Topic: Supercharged 22r motor... need advice/HELP!

[debunker]

Okay, so I've got a camden supercharger 4" pulley, holley 500 bolted to a 82 22r.... motor is bored 40 over and decked, head was plained... Idk, (it was the first 4cly this shop has ever done, in 3 generaltions of owners).... its got apr studs and head gasket.

So heres where I might have really gone wrong, I bought 22ret pistons and put it in... cause I couldnt find a single difference in blocks... what ive learned is this probably lowered my compression. to much?

Idol is thing sound great... fuel pressure is an issue.. (why I had to rebuild the motor)
So I have LCE (efi to carb) regulator with a 3/8 return hose. hooked up to some deisel fuel pump thats suppose to pull 16psi...(my mechanical pump doesnt put out enough volume, I've got a efi gas tank, so tried that pump... had to drain my oil as the pressure put fuel through my WHOLE motor...)

Shouldnt I have consistant fuel pressure though? idk, so I hooked up and AF gauge to my o2 sensor... idol looks great...
timing set for a normal truck.

The Problem; truck doesnt go under load (putters out)..... is it compression or do I need to go to my 4th fuel pump?  idk what to buy at this point... is the regulator not working right?
Can I put a smaller pulley for more boost to raise compression?
do I get a 22ret head?

can anyone tell me what my compression is?

[sirdeuce]

Could be anything. Sounds like a fuel issue though. Should have a consistent fuel pressure, check Holley's recs on what it should be. Check the needle valve, if it's sticking it would restrict fuel to the bowl. Try tapping the carb where the fuel feed is, it can, at times, loosen the needle valve if it's stuck. You COULD have plumbed the regulator incorrectly, possible. Carb may need cleaning/rebuild.
Compression shouldn't be too low to make power, but using the turbo pistons with the '82 head would drop compression quite low, the pistons were designed for a totally different combustion chamber.
Check your cam timing, idle can be good with a tooth out but power would suffer immensely.
As for your compression ratio? Your '82 combustion chamber would be @83cc and those pistons were designed for an 8.5-1 compression ratio with a 58cc combustion chamber. Without much more info than provided, your compression ratio may well be in the sub 7-1 range. That would be good for 20lbs of boost on pump gas.
Just a few things to check.

[Gnarly4X]

can anyone tell me what my compression is?

Emphatically.... NO. 


When I read these posts I have mixed reactions. 

First, I wonder “is this guy real?”…. is this a “robo-post”…you know… like fake news!

Did you REALLY build a blown 22R and NOT know what the specs are? 

In 3 generations, the shop has never built a 4 cylinder engine?   

My 2nd reaction is…. Gee… I hope someone can help this guy!    sirdeuce… he probably has some good input.

You’ve asked some good questions, but I believe there are a bunch of questions that would have to be answered to even get close to giving real answers. 

Gnarls. 

[sirdeuce]

Emphatically.... NO. 


When I read these posts I have mixed reactions. 

First, I wonder “is this guy real?”…. is this a “robo-post”…you know… like fake news!

Did you REALLY build a blown 22R and NOT know what the specs are? 

In 3 generations, the shop has never built a 4 cylinder engine?   

My 2nd reaction is…. Gee… I hope someone can help this guy!    sirdeuce… he probably has some good input.

You’ve asked some good questions, but I believe there are a bunch of questions that would have to be answered to even get close to giving real answers. 

Gnarls. 

I agree, lotsa questions need to be answered before any concrete answers can be given. I just gave some generalization and pointed in a few directions.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey debunker,

Let's debunk your issues with some engine rebuild specs!!

Or.... should we just debunk your post? 

Gnarls.

[debunker [OP]]

Well , sorry for the late response. Lol, but yeah I have no idea what I'm doing.  The ret pistons I had put in where to low of compression. Put some CP Carrillo forged pistons in smoked those, the fuel regulator LCE sold me was bad, and the AF read wrong. Skipped the machine shop and rebuilt it myself, and that 500cfm never ran right. Running a holley super sniper w/ 65psi high volume fuel pump, about 7psi of boost, and as of current she does 90mph and chirps the 35s, but burns a bit of coolant cause I used a head gasket I guess... found my old post while looking for head gasket sizes and recommendations.   

[sirdeuce]

Welllllll, fuel injection really is the easy way to go unless you have the knowlege to tune a carb.

For a noosted engine I would suggest going with an MLS (multi layer steel) head gasket. The thickness depends on where your compression ratio is. MLS gaskets do require a smoother finish than composite gaskets, like a 20 Ra. With studs and a steel gasket blowing out the head gasket just about disappears.

So I will ask what your compression is. With 7psi boost you can get away with some decent compression. With the EFI and and premium fuel I'd say you could should for around 9.5-1 compression. If you plan to take the head off you might consider deshrouding and polishing the combustion chamber to help with flow and preventing detonation.

When you replace your gasket check the deck height of the pistons so you can get the right quench. Quench, the space between the piston head and the cylinder head (if you didn't know) should be about .032" with the 22R/E. I've been as close as .025" for street engines. The engine in my '89 2WD is closer to .100" and the damn thing pings with 91 Octane fuel, with a 9.5-1 compression. Any way, lots behind that gap, too much to cover with a couple-a sentences.

Getting the compression and quench right will go a long way with tuning and durability. Polishing the combustion chamber will hold the detonation down and reduce the carbon build-up. Routing air from the front of the truck to the intake side of the engine to cool the blower and intake can be beneficial. An Air to Water intercooler plate can help, if you can find one to fit.

If you want to get a little further in tuning a pressurized intake you can look into water/meth injection, and more boost.

Interested in one man's journey in supercharging and tuning an engine? Check out "BigMikes" Supercharged MR2 pages, should be gatting some updates soon.

After all that, glad to hear you got it going! Now you're hooked! You're going to find the biggest expense in modifying your engine like this is ..................

                                                                                            TIRES!

With a close second being clutches. 

[Gnarly4X]

Well , sorry for the late response.

 

Gnarls.

[debunker [OP]]

Well I got a 93mm bore cometic MLS head gasket. 0.4mm thick.  I've got domed pistons, so not sure how to measure how much lower they sit than the deck.. but it's a thingy hair. Should I sand down my head and block again?
When I blew a piston top I took the head into a shop and had it checked.  When I asked about porting/polishing the head, he said that was useless cause the supercharger.

I wanna just put it back together.... but I'd also like to do it as right as possible.

[debunker [OP]]

Got pics on yota tech
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f114/engine-spec-boosted-questions-316506/index3.html#post52489856

[Gnarly4X]

...  I've got domed pistons, so not sure how to measure how much lower they sit than the deck..

Bring it up to TDC. Measure from the top of the cylinder to the top of the outer edge of the piston. That's your deck height for calculating compression ratio (you want to get CR VERY RIGHT!). Measure the piston as if it were flat and subtract the dome volume from the combustion chamber CCs.

Then use the solder trick on where the piston comes closest to the head. You want to make sure the piston isn't going to contact the head and you want to make sure you have enough clearance to allow for dynamic rod stretch.

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Way you measure deck on a dome piston is on the edge.

I let the '82 engine slip my mind. Those dome pistons won't allow a 22RE head, totally different combustion chamber. Put an RE head on there and you'll break stuff. The combustion chamber in that '82 head is a semi hemi, not quite hemispherical, but round. Quench area is nearly none-existent. Might have just a slight ring around the edge.

Porting with forced induction does make a difference. As much as 10% of your boost pressure comes from resistance in the manifold and ports. Let's say you're registering 8lbs of boost, properly port the head and match the intake manifold and your gage will read 7.5 lbs of boost. With that lower boost you'll have more power as well.

What will help with your power output is a cam with longer exhaust duration and exhaust port work. Have the exhaust ports hogged out to the size of you header peimaries. Then a larger diameter exhaust system will make a difference. Open it up to the size of the collector exit.

Looking at the pics I see the intake air is coming across the top of the engine, and the intake is basically above the exhaust. Route that puppy away from all that unnecessary heat. Find a way to route it from the battery side of the radiator. If you get adventurous a hood scoop would do wonders at getting cooler air to you intake.

[debunker [OP]]

I can't even get an accurate measurement to start these calculations for quench.  If I put a straight bar across the pistons it's not the same height on one side as the other. And the other piston I measured isn't exactly the same height either about 3.45mm off the deck hight is what I've gueguesstimated. (Pics are up on that yota tech link now)

The air intake is routed really close to stock setup. I'm hoping to be able to use the snorkel one of these days.

It would probably be better over on the other side.. and porting and polishing the head would probably be better unless I flopp something up.

An I mean know offense, but last time I did what holley told me to do to my carb what an engine builder told me to do to tune my motor an put it all back together and it was worse, and I changed to many things to know what made it worse.

Now hopefully this current setup doesn't have an issue that's gonna smoke my motor in a few thousands miles. But she was running great. Other than my disapearing coolant.
Also a question that I've never been able to find a solid answer too, what do you all think is a good running temp for these motors. (Measured at intake manifold)

[a1gemmel]

Out of curiosity, what's the displacement of that supercharger and what ratio are you spinning it at? I have an Eaton M112 sitting on the shelf that I modified to fit a 4 barrel flange, it's the same as used on a 5.0 Mustang so is crazy overkill for a 22R but could be interesting...

[sirdeuce]

A 112 would be a bit large for a 22R, 112 cubic inches of supercharger  vs. 144 cubic inches of 22R. That's 112 ci per revolution pumpung into 72 ci per revolution from the 22r. If yoou did the 112 be mindful of your application and boost needs. Spinning the supercharger at lower speeds would reduce the charge temps, but might be detrimental to the superchargers efficiency. An M90 would be a better choice unless you plan to go full race and/or run race fuel or alcohol/E-85 all the time.
I entertained the idea of using the M112 a while back, they were very plentifulin the wrecking yards. The M90 was also available, and a better choice. With the T-Bird's M90 in and out lets an intercooler can be plumbed and an EFI or blow throough carb system can be made with less fab than the M112. Just a short version of  what I came up with. Helpful or not, do with it as you will.

[sirdeuce]

Another good choice for a street supercharger for the 22R is the SC14 from a Previa. I've looked at those for a 22R and I think mounting one would be relatively easy using the Air Pump mount for the pivot mount and modding or fabbing the adjuster arm. Would require changing the SC14's serpentine pulley to a V-groove or getting a serpentine pulley for the crank. That's as far as I got on that.

There is an SC14 knock-off available that has a V-belt pulley on it. Not sure how good that unit is yet, probably the same company that is making the AMR 300 and 500 knock-offs that people are playing with. I guess as long as the metallurgy and processes are good it should do well enough.

There is a company, Hyde Motor Works, that does SC14 installs on BMWs. Might see if they know if that Chinese SC14 is worth anything.

For reference, the SC14 is 1.4 liters, @85 ci. It's a straight, 2 lobe roots supercharger. As superchargers go, it's a hammer, but it does good enough.

[debunker [OP]]

https://camdensuperchargers.com/store/toyota-22r-holley-low-boost-supercharger-kit-cm-8500151-lb-#product-details-tab-description

It's the Camden supercharger. I think it's a 4" pulley. I have no clue the displacement. LCE engineering sells it as a bolt on.. and they are cunts

[sirdeuce]

Looking at the stated power upgrade for the Camden SC look pretty anemic, but I guess the stock power isn't that great either. I would rather see the torque output really. Those power numbers , I'm hoping are at the wheels.
Funny how to use the kit on a 20R it's necessary to use a 22R head. The reduced compression will require more boost to keep up with the 22R numbers. They should have made a 20R manifold as well, would have been better than the 22R off the git. Then the 20R head could be used on the 22R block getting the best of both worlds.

The displacement, as I found, for the 22R kitted Camden SC is 80 cubic inches. Falls right in the middle of the Toyota SC12 and SC14, 73ci and 85ci resepectively. (just for comparison)

The Camden kit is nice, just too pricey. Good mild upgrade.

[sirdeuce]

Looking at the manifold for the 22R, adapting the Eaton M90 looks doable. Hmmmm.

[debunker [OP]]

I'm not mad about the power at all. I've got a full steel roll cage  and bunch of extra running on 35s and its got no issues pulling its self around speedo only goes to 85 but honestly she's real freakin' wobbly fast that speed anyways

[sirdeuce]

Wobbly fast!    .........

[zippo]

I supercharged my 22re. Eh. I wouldn't do it again.  The power was okish,  ut is so limited for the money. Ended up blowing it up and swapped a 5vz. The 5vz is legit

[zippo]

https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=96772.90

[Gnarly4X]

Interesting discussion....

My take on doing a turbo or blower on a 22 is like really fun for very short time....

.....Then it's like flushing turd-size wads of $100 bills down the toilet... one turd at a time.

The turbo and blower built 22s have a long history of short-lived masochistic self-flagellation.

Forced Air Induction.... sounds like an expensive "blow-job" for an engine!

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Interesting discussion....

My take on doing a turbo or blower on a 22 is like really fun for very short time....

.....Then it's like flushing turd-size wads of $100 bills down the toilet... one turd at a time.

The turbo and blower built 22s have a long history of short-lived masochistic self-flagellation.

Forced Air Induction.... sounds like an expensive "blow-job" for an engine!

Gnarls.

For the most part tuning id the problem. Most peeps that pressurize their 22R start out with a stock, or stock rebuild. Then they just bolt on the 'ol supercharger or turbo without proper tuning, and, rattle rattle boom. The turbo guys are typically more tuning savvy, but blower guys seem to fall a bit flat when doing the carby thing. EFI tends to be better with a knowledgeable tuner. The stock tuning toyota put into the 22R-TE was not optimal, they had to work under the shade of the emissions tree.

Do the build with boost in mind and you can have a reliable FI engine. The Devil is in the details.

[zippo]

If you have the money and are doing it for fun. Yeah go for it.

If yoy are doing it for reliable cost effective power, I wouldn't. So many better options/swaps you can do for the same pricd/cheaper.

[sirdeuce]

If you have the money and are doing it for fun. Yeah go for it.

If yoy are doing it for reliable cost effective power, I wouldn't. So many better options/swaps you can do for the same pricd/cheaper.

"Cost effective"  and  "power" are two terms you should not use together when talking about a 22R/E. With the proper tuning and build practices reliability can be acheived, even with boost and other power adders. The 22R's enemy is elevated RPM levels. The block isn't stable enough through the harmonics. For a boosted engine at lower RPMs it doesn't really have any issues.

[Gnarly4X]

"Cost effective"  and  "power" ...

There is an inverse correlation between power and reliability.  PERIOD.

In any engine when power is increased reliability goes south. It’s simple physics.

The history of 22s being purpose-built for a blower or a turbo is well-documented.

The history of 22s bolting on a “boost kit” is well-documented.

The maintenance on a supercharged or trubo’d engine is much greater, therefore cost is greater.

The cost to build a supercharged or turbo’d engine is greater.

Can a boosted engine be built for reliability and power?  Yes. Look at the semi truck engines. However, those engines wouldn't work for Doug Kalitta.

Even the legendary factory stock 1985 96 HP 22R, with excellent maintenance, will go around 100,000 to 150,000 miles and need a new head gasket.

For the average Toyota guys and gals amongst us..... Like zippo pointed out, boosting a 22 for fun is great, but there are definitely more cost-effective options for power gains with better reliability in a 22.

That's just my opinion... it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Yes, power costs an engine's lifespan, but all I'm saying is done properly reliability can be maintained. Materials and processes have come a LONG way. The "R" series engines have been around for a long time, and they're everywhere! The shortcomings of the series is well documented, and it's biggest problem is RPM. I like to tell people to build their R's for low RPM output and pay attention to the torque curve. A boosted 22R with 200ftlb of torque at 3000rpm can last well into the 300k mile range if you drive it like you would NORMALLY. A 22R that puts 200ftlb of torque at 5000rpm will die a quick death since it will be necessary to maintain that type of driving. Hell, drive a stock 22R at 7000rpm all the time and you'll neve get that million mile engine.

Take into account my '81 Celica, first stroked 22R I did, '86, 8000rpm engine, drove it for 3 years without any more that regular schedule maintenance. Got me everywhere I wanted to go and the weekend bash at the AutoX. 60-70k miles a year, never a hiccup. What finally did it in was it's dropping the thrust washers into the oil pan. Maybe it was a fluke, who knows.

All I'm saying is a well planned and tuned build can get you what you want. If somebody would like to donate the parts and funds...........

Oh, as far as longevity in a boosted engine? It is pretty short because the operator will thrash that poor powerplant all the time. The pack mule will die on the trail if it's overloaded an run with the horses.

[Gnarly4X]

Oh, as far as longevity in a boosted engine? It is pretty short because the operator will thrash that poor powerplant all the time.

I think that is the key to a premature death.

Who would build a booster and then drive it like an old lady every Sunday for 10 miles back and forth to church.

My 1967 Stingray was very fast... a Mr. Richard Guldtrand built 327

I had my right foot into the Holley double pumper's secondaries ALL the time.

Gnarls.