CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE

[Groundpounder17]

With oversize valves and proper port work the low end grunt can get BETTER! If the work done is for all out racing and targets top end you will lose in the bottom. Find someone that knows the difference.

Sirduece, Jim over at 22reperformance has oversized valves in the flavors of 1mm and 3mm oversize.  What do you consider to be adequate when it comes to oversized valves?  I' thinking that 3mm oversize is for radical builds only.  What is your thoughts on this? 

I don't know who it was I was talking to there one day, either Jerry or Jim, but they told me on their built 22RE engines (I believe he was talking about the stage 2) that he usually gets around 135 hp and he couldn't even give me an estimate on the carb engines.   I am guessing with a carb we could expect about 15 hp less so maybe around 120ish.   Those numbers don't sound that dramatically impressive for the money spent on those builds.  I would think with a mild build, cam, headers, and exhaust we could get better numbers than this. 

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarls

I know this is an older thread, but I just got done reading through this one and the one you posted back in 2017 (Thinking about getting a bigger cam). Both had a ton of really useful information and I think will really help me with picking the right cam for my situation. However, I had a question that didn't seem to get covered.

Specifically in the "Thinking about getting a bigger cam" Thread, there were multiple people who seemed to indicate that in the real world the engbldr 261C falls on its face hard at high RPM. They even went so far as to say they felt the stock cam carried RPM better. Looking at the numbers from your engine analyzer, this seems impossible. Do you have any idea why this discrepancy exists?

Fuzz

Hey Fuzz...

I'm glad that my posts actually help some people.

I am not an engine builder and I am definitely not a camshaft expert!

Camshafts seem to be a mysterious component in most engine builds.

I started studying them for my 22R back in 1999.  I was surprised that there was such little published real data on them for the 22s.  I was about to do some serious chassis testing when I totaled my 85.  I was devastated, and gave up 4-wheeling.

To your question... I collected lots of comments and experiences where I could get feedback from the guys that had swapped cams or decided on a profile for their special rebuild.  The feedback was very interesting.

In my recent build, the RV head came from engnbldr and had 1mm oversized valves with some mild machining around the valve seat in the chamber.  The 261C in my rebuild did NOT do what some guys said it did in their engines.  That cam definitely would rev as high as I wanted.  And I did tach it to 6,000 RPMs more than once.  Now... it was very strong from off idle to about 2500 RPMs, at that RPM its like it came on again, and pulled hard 4800 RPMs.  After 4800 RPMs is still pulled but the torque seemed to fall off a little, which is what the EA data shows. That drop in torque is noticeable, and appears to be typical for the cam profiles tested in my Engine Analyzer software.  But it did not "fall on it's face".

My 1985 shortbed had a head job, stock, and a new Toyota stock cam.  That little 3200 lbs. pickup would blow the doors off both my 1986 pickups (longbed automatic and Xtracab).  I had it to the Glamis sand dunes several times and ran it at 4000 and 5000 RPMs all day long in the dunes.  Only a few V-8 powered Jeep could keep up with me.. I sandrailed in Glamis for 8 years, so I had some advantage on most of the guys in our 4x4 club.  What's my point?  The Toyota stock cam profile is a very very good cam!  Those Japanese engineers at Toyota knew a thing or two!!

So what do you want out of your engine?

What camshafts are you thinking about?

Gnarls.

[FuzzForce]

Gnarls,

I am actually looking to move peak power out to 5500ish rpm maybe closer to 6k.

I have a 92 base 2wd with a 5 speed. The thing only weights 2600 lbs and is on stock tires, so I don't really have the same limitations most people do.

However, I don't want to completely tank the torque either. I'm not looking to turn the thing into a civc, I just want to be able to rev the thing out. Its just so damn satisfying.

From what I can tell, looking at the cam data you have provided, 5300 rpm is pretty easily doable with little impact to low end torque production. It might honestly be the sweet spot.

I would be really interested to see what happens with some of the larger offering, the 258-66F or 260F(might be too much cam for the ecu) seem promising, as does the engbldr (redline crank and cam) 268C. For right now I think that's where I'm thinking I want to be.

Fuzz

[FuzzForce]

Gnarls

One other thing I just realized, I was looking at Schneiders website and they list all of their gross lift numbers with a 1.55 rocker arm ratio. The 22r has a rocker ratio of 1.5 so all of the lift numbers are slightly exaggerated. For example, the 250-60F you ran in EA should have intake lift of .416 and exhaust of .425, not .430 .440.

Fuzz

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarls

One other thing I just realized, I was looking at Schneiders website and they list all of their gross lift numbers with a 1.55 rocker arm ratio. The 22r has a rocker ratio of 1.5 so all of the lift numbers are slightly exaggerated. For example, the 250-60F you ran in EA should have intake lift of .416 and exhaust of .425, not .430 .440.

Fuzz

Hey Fuzz....

Since many of the cams I tested were spec'd for 20R and 22R.  The 20R have steel rockers and rocker ratio of 1.43  The 22s have aluminum rockers with a ratio of 1.50, according to the "experts"

My objective was to make comparisons, so I just took the  1.43 and 1.50 added them together and divided by 2 = 1.457

Where a manufacturer actually specified the rocker ratio, I used it in the calculation.



The difference typically is:

peak torque - 157  - rocker ratio = 1.457
peak torque - 156  - rocker ratio =  1.55

average torque - 139 - rocker ratio = 1.457
average torque - 139 - rocker ratio = 1.55

peak HP - 127 - rocker ratio  = 1.457
peak HP - 132 - rocker ratio  = 1.55

average HP - 95.0 = 1.457
average HP - 95.6 = 1.55

For this example the RPM range is 1800 to 5400.

Compcam does not spec the rocker ratio for their Toyota 20R and 22R (1974-1989) 252S Grind is spec'd at Gross Valve Lift 0.42/0.42.  If I change the rocker ratio to 1.50 the Gross Valve Lift changes to .432 - .432.  So can you explain how to get a calculated Lift 0.42/0.42 - per CompCams spec with a rocker ratio of 1.50?

Again, the numbers are for comparison.  I can use any rocker ratio you want and produce the numbers for you.

By the way, the valve lash setting may change duration.  Tighter lash improves HP at higher RPMs, looser lash keeps torque in low RPMs

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarls,

I am actually looking to move peak power out to 5500ish rpm maybe closer to 6k.

I have a 92 base 2wd with a 5 speed. The thing only weights 2600 lbs and is on stock tires, so I don't really have the same limitations most people do.

However, I don't want to completely tank the torque either. I'm not looking to turn the thing into a civc, I just want to be able to rev the thing out. Its just so damn satisfying.

From what I can tell, looking at the cam data you have provided, 5300 rpm is pretty easily doable with little impact to low end torque production. It might honestly be the sweet spot.

I would be really interested to see what happens with some of the larger offering, the 258-66F or 260F(might be too much cam for the ecu) seem promising, as does the engbldr (redline crank and cam) 268C. For right now I think that's where I'm thinking I want to be.

Fuzz

Hi Fuzz...

As you know when you move the HP out in RPMs, you typically see a drop in torque numbers at the lower RPMs... that's the trade-off.

Just by the numbers, I'd be considering one of the Schneider profiles.  And with their Lobe Separation for EFI - 112degrees - it should work fine with Toyota's stock ECU/EFI. The 260F only has an overlap of 2.9 degrees, which should not pose a problem for the ECU.  But there are others specs to consider in the engine... i.e. valve float at 6,000 RPMs??

If you pick a cam, I can run the numbers for you.

Before I would make a final decision, once I knew what the blueprint on the engine was going to be, I'd most likely talk to Jim at 22RE Performance, try to get a hold of Tim at DOA, and Tim down in Tucson at TCR Automotive and Performance, and the boys at LC Engineering..... just for more input and expert opinions.  I would like to talk to the guys at CompCams and at Schneider Cams also.

Of course there are some guys here that have done lots of performance enhancements to their engines!!

Gnarls.

[FuzzForce]

Gnarls

I was really confused by your question until I looked at the comp data sheet. It states cam lift at .288" which is .432 with a 1.5 and .411 with 1.43 . Just seems lazy honestly.

I completely understand that you cant get something for nothing but I have watched enough episodes of engine masters where they make a change which nets them 5 peak hp and they loose 30 ft lbs of torque or power everywhere else. That's not a change worth making and as your get into larger cams the chances of that being the tradeoff increases. I'm sure I'm not telling you something you dont already know .

Thanks for the offer to run a cam. That's going to be super helpful!

I will definitely reach out to the experts and see what they think. I know there must be valve float work around as people who circle track these things rev the crap out of them, but I'm also trying to do this on the cheaper end.

I'll share anything I learn.

Fuzz

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarls

I was really confused by your question until I looked at the comp data sheet. It states cam lift at .288" which is .432 with a 1.5 and .411 with 1.43 . Just seems lazy honestly.

I completely understand that you cant get something for nothing but I have watched enough episodes of engine masters where they make a change which nets them 5 peak hp and they loose 30 ft lbs of torque or power everywhere else. That's not a change worth making and as your get into larger cams the chances of that being the tradeoff increases. I'm sure I'm not telling you something you dont already know .

Thanks for the offer to run a cam. That's going to be super helpful!

I will definitely reach out to the experts and see what they think. I know there must be valve float work around as people who circle track these things rev the crap out of them, but I'm also trying to do this on the cheaper end.

I'll share anything I learn.

Fuzz

Hey Fuzz..

Yeah... my dilemma when I started my research was simply the lack of real information.  Most of it was just marketing hype.

The 261C engnbldr cam has an overlap that may be causing an issue with mamma ECU.  One of the guys I was communicating with who had been testing cams in his 22RE said the 261C was causing a lean fire condition. At that time he said he thought the 261C would work really good in a 22R.  I later looked at the overlap and think it may be the cause and was a tad too much (6.7 degrees) for mamma ECU to compensate for.  That is purely speculation on my part. Back in 2000 I asked Ted at engnbldr about the lean fire and he said he had never seen it with the 261C profile.   Also the 261C has a tight valve lash spec at .007/.009, which in my engine, made the exhaust valves tighten up.  I had to keep checking and re-adjusting my valve lash for the 26,000 miles I drove it before replacing the engnbldr head with a stock head and back to my stock camshaft.  The engnbldr head with OS valve and the 261C produced very noticeably more torque and quicker throttle response than the stock head and cam.

Are you using a software app to do those calcs?  You appear to know what those numbers mean.

The Performance Trends Engine Analyzer software is very sophisticated and probably the best on the market for low end analyzer software.  I've used it in several versions since 1999 when may late nephew gifted me a package for Christmas.  He was a Mopar engine builder and knew his stuff and was well-known around the early Hemi engine builders.  He also built an early 22 just for fun for his little Toyota RV. 

Testing an engine on a SuperFlo 902 can tell you a lot on a graph, but until it is in a vehicle and then driven, you really don't know sure what it will do.

If you think you might possibly do any cam swapping, I highly recommend you install ARP studs.  That way you won't risk getting oil or coolant down into the block bolt holes if you swap a cam without pulling the head.

As you know these engines were not designed for high end RPM, but you certainly can build one that craves 6,000+ RPMs.  My goal has always been to increase torque between 2500 and 3500 RPMs because that is where I drive 99% of the time.

I haven't seen a post from sirdeuce lately, he has quite a bit of experience with these engines and could share his thoughts.

Gnarls.

[FuzzForce]

Gnarly

No I wasnt using any software, that is just from the cam specs on comps website with the rocker multiplier. I honestly think I might be a bad thing if I had engine software like that. I dont think I would ever leave my computer.

I reached out to Jim at 22re performance about running the engine at 6k. I will post any info I get from him. He also mentioned that he sells a cam that would work for my application. I didn't realize they sold cams, there arnt any listed on their website. I asked Jim for the specs and I'll post them up as soon as he gets back to me.

Fuzz 

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarly

No I wasnt using any software, that is just from the cam specs on comps website with the rocker multiplier. I honestly think I might be a bad thing if I had engine software like that. I dont think I would ever leave my computer.

I reached out to Jim at 22re performance about running the engine at 6k. I will post any info I get from him. He also mentioned that he sells a cam that would work for my application. I didn't realize they sold cams, there arnt any listed on their website. I asked Jim for the specs and I'll post them up as soon as he gets back to me.

Fuzz 

Well... I cannot come up with an exact number, but I spent hundreds of hours on my computer with that software and researching camshafts for my 22R.

Yes, Jim's cam profiles are probably VERY good!!  He knows his stuff and I believe he has an engine dyno and a flow bench.

I have several of his cam specs, BUT I think he is reluctant to share them publicly, and I don't blame him. Although measuring a camshaft profile is not difficult.

If you get the specs, I'd really like to see them (send them to my personal email).  I will not publish them and only use them in my EA software.

If there is anyone that I would trust to talk about a 6,000 RPM 22, it would be him.  I've had multiple phone conversations with him, and Jerry, over the past 4 years.

The cam profile must be carefully selected while considering the intake, head, valves, and exhaust... it is all about FLOW.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

....
I am really interested to see how the stock cam with stock valves feels in my rebuild now.

Since we are on the topic....  just my experience with an engbldr RV head and 261C cam.

After my head gasket failure on my rebuild  --   https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100729.0;message=1163383  --


https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100729.0

I pulled the head (engnbldr RV, 1mm OS valves and 261C cam) and took it into my cylinder head shop here in Phoenix.  John examined it and said that all 4 exhaust valves were not closing, the valve springs were distorted, and it looked like the valve seats were never matched to the valve faces.  He he was surprised it even ran well enough to drive it.

I told him about my apparent ring failure and that engine was *using* about 1 quart of oil every 600 miles and that a 22RE engine builder believed I got a bad set of rings in my rebuild kit.

John suggested to NOT rebuild the head since I will most likely have to pull the engine and rebuild it. The cost would be more than a new head.  So I opted for his recommendation on a new stock head and stock Toyota valves and I installed my original factory camshaft that came out of the engine before I did the rebuild.

I noticed immediately that there was a definite drop in power and the throttle response was sluggish.  I spent time tuning the heck out it.  BUT.. it still just did not have the torque and RPMs that the RV head with 1mm oversized valves and the 261C cam had.

Since Covid-19 I've been working from home and have not driven my Xtracab more than a few hundred miles.  I need to do a compression check and fix oil leaks, determine oil consumption, and then start a new piggy bank for a long block from 22RE Performance.

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Hey Fuzz. Easiest way to kill a cams characteristics is not tuning for that cam. Most disappointments from from installing "bigger" cams comes from the lack of support  mods. No such thing as "drop in" really. Factory tune allows for several scenarios with the stock equipment. Change any one thing and expect some lack in performance somewhere. Tuning is done as a "balanced package", too much or too little here or there will throw the whole thing off.

[Gnarly4X]

Deucie!!!  If you don't mind me being overly inquisitive.... Where have you been??

Gnarls. 

[sirdeuce]

Work. Out of town. 6 10s. $$$$

[Gnarly4X]

Work. Out of town. 6 10s. $$$$

Been there, done that once for 11 months... 7 10s. same $$$$$... .wasn't worth the $$$$$.... took a physical toll on my body, mind, and spirit!

My first year of college I worked full time from 4pm to midnight.  Then I got up studied and went to classes. At 19 I somehow did that with NO illicit drugs and without major bad effects.

One night after our shift, the guy that I worked with (kind of a tobacco chewing redneck, who was not going to school, but had a day job), and I are walking to our cars in the rain, I asked "Dave, why are we doing this!" He looked at me and said "Gnarls.... money isn't everything, but it's WAAAY ahead of whatever is in 2nd place!"

"The love of money is the root of all evil"

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

I hate money! It is however, a necessary evil.
No, money isn't anything, my wife is everything!

College, hmmm. I was fresh out of the ARMY, married with 3 kids. I worked two jobs and carried 17.5 units per semester. Don't know how I survived that.

[Cheesemaker]

Gnarls what do you think about these cam specs?

220/230 @ .050", 257/268 adv, .413"/.427" lift, 110 lob sep, lash .012"/.012"

I got a back up engine when I got my BUILT engine, and it had a cam from http://www.oregoncamshaft.com/index.html
I called them monday to find out about cam # OC1157.  And after talking to the guy, who sounded like he had a stroke and I could barely understand him.  I ended up emailing them for the specs.  The cam is their RV1 level for 22R/RE.  I couldn't get much more info from them.

Been trying to compare these cam specs to others online, and I am not finding much that seems close to these specs.  It was in a running engine, but I am not sure on what mods were done to the EFI to make it work if it needed it. 

[Gnarly4X]

Hey C...

Wow... those are some interesting cam specs.

Is the cam for a 22R or 22RE?

What are the engine specs that the cam would be installed in?

I will run some numbers for you and post them tomorrow.

Gnarls.

[Cheesemaker]

It was in an unknown 22re recently rebuilt.  Not sure of the exhaust, or if it had a stand alone efi.  I got the motor for $400.  What I do know is it was in a 4 Runner that was rolled, and they swapped it into a crawler.  But they never got the crawler running.  But my plans were for a bored .040" balanced and blue printed bottom end, with a port matched polishing on intake.  but stock intake, efi, exhaust, and minus the cat.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey C....

Holy Crapity!!  I quickly plugged those cam specs into my EA software using the same engine specs as I did with my Cam Comparisons - it is producing some huge numbers!!  I've been working 13 hour days, so I'm not super sharp right now, but just the first look shows some really high numbers.  I ran it at my standard initial RPM check level - 1800 thru 5400 in 400 RPM increments.  Peak torque is 164 ft. lbs at 3400 RPMs!!  Peak HP 155 is 5400 RPMs!  I have to make sure I didn't change any engine specs.  The only concern is the overlap for a 22RE!  At 7.1 degrees, mama ECU might not like it?  BUT.. in a 22R.... OMG!!

I need more time to do more checking and run the numbers out from 1K to 5K at 100 RPM increments.  That cam blows the numbers off anything I've seen for "in the middle" cam profiles.

I'll be back....

Gnarls.

[Cheesemaker]

Hey C....

Holy Crapity!!  I quickly plugged those cam specs into my EA software using the same engine specs as I did with my Cam Comparisons - it is producing some huge numbers!!  I've been working 13 hour days, so I'm not super sharp right now, but just the first look shows some really high numbers.  I ran it at my standard initial RPM check level - 1800 thru 5400 in 400 RPM increments.  Peak torque is 164 ft. lbs at 3400 RPMs!!  Peak HP 155 is 5400 RPMs!  I have to make sure I didn't change any engine specs.  The only concern is the overlap for a 22RE!  At 7.1 degrees, mama ECU might not like it?  BUT.. in a 22R.... OMG!!

I need more time to do more checking and run the numbers out from 1K to 5K at 100 RPM increments.  That cam blows the numbers off anything I've seen for "in the middle" cam profiles.

I'll be back....

Gnarls.

Well, my gut feeling right now is right then.  I need to go with my stock cam shaft.  So let me know before the weekend.  Because I need to get off my ass and assemble this thing and get in my truck. 

[Gnarly4X]

Hi C....

I ran the numbers on that Oregon cam profile based upon your specs in the same engine as I did with the others in the Comparison Sheet.

As you can see, I have never seen numbers that high for any cam I've compared.

Quite frankly I'm amazed. Those numbers almost seem unreal.  I've never seen so much torque and torque numbers that stay so flat into the upper RPMs. The HP is "off the chart"!

I would love to see this cam in a modified 22R (like a Stage 2) on an engine dyno!

With an Intake/Exhaust Centerline of 110 degrees, the overlap is 7.1 degrees.  If I change the Centerline to 112 degrees, the overlap drops to 5.9 degrees.  So, if I were going have Oregon Cams grind me this cam, I'd talk to a cam engineer about the Centerline for a 22RE. At a Centerline of 114 degrees, the peak torque drops to 159, and the HP goes to 158, however the overlap drops to 4.8 degrees. 

The overlap on a Toyota stock cam is 2.6 degrees.

Again, I don't know how a Toyota stock 22RE ECU will respond to a range of cam overlap?  But... my engine with the engnbldr 261C, with an overlap of 6.7 degrees, I had a slight blubber at about 1000 to 1800 RPMs.  I am only speculating that the overlap may have caused that. 

Based upon your engine specs, I'd go with the Toyota stock cam.  I'd install ARP studs into the block... Later if you decide to swap a cam and add a header and exhaust, or do a head swap with a worked-over head from 22R Performance, it would be way easier with the ARP stud kit installed.

I would definitely like to have a conversation with Oregon Cams.

I've updated and attached the new Excel sheet here.

Let me know what you think.

EDIT:  The Excel sheet has been temporarily removed for updating.

Gnarls. 

[Cheesemaker]

Thanks Gnarls.  I got digging thru my pile of Toyota stuff, and found some 22R intake manifolds, and I would like to build a 22R with that cam, and see what it can do.  And I have a TRD stage 2 cam also.  Could you run these numbers?     

0.430"   0.444"   278°   287°   224°/234°

From Rogers Browns site.  http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/EngineMods/index.shtml#CamSpecs  But the papers I have, or photo of cam specs, has the numbers different than what Rogers site has.  If you want, I can text you the actual picture of the specs.   

[Gnarly4X]

Hi C....

MAN!!!... I think that Oregon cam in a 22R, 40 over, CR about 9.75 to 10, a ported head with bigger valves, a DT header and 2.25" exhaust would be a KILLER engine!!

I'd give my left testicle to have my 1985 22R back!!

Yeah.. I can run numbers for you. I have the TRD cam specs, but I'll check. 

Could you PM me or send that cam spec to my email?  By the way, its not totally unusual for cam specs to change from the same manufacturer for the same cam.  And, I've seen cam specs published by a reputable Toyota supplier that were wrong.

I would like to have a conversation with Jim at 22RE Performance about the numbers that cam has produced on my EA software.  I'm really curious what his thoughts might be.

I would also like to talk the boys at Oregon Cams.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

The TRD cams (at least stage 1 & 2, probably 3) are Crane cams..............

I think you already have the specs.........

[Gnarly4X]

The TRD cams (at least stage 1 & 2, probably 3) are Crane cams..............

I think you already have the specs.........

Hey e....

Yes... the TRD cams were in fact the Crane cam specs.  And yes,  I have them, and the numbers on that TRD (Crane) cam are in the sheet. 

Using the "split" feature of Excel you can easily compare the numbers.

Gnarls.

[RN48]

Hey guys, any updates on these cam options?  My '82 22R took a dump and upon disassembly I found the aftermarket replacement cam was wiped with rocker damage to boot. Wanting to build a good solid reliable motor.  That Oregon Cam is intriguing.

[Groundpounder17]

Gnarls, have you looked at the Oregon cam anymore?

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarls, have you looked at the Oregon cam anymore?

This site???    http://oregoncamshaft.com/pass-cars.html

No.

Gnarls.

[Groundpounder17]

This site???    http://oregoncamshaft.com/pass-cars.html

No.

Gnarls.

Yes, referring to that one.   Could you run that cam profile with a mostly stock engine?  I will be running LCE header on my truck and new exhaust, but will have aisin carb and intake.  I'm going to hold off on a rebuild because my compression numbers are good and I only have 130K miles on the truck.  I would likely rebuild the head though.  So oversized valves, new rockers, port/polish, etc.  How do you think this would perform?