolution.reut/index.html

 

[MagPede]

IDK evolution is stupid IMO. 

[BLACKDOG]

That is frightening.  I fully believe in creation, but evolution cannot be completely discounted, even from a creationist view.  There is far too much evidence that things now arent as they were many many years ago.  One of the best things about our nation, is that people are allowed to think.  If we eliminate educational aspects, society will produce mind numbed followers.  In a sense,, the bible doesnt even condemn evolution.  There is a verse that says something along the lines of a day for God can be a thousand years to us, and a thousand years to Him, can be a day to us.  Therefore, the 6 days it took God to cvreate the earth, could easily span over many years for us, and allow for evolutionary theory to fit in.

Is evolution 100% right, no.  Is it bad to have it taken out of schools?  absoulutely, we need free thinkers, not followers.

[donkeykong]

I am a religious person and believe in creation,  But being a some what edjumicated person i have study evolution and Darwin's finding in the Galapagos islands and find the theory of natural selection quite interesting.  It does not contradicted creation but does show how some animals have adapted...not evolved...to there surroundings.  With that said I think what is happening in Kansas is that they are opening a big ole can of worms....the line between state and religion is going to be tested and it will be interesting to see the outcome.

P.S.  I am not trying to cause an argument, so do not take my statement as an attack on anybodies beliefs.  I respect your right to chose what you believe as I hope you respect my rights

[CTENG in KS [OP]]

I respect everyones rights...I just feel it is very simple.  Creationism or ID or whatever you want to call it belongs at church, or religious ed.  Science (read: evolution) belongs in science class.  Every state that takes that away from children, or allows their perception of the scientific world to be clouded, does our kids a disservice and leaves them behind the curve on tests and in college.  There isn't even a religious based university in the country that would embarrass itself by refusing to accept evolution as scientifically acceptable fact.

[BLACKDOG]

careful with the "fact"

IMO both should be presented in school.  Both are theories, (me believing in God creationism is a fact for me) and both should be presented as such.  I disagree with teaching evolution as the answer, but I also disagree with eliminating it alltogether.  I believe wholeheartedly that the earth was created, but I aslo beleive that there was a factor of evolution.  There is too much evidence to not beleive that evolution had a part in it.  It was never Darwins intention to dispute creationism, but to explore into how it it happened, and why.  I am able to have this beleive because I was engcouraged to learn, and read about it.  My dad is a scientist, and aslo a christian.  He had a hard time combining the two, until he did his own research.  Kids are going to be stupid if we eliminate stuff from schools, because people dont like the subject.  If that was the case, should schools in Germany eliminate WWII from their hsitory books, cause it puts germany in a bad light??

[CTENG in KS [OP]]

I fail to see a relevant comparison...and yes, if you call up the National Academy of Science they will tell you that the theory of evolution is so widely accepted by scientists all over the world that it is indeed considered scientific fact.
It is an incredibly well studied and documented phenomena...as is world war 2 for that matter.  Anything that includes a "higher power" of any sort has gone beyond even the ability to accurately document its effects on the natural world.  Therefore, by right of the argument that evolution cannot be proven because it cannot be reproduced, ID failes because no one even know what to reproduce in the first place as it is an intangible.  One way or the other, ID and creationism, while popular, cannot even be condidered viable SCIENTIFIC theories to be included in SCIENCE class.

[gonzo]

It's all about "Freedom" not "control".  It's all about individual choices even if others don't agree with your choices.  It's all about knowledge.  We make our choices from our knowledge.  If we have no knowledge then we can only make restricted choices.  In Kansas they want to control the knowledge of the children, so that they can make only the choices accepted by certain individuals.  I'm not for or against Darwin.  I am for the Freedom to become Knowledgeable and make my own Choices.  

[CTENG in KS [OP]]

Juggle...Juggle...Juggle!!!!!!!

[BLACKDOG]

I fail to see a relevant comparison...and yes, if you call up the National Academy of Science they will tell you that the theory of evolution is so widely accepted by scientists all over the world that it is indeed considered scientific fact.
It is an incredibly well studied and documented phenomena...as is world war 2 for that matter.  Anything that includes a "higher power" of any sort has gone beyond even the ability to accurately document its effects on the natural world.  Therefore, by right of the argument that evolution cannot be proven because it cannot be reproduced, ID failes because no one even know what to reproduce in the first place as it is an intangible.  One way or the other, ID and creationism, while popular, cannot even be condidered viable SCIENTIFIC theories to be included in SCIENCE class.

i think that is what this discussion is boiling down to, is not which you choos,e but rather having the right to choose.

CTENG, what is ID ??  did I miss something? 
As far as creationism not being a scientific theory, it is becoming more and more acceptabe to scientists, to fill voids where evolution fails.  There is much fact in the Bible, which is used as a factual documentation of many scientists, both religious and non-religous.  I am not opposed to Evolution as a whole, but rather the idea that we as a human ace have evolved from another species, that the universe was created in a big bang, or that we all came out of some sort of primordial ooze.

[gonzo]

i think that is what this discussion is boiling down to, is not which you choos,e but rather having the right to choose.

CTENG, what is ID ?? did I miss something?
As far as creationism not being a scientific theory, it is becoming more and more acceptabe to scientists, to fill voids where evolution fails. There is much fact in the Bible, which is used as a factual documentation of many scientists, both religious and non-religous. I am not opposed to Evolution as a whole, but rather the idea that we as a human ace have evolved from another species, that the universe was created in a big bang, or that we all came out of some sort of primordial ooze.

Actually, I think we were all purchased at a super wallmart and assembled by aliens from Krypton.    

[BLACKDOG]

Actually, I think we were all purchased at a super wallmart and assembled by aliens from Krypton.    

well, that explains the made in... sticker I've never been able to peel off my    

[Huhwhye]

My opinion FWIW.

I think people should accept the fact that nobody has all the answers.  That people should learn and educate themselves about the beliefs and traditions of other people and that anybody can believe what they choose.  And strive for better knowledge and understanding.

There is a possibility that we are all wrong.  That their are things that we can not yet comprehend.  That's what make's life so interesting.

When I have children I hope to allow them the possibility to make up their own minds.

[gonzo]

well, that explains the made in... sticker I've never been able to peel off my

  Very, very good.

[gonzo]

My opinion FWIW.

I think people should accept the fact that nobody has all the answers.  That people should learn and educate themselves about the beliefs and traditions of other people and that anybody can believe what they choose.  And strive for better knowledge and understanding.

There is a possibility that we are all wrong.  That their are things that we can not yet comprehend.  That's what make's life so interesting.

When I have children I hope to allow them the possibility to make up their own minds.

Well said. 

[BLACKDOG]

My opinion FWIW.

I think people should accept the fact that nobody has all the answers.  That people should learn and educate themselves about the beliefs and traditions of other people and that anybody can believe what they choose.  And strive for better knowledge and understanding.

There is a possibility that we are all wrong.  That their are things that we can not yet comprehend.  That's what make's life so interesting.

When I have children I hope to allow them the possibility to make up their own minds.

In so many words, what I have been tryin to say.  well done! everyone has their own beleifs, but to cement your beliefs, you must learn about them

[Cheesemaker]

It's all about "Freedom" not "control".  It's all about individual choices even if others don't agree with your choices.  It's all about knowledge.  We make our choices from our knowledge.  If we have no knowledge then we can only make restricted choices.  In Kansas they want to control the knowledge of the children, so that they can make only the choices accepted by certain individuals.  I'm not for or against Darwin.  I am for the Freedom to become Knowledgeable and make my own Choices.  

I agree very strongly with Gonzo, without education and freedom to learn anything you want, we would have a country that would be very narrow minded!  I want my kids to know that they have choices and  can be given ALL the options and can decide for themselves what is right, and what to beleive in!  I was given that option, I believe in god and jesus, but I do know that the earth is older than what the bible claims.  I use the bible as a way to live my life, not the deciding factor in what I should do!  I have a friend that doesn't make decisions for himself, he let's god or the bible make them for him!  I fell sorry for people like that!! He's a good person, don't get me wrong!  Why do you think we left England to come to the new world??  To get away from a country that basically told us to not think for ourselves, and don't ask ?'s.  I believe in darwin, evolution, and to live my life in a good chistian way!  I have friends that think I should go to church, but I found that church try to persuade you into believing one way. And I feel that politics should not get involved into religion!!  I better stop now!!  I try to avoid topics like this cause it just gets me all         Now I have to go out and take my agression out on my grass and mow it!!  If there is one thing I hate in this world is narrow minded and ignorant people!!     

[88runner]

I feel that religion should not be teached at school if for you it represent teaching catholism, protestentism( ), or whatever you want. Particular religion must be teached by particular church. Now, if you're talking about teaching how different religionS see things and how they act, this is good for the culture of everybody!

Here, in Quebec, religion(catholism) has been removed from the teaching program, they teach what we call moral, it include an overview of different religions not forcing you to accept a point of view.

Heach religion involve points of view, they may or may not be the one accepted by other peoples, this is why a religion should not be involved in politics or any other domain unless it affect only you and the one who think like you!

Hope I was clear, if not, I'll just say I don't care if you're catolic, protestent, juish, boudist, mormon, add anything here...
let people live their life like they want and not like you think it should be.(Sure their's some wacko people that need to get beaten out there  )

[To The Floor]

I believe in God, I know that is the only thing that will get me to Heaven.  Evolution is horse dung and I don't think it should be taught in schools.  But then again I am a Christian, narrow minded and ignorant republican.  I know I am not open minded about things like this because I wasn't brought up that way, and I am proud of that.  That's my take on the issue of this crap in schools.

[CTENG in KS [OP]]

I believe in God, I know that is the only thing that will get me to Heaven.  Evolution is horse dung and I don't think it should be taught in schools.  But then again I am a Christian, narrow minded and ignorant republican.  I know I am not open minded about things like this because I wasn't brought up that way, and I am proud of that.  That's my take on the issue of this crap in schools.

WOW   

Blackdog:  ID is Intelligent Design...this theory someone came up with that infers evolution is not real and that all progress genetic or otherwise was set in motion by a higher power, yada yada yada.  It is a sneaky way to get god out of the picture and still have the faith aspect of the theory.  This is what they are offering as the alternative to evolution in schools.  If anything, I think the idea is really a slap in the face to students.  If you want to tell them something, just tell them, don't sugar-coat it in a PC package.

[mr4x42u]

I believe in God, I know that is the only thing that will get me to Heaven.  Evolution is horse dung and I don't think it should be taught in schools.  But then again I am a Christian, narrow minded and ignorant republican.  I know I am not open minded about things like this because I wasn't brought up that way, and I am proud of that.  That's my take on the issue of this crap in schools.

problem case and point in your very own words,,you were taught,,by whom,,your parents,,like most kids do they follow,,I'm sure you already have taught your children,,or will when they come into this world...So by all rights you and your children have or wil never feel you have the freedom to choose..Basicly you have been brainwashed into thinking god is the awnser...part of the way you think is the problem with church and state not being seprate..thats the only crap there is..

with all the religion out there,,and many do's and don'ts of religion,,you don't know that the christian faith is the correct one,,How do you know the true god is not allah,,budda or other?You go by a book and a preacher and words written in a book that you think is 110% correct...The truth is there are many mistakes in the bible wich so many follow,,,and this comes from a god you say you will trust..

I got news for ya,,,If you don't put an engine together right,,you have problems,,and if that book tells you to do it one way,,and its wrong,,,your screwed..You had better read you bible for mistakes and rethink your religion..

Sure there could be a god,,,got proof other then this so called book?sure there are mistakes in science,,but those mistakes are not being taught to my kids,,unlike the bible...This country is too religion bound and its pretty much turned this country to ..from freedom of speach to the 10 commadments out sode the court house..the bible thumpers are going to screw it all up for everyone..

[CTENG in KS [OP]]

Sure there could be a god,,,got proof other then this so called book?sure there are mistakes in science,,but those mistakes are not being taught to my kids,,unlike the bible...This country is too religion bound and its pretty much turned this country to ..from freedom of speach to the 10 commadments out sode the court house..the bible thumpers are going to screw it all up for everyone..

I was too nice to come right out and say it...I agree though.  Wouldn't have a problem with my children being religious, it teaches good morals, but we live in a physical world dictated by certain physical laws.  Take for example children born with a genetic anamoly or mutation...these are the basis for natural selection, and thus evolution.  That is concrete, physical evidence that can be documented in their DNA. 

[gonzo]

Religion is a good thing, but so is being free to say it isn't.

[CTENG in KS [OP]]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/03/tech/main692524.shtml

This is the latest update on Kansas and the fight against science.   

[gonzo]

This debate is never ending.  Science is science.  Religion is religion.  Darwin is science.  God is religion.  Science is about discovery.  Religion is about belief.  If every one agreed on every thing then life would be very boring.  I would rather see this discussion brought into the public eye, rather than hidden behind locked doors.  So all the attention the subject is receiving is a good thing.

If it causes you to think and ask questions, then it's good.

[BLACKDOG]

This right here is exactly why the school board in Kansas is wrong!!!  We are discussing different aspects, and coming to different conclusions, but I believe all of us are learning because of this discussion.  If a school board chooses to eliminate different aspects instead of exposing them for discussion, they are doing their students a disservice.  I beleive in God, and that Jesus is the path to heaven.  However, I was raised in a Christian home, but also a scientists home, and was encouraged to research, and look for answers.    It wasnt enough for me to beleive, I had to know why I believed.  I was not brainwashed, and what I believe actually goes against a lot of theories that my church believes, one being evolution.  I beleive that there is room for evolution, natural selection, etc to fit inside creation.

CTENG, thanks for explaining the ID theory, I havent ever heard of that before.

[CTENG in KS [OP]]

I haden't heard about it either until the other day when the $h!t hit the fan down in KS.

[germ]

It bothers me that a school board would seek to limit a childs access to information. I personally have belief in God, but wholy support the theory of evolution as well, as the two are not mutually exclusive. I believe that our creator would have built into his design a way for the species to adapt to an ever changing environment, and to thrive.

While I have my beliefs, which are based on years of study and experience, I do not think that we should limit what a child is learning in school. there are some crack-pot ideas out there that we should probably avoid, but the ones which have merit, and have a solid basis should be explored. We should be encouraging our children to think critically about these concepts, and provide them the tools they need to seek more information and learn about the world in which we live. The whole basis of scientific exploration is to question the theories which have been developed before, and seek ways to find more evidence to support or disprove these theories.

Anyone (group) who would try to avoid teaching a subject, just because they don't believe in it, is attempting to brainwash thier students. It is a scary thought.

Erik 

[BigMike]

YES FINALLY !!!!!!!!!!!! I got so mad about this when I was taking my General Edu classes in my biology class.

We had to write essay papers about once a month and I wrote like 4 anti-evolution essays.

But my essays were not geared directly at if evolution is real or not, honestly know one will ever know, but rather I feel that Evolution is a BELIEF just like RELIGION. Therefore, why should we be forced to study it? I had to take a test on evolution... If there was a class about Catholicism and it was required to get my degree, I WOULD BE PISSED. I am not catholic so why should I be forced to study and be tested on it?

Imagine if Darwin had to take a required class on religion. He would argue it just as I am arguing about being forced to study evolution.

In my opinion, some things look good with Evolution, but it is impossible to ever explain it all. And for me, the deeper I researched about Evolution, the more I thought it was impossible. And of course no one can prove God exists unless some miricle happens to that person which he can not explain. So its hard to prove that God is real. They are both beliefs and therefore evolution should be a requirement at school. Both areas require a great deal of faith-

I think they should just offer a different Science class that is not a general requirement that studies Evolution deeper. Then students who appriciate the belief will be able to spend more time studing it.

When my computer gets back up, I'll have to pull up my final essay and share it. It's pretty cool

[BLACKDOG]

Just to clarify things a little, Darwin didnt set out to prove that there was no God, he set out to discover the way the earth changed from however long ago to now.  Also, in his last days, Darwin did rescin his theories to a point.  He claimed that while the evoluion theory was feasible, there was not enough proof that the earth did evolve from a blob of primordial ooze, the big bang theory, or any of that.  He accepted the theory that creation and evolution are intertwinable, as several of us have said. (i did my homework last night, looked this up )