CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE

[Gnarly4X]

Yes, referring to that one.   Could you run that cam profile with a mostly stock engine?  I will be running LCE header on my truck.  I'm going to hold off on a rebuild because my compression numbers are good and I only have 130K miles on the truck. 

Which cam/profile.  I've never seen any cams for 22s on there. 

I must not be in the right place on their funky site?

Gnarls.

[Groundpounder17]

Gnarls what do you think about these cam specs?

220/230 @ .050", 257/268 adv, .413"/.427" lift, 110 lob sep, lash .012"/.012"

I got a back up engine when I got my BUILT engine, and it had a cam from http://www.oregoncamshaft.com/index.html
I called them monday to find out about cam #OC1157

Gnarls, this one

[Gnarly4X]

THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED FOR CLARIFICATION:

Hey G....

I'm curious what makes Oregon cam intriguing?

What torque and HP numbers are you looking at?

Their website sucks.  I have been all over it and I cannot find ANY camshafts for a Toyota engine- no cam specs!

The only cam specs I've seen are what Cheesemaker posted back in post #82.

I'll run some numbers for you and post something Sunday.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi G...

I have not run any other cams specs from Oregon Cams.  But, I see now why RN48 posted his question.

I re-read the post by Cheesemaker back in 2021.  I need to run some more numbers to verify what I got from those specs that Cheesemaker provided.

Again, I have never seen any cam specs from Oregon Cams, only what Cheesemaker posted?

I don't mind looking at cam profiles and comparing them.  However, I do like to know about the entire cam specs, sources, and pricing.  And what information is evoking the questions and curiosity.  It may be word-of-mouth, advertising, or the specs just look really interesting.  But I am always curious about those aspects of the part.

I ran a quick 1800 thru 5400 with 400 RPM increments.

These numbers are the *comparison* of what you would mostly see in stock 22RE between the cams.

These numbers will change in your engine (header/exhaust and 22R)... they will increase.

The 22R carb's engine respond differently to cam profile changes... mostly the bigger profiles seem to work really well in the 22Rs.

The 22RE with the ECU, there can be issues with overlap, for example, which can cause an idle lope.  Some guys don't like a lope, I like a lope.

Based upon your engine specs, I would run some numbers and see how they compare to a stock 22R.

Depending on what you want from the cam, we can look at torque vs HP, and what RPM range you want the power band.

Obviously, the bigger valves and some porting will make a difference.  From what I know, unless you are REALLY comfortable with building a head, I'd leave the head building to a pro with lots of Toyota head experience.  I believe the head and cam in these little 22s is probably THE most important performance component on the engine.... It's all about flow!

Of course, the header and exhaust can make a difference.

The LCE header, with 4-into-1 is a quality header. I have only run the DT headers on my engines.  I am curious what Jim at 22RE Performance what say about the LCE vs Doug Thorley? 

These are the numbers plugged into a factory stock 22RE.

Stock cam:
Pk Tq-147 @ 2600-3000
Avg Tq-130
Pk HP- 113 @ 5000
Avg HP-87.5

Oregon Cam:
Pk Tq-143 @ 3000
Avg Tq-126
Pk HP-112 @ 5000
Avg HP-85.9

I am puzzled to see the above comparison.

I need to run some more numbers.

Gnarls.

[Groundpounder17]

Thank you, Gnarls.  For some reason I was thinking that cam profile had given you some crazy good numbers.  I think I just misread it. 
I would definitely leave the head building to the professionals.  The problem is no one wants to work on the early heads and no one makes a performance head for my '82 block.  I would likely find someone fairly local with Toyota experience and get parts and recommendations from Jim. 

[Gnarly4X]

G....

I had completely forgotten I had added that cam to the Excel sheet on post #82... Geezz!!

You didn't misread it.... It did show some high numbers!

I didn't pursue really trying to understand what in the profile was making those numbers.  I just dropped it after adding to the list and I believe Cheesemaker said he was going to install the stock cam.

I need to relook at the data on what has made those numbers.  I want to make sure I didn't make a mistake, or those numbers ARE real compared to the other in the comparison list.

I have the engine specs for a 22R.  I can run some numbers based upon your future engine specs with that Oregon cam.

Here are the Excel sheets (xls and xlsx)  that was updated with the added Oregon cam.

I would like to talk to Oregon Cams.

Gnarls.

[Groundpounder17]

G....

I had completely forgotten I had added that cam to the Excel sheet on post #82... Geezz!!

You didn't misread it.... It did show some high numbers!

I didn't pursue really trying to understand what in the profile was making those numbers.  I just dropped it after adding to the list and I believe Cheesemaker said he was going to install the stock cam.

I need to relook at the data on what has made those numbers.  I want to make sure I didn't make a mistake, or those numbers ARE real compared to the other in the comparison list.

I have the engine specs for a 22R.  I can run some numbers based upon your future engine specs with that Oregon cam.

Here are the Excel sheets (xls and xlsx)  that was updated with the added Oregon cam.

I would like to talk to Oregon Cams.

Gnarls.

I would be willing to try something like that in my 22r.  If Oregon cams doesn't give me the answers I wanted maybe another cam shop could grind one with similar specs?

[Gnarly4X]

I would be willing to try something like that in my 22r.  If Oregon cams doesn't give me the answers I wanted maybe another cam shop could grind one with similar specs?

I believe just about any cam supplier will do a special grind. 

Way back I spoke to an engineer at Comp Cams and they said would do a special for me.

Redline Cams in Oregon was the grinder for engnbldr, and I have spoken Bill the owner.

If you decide to have a special grind, I believe starting with a Toyota factory cam as the core is desirable.

I've read comments and spoken to lots of early Toyota owners about their camshaft experiences and they range from a raving to really good to not happy.

I'd bet that Jim at 22RE Performance has done lots of testing on his cam recommendation and has done flow benching - maybe even dyno comparisons?

HOWEVER... the results and that test data seems to be very well protected by most cam suppliers, and I have not seen any real comparison test data.

When I was speaking to Todd at engnblder before I was about to buy parts for my rebuild, I asked him for any test data on their 261 Crawler cam... answer:  I don't have anything I can send you.

When I spoke to Bill at Redline Cams after my rebuild engine failure, he said that he was not in complete agreement with the profiles that Ted was having him grind... that's paraphrasing.

With that said.... Ted was one of the best engine builders and best flow guys around, and he did receive NASCAR's coveted "Golden Wrench" award.

Gnarls.

[Groundpounder17]

I would be very interested as to what makes that cam profile give such impressive numbers

[Gnarly4X]

I would be very interested as to what makes that cam profile give such impressive numbers

I'm curious as well.... I will look into those numbers deeper.

Cam profiles can produce interesting numbers and seem to trade torque for HP, a flat torque range or a short torque range, and can move the peaks up and down the RPMs.

My original quest was for more torque between 2500 and 3500 RPMs in 4th and 5th gears, where I needed it the most and did 80% of my drive time.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Just so you understand somewhat how I work these cam profiles in the Engine Analyzer software.... and the software is very sophisticated.

I have literally hundreds of saved mock pulls with a file or multiple files for each one.

There are 7 engine spec categories.  In each category there is 8 to 21 spec data in each category.

So there are over 100 "specs" or pieces of data that go into the software for any given camshaft.

If I make a number change in one of those specs, it can significantly change the calculated Torque and HP numbers.

I will typically plug in all the cam specs provided. Since some cam suppliers neglect to provide ALL the specs, I might let the software calculate what is missing... which it can do very easily. BUT.. I prefer to know exactly what cam supplier spec'd.... some published cam specs have been wrong.

While I'm running mock dyno pulls, I will usually make changes to some specs to see what happens.

If I inadvertently *save* the test I'm on, with the changed specs I was playing with, it will overwrite my base engine specs or the base cam specs for that cam.

THEN, later if I pull up that base saved file and start using it as my "testing" base, I may not catch that 1 or more specs have been changed from the base specs.

THAT is what I think happened with the Oregon results.

I will verify all the specs and re-test 3 or 4 top cams and compare the results to the Oregon cam, then I will update my Excel sheet.

Gnarls.

[Groundpounder17]

Thank you very much, Gnarls!   I can't wait to see what you come up with.

[Gnarly4X]

Geezz.. there is enough fake news, misinformation, Russia Russia Russia, Disney wokeness, and generally a whole lot of Bravo Sierra!!

I don't need to add to that !!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Thank you very much, Gnarls!   I can't wait to see what you come up with.

I have too many chores to get done this week, but I'll work on those numbers.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE ON OREGON CAM 4-18-2022


I ran some numbers with a base engine - same engine I used in the comparisons, except where noted.

Those extraordinarily high torque and horsepower numbers that I originally published in the "Updated" are obviously NOT correct.

As I suspected, I inadvertently did not notice that one of engine specs had been changed, most likely during one of my experimenting sessions.

I will run the numbers for the full RPM range and post them on a corrected sheet.

I haven't spoken to the boys at Oregon Cams, but I'd suspect they probably got a few extra phone calls about that cam. 

I apologize for the misinformation and fake news.

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE:  04-21-2022

I completed the full run of the Torque and HP numbers thru the RPM Range on the Oregon cam.

I'm very impressed with this cam for the RPMs after 3100.

Look at the torque numbers all the way to 5900.

Look at the HP numbers from 3500 RPMs.

If I wanted to have lots of torque and HP from 3100 RPM up, this profile would be a good choice.

BUT wait.... there's a trade-off!!

Look at the low torque numbers from 1000 thru 2500.

These numbers are for the Engine spec above the Factory Stock cam.

And, as you can see the factory stock cam is an excellent profile in a modified 22RE.

The overlap in the Oregon cam is 5.9 degrees.  This will most likely cause a slight lope at idle in a 22RE... I like lopey cams!

For an overall excellent balance of torque and HP through the RPM range, the CompCam CC252S and the Schneider 244-50F in a 22RE are still in my top 2 choices.

Let me know what you think.

Gnarls.

[Groundpounder17]

Thank you very much, Gnarls.   That Oregon Cam is not nearly as impressive now. lol

I like the Scheider cam too.  What did you think of the cam profile on that Scheider 17503 cam?  It comes on just a bit later than the 244-50F, but is still in a pretty good RPM range

[Gnarly4X]

Thank you very much, Gnarls.   That Oregon Cam is not nearly as impressive now. lol

I like the Scheider cam too.  What did you think of the cam profile on that Scheider 17503 cam?  It comes on just a bit later than the 244-50F, but is still in a pretty good RPM range

One thing nice about the look at these cams is you can pick where you want your torque to be!!

95% of my driving "need for speed" is between 2500 and 3500 RPMs.

Gnarls.

[2manytoys]

I'm very late to this thread but, I just went through it. I can add my personal experience with two engine builds with the old Engnbldr cams. One in my son's 91 compared to my 88. Both similar SAS'd trucks. Same transmissions 5.29 gears and 35 inch tires.

Both long blocks used the same kit. Both heads got a clean up cut. Maybe .010 max. I don't remember.

My son's kept stock valves but, I blended the bowls and gasket matched the intake runners. Stock 91 plenum and air filter. Crawler 268 cam. (Whatever the larger of the crawler cams was back then)
Cheap header, 2 1/4" exhaust, universal cat.

On my 88 I went with over size valves, blended the bowls, gasket matched intake, stock 88 plenum and air filter. 270 cam (Supposedly it was biggest that I could still run stock EFI)
Same exhaust system as my son's.

I daily drove my truck and keeping up in traffic sucked is why I tried the 270 cam. The low gears make up for any lost low end when wheeling was my logic. I was right. (For my expectations)
There was a slight but noticeable loss in the low end on the street. The mid range was great and I had NO regrets with this cam.

A few times my son and I raced at the traffic lights. He's get a slight jump on me and then I would just walk away from him. People don't believe me but I got my truck up to 100 mph on I-10 a few times. I could never do that before. I sold the engine to an old man when I did my 3.4 swap. He put it in a 2wd I think. He came back some time later and asked me what the heck I did to it. Best engine he ever had he said.

My son's truck ran great but it didn't have the "street power" I had.

I also compared a heavy flywheel to a stock one but that was before the rebuild. The heavy one was good for crawling but the lighter stock one was DEFINITELY better on the street. Acceleration suffers noticeably with the heavy one. I sold it.

I hope this adds to your thread. Sorry, I don't have the cam specs anymore. I didn't record RPM or other data. Just drove them and for my daily driver preferred the 270.

[Gnarly4X]

I'm very late to this thread

Hi 2manytoys,

Wow... great feedback!!  In my early days of cam research (1999) this kind of information was shared by lots of guys and was always really interesting to read or hear.

All that info is priceless for "butt-dyno" feedback!

I did not include engbldr's 268 or the 270 and I will add those to the comparison sheet.

Thank you for sharing.

Gnarls.

[2manytoys]

Thanks, I'm glad you can use the "Butt Dyno" data. Bumping compression typically improves torque which may have offset some of the low end torque loss of the 270. I've never seen anyone do so on the 22RE though.

I appreciate all you put into this thread.

Scott

[Gnarly4X]

I appreciate all you put into this thread.

Scott

Thank you, Scott.

Around 2003 I starting prepping my 1985 Shortbed 22R to do some actual dyno testing of several camshafts.

I totaled my 1985 in 2004 and bought a Tundra. That ended my 4-wheeling and prevented me from doing the dyno testing I had planned at a local speed shop's chassis dyno.  That was a bummer!

If and when I finally get a long block for my current 1986 XtraCab (sitting on jack stands), I most likely will go with the cam recommended by the long block builder, so testing other camshafts may not happen.

After the new long block in broken in and fine tuned, I will probably test the new engine on a chassis dyno just because I'm curious.

Gnarls.

[2manytoys]

The dyno is really the best way to see what you actually get. Too bad your plan to do so didn't happen. I don't think anyone has ever done a 22RE dyno cam comparison. Not as public information anyway. You can also dial them in on a dyno. Little changes can sometimes make a big difference. A carb spacer change for example.

I bought my 88 from a friend. He was the original owner and I did most of the wrenching on his truck. I think he had it 17 or 18 years. He was buying NWOR and Downey parts back then. His truck was his DD and mods were for hunting. Dirt trails and sand wash Arizona stuff. Pretty mild. torsion bars and rear leaves, header and exhaust, 31" tires and 4.56's with Detroit Tru-Trac's and the heavy flywheel. I put 3 different cams in it for him. I didn't pull the head to swap any of the cams. I wish I remember what cam he liked. Either NWOR or Downey??? Anyway that was my closest cam shootout.

I'm also building an 86 Xtra Cab right now. On stands as well. 4Wheelunderground front 3 link is in, 3.4, R151F and dual ultimate cases are in. Lots of sheet metal mods going on to fit 37's and waiting for the rear 4 link parts.

I have a feeling you'll end up doing a cam shootout once you dyno your engine. You seem too invested at this point to let it go. Good luck with your build.

Scott

[Gnarly4X]

... I have a feeling you'll end up doing a cam shootout once you dyno your engine.
Scott

Hey Scott,  thank you.

Back when I was prepping for some testing, I spoke to a dyno shop in Chandler and it would have been about $600 to $1000 to do 3 cams, I had selected, on their engine dyno.

Engine dyno testing is really nice because 3 cams could be tested the same day.

Chassis testing is about $100 for 5 pulls – but the comparison is less accurate – I would have to go home, swap cams, then drive back to the speed shop.

I installed ARP studs in the block last time I replaced the head, so it should make it easier to swap cams.

Yeah... no...I have never seen an actual cam comparison on a 22 on any dyno.

Strangely, even the complete cam specs are often kept highly confidential and not made public by some cam suppliers.

My plan is to restore my 86 to as close to factory as possible.  I think I would have had it completed by now, but the engine failure really put major ding in my project.  I will not being doing any serious wheeling with this XtraCab.

If I do any wheeling in the future, it will be as a spectator.

Are you posting your build here?

Gnarls.

[2manytoys]

A stock or close to it restoration on your 86 is a good project. Great little trucks.

My latest build came about by chance. My wife and I wanted just a little more room in the 88. Originally we talked about just a cab swap. Also wanted to link it. I found a rancher selling this 86 cheap that had been abandoned on his property since 1999. The cab is pretty straight. The back of the bed is beat and everything is sun baked to a crisp so I didn't feel bad about hacking it up.

I sold the engine, trans, T-case, wheels and even the IFS to help pay for the build. Other than the dash and rear trim panel, the interior was shot. I bobbed the bed 12", which happened to be where the damage was. Most of my 88 is going on the Xtra cab and what's left will be sold or parted out. I'm on a budget too. I have a credit card but, I don't use it. I pay in full as I go.

Sorry for the highjack. My build thread is on IH8MUD if you want to check it out.  https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/86-xtra-cab-build-4wheelunderground-3-link-front-4-link-rear-and-3-4-swap.1256336/

[sirdeuce]

I still like the reversed split 250/60 cam.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey Scott,

After 45 years of off-roading, I've seen a lot!

I've seen too many times a guy with a beautiful fairly new vehicle.

He comes to our 4-Wheelers club meeting.

He goes on a couple of easy trail runs.

He get's the bug, but only asymptomatic.

Then he goes on a 3 or 4.

Now he's symptomatic, but the disease is in the incubation stage.

His vehicle is not setup for the carnage it gets on his first level 5 trail run.

The infection advances and causes mild cognitive impairment.

There's no ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine for this infection - this virus is psychosomatic, and did not come from a bat.

One bad side effect of this infection is partial insanity.

Egomaniacal tendencies become very obvious.

His personality has mutated and develops serious OCD.

He spends $10k, $20K, $30 on modifications.

Now is can't drive it on the highway.  He buys a trailer.

Wait... he needs a big RAM diesel pickup to pull it.

He takes out a 2nd mortage on his house to buy a $50,000 toy hauler.

After about 3 seasons his once beautiful $40,000 Jeep is destroyed and practically unrecognizable.

OH... it goes over BIG EFFING rocks!!   

If he sold all the parts, he might get $10,000.

So, if I went back in time, my 1985 22R shortbed was in incredible condition. I would restore it and make it a daily driver ONLY.

Experience is the Mother of Wisdom.

Knowing what I know now, for rockcrawling I'd buy a beater, not unlike what you're working on, and wheel the crap out it and not worry about looks or aftermath.

Option 2 is I'd probably get the bug, and go partially insane, and build buggy!!

My current 1986 is in incredibly stock condition.  Hopefully, when I get a long block and I can restore to near stock condition, with some nice – not so noticeable -  modifications, I'll have my daily driver back.

Highjacked planes and cars are bad, highjacked forum threads are not.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I still like the reversed split 250/60 cam.

Have I looked at a reverse split? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I still like the reversed split 250/60 cam.

Can you give me some cam specs?

I will run some numbers.

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Can you give me some cam specs?

I will run some numbers.

Gnarls.

It was the Schneider 250/60 with the in/exhaust specs reversed. You ran the cam before, I took a quick look but didn't find it. It's in this thread somewhere.