Author Topic: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs  (Read 7626 times)

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V-Man

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Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« on: Dec 23, 2018, 03:13:58 PM »
OK changed the plugs in my wife's 4.7L today. Every plug I pulled out seems to have burnt ceramic insulators.  The plugs were also VERY tight and took a lot of grunt to get them out. The dealer put the last ones in and they are Denso. I am thinking they over tightened them and damaged the insulators.

Here are the pics

_IGP2134 by MICHAEL DONCASTER, on Flickr

_IGP2122 by MICHAEL DONCASTER, on Flickr

_IGP2120 by MICHAEL DONCASTER, on Flickr

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #1 on: Dec 23, 2018, 05:08:49 PM »
is it possible that it is rust and not burn marks?
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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #2 on: Dec 23, 2018, 05:32:48 PM »
.. I am thinking they over tightened them and damaged the insulators.



I think that residue in not uncommon on spark plugs.  How many miles on them?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #3 on: Dec 23, 2018, 05:33:58 PM »
is it possible that it is rust and not burn marks?


I cleaned the plugs off, and the burn marks are IN the ceramics not on the surface.  I have seen ceramic damage on insulators from arcing in Radio Amplifiers and, Antennas and Antenna tuners, so I know it's not rust.  I am thinking the dealer over tightened the plugs when they were installed and damaged the insulators. 13Ft/Lbs is not a lot of force.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #4 on: Dec 23, 2018, 05:37:49 PM »
I think that residue in not uncommon on spark plugs.  How many miles on them?

Gnarls.


ON yes, IN the insulator no.  ground into the marks and they are more the just on the surface. They seem to go from the surface to the center of the plug.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #5 on: Dec 23, 2018, 05:50:26 PM »
. I am thinking they over tightened them and damaged the insulators.


The Denso iridium for a 4.7 could be 19mm thread depth, which specs at 28 to 34 ft. lbs. of torque without lube.. that's a lot!

Those don't look like 19mm.  If they are 14mm - they spec at 7 to 15 ft lbs.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #6 on: Dec 23, 2018, 05:55:05 PM »
I don't remember seeing that kind of mark or burn on a spark plug.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #7 on: Dec 23, 2018, 08:21:58 PM »
How close are the plugs to the exhaust manifold?

I'm thinking heat from the manifold baked something on the plugs.
Ed
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V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #8 on: Dec 23, 2018, 08:27:42 PM »
The Denso iridium for a 4.7 could be 19mm thread depth, which specs at 28 to 34 ft. lbs. of torque without lube.. that's a lot!

Those don't look like 19mm.  If they are 14mm - they spec at 7 to 15 ft lbs.

Gnarls.

The toque spec I have in the manual is 13 Ft/Lbs.  If the dealer torqued them to 28 or 34 ft/lbs that would make them way too tight and likely did damage the insulators.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #9 on: Dec 23, 2018, 09:13:19 PM »
That pattern is definitely due to electrical arcing. Are you sure it wasn't the wires arcing to the plug across the ceramic portion?
« Last Edit: Dec 23, 2018, 10:02:32 PM by Prismo »
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V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #10 on: Dec 23, 2018, 10:17:28 PM »
That pattern is definitely due to electrical arcing. Are you sure it wasn't the wires arcing to the plug across the ceramic portion?

The only burns from arcing are around the section were the Ceramic insulator meets the outer nut/body of the plug.
they all look like this when they are cleaned.
_IGP2122 by MICHAEL DONCASTER, on Flickr

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #11 on: Dec 24, 2018, 04:33:00 AM »
Hey V-Man,

It could be a defective batch of plugs?  The burn looks like arcing from inside the metal where it mates to ceramic body.  It could be they were over-torqued and damaged the seal between ceramic and hex area?

Depending on the miles on wires and plugs, I'd replace the spark plug wires and the spark plugs.

I don't use anti-seize on my spark plugs.  I do use a little dab of dielectric grease on the inside of the plug wire boot and connector clip to make it easier to get the wire off the tip of the spark plugs.

I'm curious what the new plugs you install after 10K or 20K miles will look like?  I like the iridium spark plugs, and they are good for way more miles than plats.

Here's an interesting post on arcing...

https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/38523/what-could-cause-flash-over-arcing-to-reappear-on-new-plugs

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Dec 24, 2018, 05:32:41 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #12 on: Dec 24, 2018, 05:13:22 AM »
Gnarly4X, I agree the plugs were likely damaged and caused the problem.
Karen says there was  slow/sluggish throttle response till I changed the plugs yesterday.

I put Dielectric grease in the boot as well, and the Anti-seize I use is made with copper and has great conductivity.  If you brush a three inch long smudge across a piece of glass or plastic it still shows no resistance.  Do the same thing with a pencil ( pencils use graphite) you will have a resistor.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #13 on: Dec 24, 2018, 05:41:00 AM »
Gnarly4X, I agree the plugs were likely damaged and caused the problem.
Karen says there was  slow/sluggish throttle response till I changed the plugs yesterday.

I put Dielectric grease in the boot as well, and the Anti-seize I use is made with copper and has great conductivity.  If you brush a three inch long smudge across a piece of glass or plastic it still shows no resistance.  Do the same thing with a pencil ( pencils use graphite) you will have a resistor.


I'm glad you got the "power" back. Spark and fuel... two biggies for max performance!  :yesnod:

IF I were to use anti-seize on plugs, I too would use the copper or silver formulated anti-seize compounds.  :gap:

If the dealer was the last to touch the plugs, and did the dirty deed of over-torquing, it's a typical reason why some of us, myself included, have had a bad experience with the "expert" dealer technicians.  A good friend of mine is an ASE Certified auto tech and quit a dealership because they wanted "speed fixes" and not the quality repair work and the right way, he believed should be done.  He said basically the dealership was screwing its customers with less than correct repairs and quality workmanship.  That was quite a few years ago.  :blah:

Gnarls.  :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #14 on: Dec 24, 2018, 08:55:38 AM »
IIf the dealer was the last to touch the plugs, and did the dirty deed of over-torquing, it's a typical reason why some of us, myself included, have had a bad experience with the "expert" dealer technicians.  A good friend of mine is an ASE Certified auto tech and quit a dealership because they wanted "speed fixes" and not the quality repair work and the right way, he believed should be done.  He said basically the dealership was screwing its customers with less than correct repairs and quality workmanship.  That was quite a few years ago.  :blah:

Gnarls.  :spin:

Well I talked to the Service Manager, and the fleet Manager( In charge of the inventory at the dealer. They have been wanting to buy back the 4runner for a couple years now ) about the plugs being very hard to remove and showed them the plugs.  Service manager said the plugs in his option had been damaged and over tightened.  Fleet guy said that was not good, and the service manager looked up the records and found who had done the plugs at the last service( Karen paid to have it done).  turns out the tech was fired for "performance reasons."   He did a few thousand dollars damage to two vehicles .

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #15 on: Dec 24, 2018, 10:27:01 AM »
:eye:  Lots to say about this. When I get a second I will comment.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #16 on: Dec 24, 2018, 11:43:56 AM »
 :popcorn: :crazyhappy:
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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #17 on: Dec 24, 2018, 11:46:13 AM »
form what I have gathered, that means the plug is broken. it shouldn't be burned like that. the top half has started to separate from the lower half, usually due to over torquing or defective plugs to start with
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I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

:)bestgen4runner

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #19 on: Dec 24, 2018, 01:13:45 PM »
https://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/spark-plug-construction/
What You have found is perfectly normal. I have seen this on tons of spark plugs. It has little to no affect on anything. It is caused by a small amount of combustion gasses leaking past the sealing material between the ceramic and the steel shell. It is very common on plugs that have been installed for long periods of time.
Again it's normal. I would guess that the service advisor and manager You spoke to told You what You wanted to hear or don't know the construction of a spark plug. take a look at the exploded view from the link.  :twocents:
If You guys would like I can post pictures of piles of spark plugs with the exact same discolorations to prove it.
nothing wrong with being observant and picking up small details like this. It's equally important to set the record strait so others don't run around with fake news.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

300k

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #20 on: Dec 24, 2018, 01:22:48 PM »

So I saw a version of this where it only occurred on one side of the engine. Explanation?
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #21 on: Dec 24, 2018, 01:29:05 PM »
So I saw a version of this where it only occurred on one side of the engine. Explanation?
You show Me and I will explain.
was it a engine with NGK on one side and Nippo on the other?
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

300k

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #22 on: Dec 24, 2018, 01:30:59 PM »
You show Me and I will explain.
was it a engine with NGK on one side and Nippo on the other?


https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/why-after-10k-miles-are-my-spark-plugs-burnt.204481/

All Denso. Pics are about halfway down the page
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #23 on: Dec 24, 2018, 01:55:10 PM »
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/why-after-10k-miles-are-my-spark-plugs-burnt.204481/

All Denso. Pics are about halfway down the page
I don't think We are getting accurate info from this.
#1 Who the hell pull all of their plug out after they just replaced them 10k miles ago? On a truck they say runs perfect. A dumb ass?
#2 The guy used anti-sieze on one side only? another bone head move!
I'm going to go with the easy answer. We are not being given accurate info, not all the info, or incorrect info. Shocker  :yikes:
Sorry but after reading what these fools posted I am sure glad I don't sped any time at all on Tacoma world.
Won't be able to answer this one.
If I was to take a guess I would say that 3 plugs have been in for a while and the other three have not.  :twocents: this would also go along with My observation of them being morons.  :crossed:
Maybe it took all his mechanical skills to get the first three replaced and he needed to wait a week or two to get the others replaced. Then decided to take them out and take a look?  :hammerhead:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #24 on: Dec 24, 2018, 01:58:14 PM »
What You have found is perfectly normal. I have seen this on tons of spark plugs. It has little to no affect on anything. It is caused by a small amount of combustion gasses leaking past the sealing material between the ceramic and the steel shell. It is very common on plugs that have been installed for long periods of time.

What do you consider a long time six week, six months, six years?

so you are telling me that it was only "A LITTLE HOT GAS" escaping.  OK you are the expert.  Now Expert tell me how an escaping gas can be hot enough to burn Ceramic insulator but too "COLD" to bother the "PLASTIC" coil pack that it is trapped inside of?

Since the insulator in the plug is designed to operate in a temperature of 932 to 1472 Degrees F, the gases would have to pretty hot to burn the ceramic.   

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #25 on: Dec 24, 2018, 02:33:49 PM »
What do you consider a long time six week, six months, six years?

so you are telling me that it was only "A LITTLE HOT GAS" escaping.  OK you are the expert.  Now Expert tell me how an escaping gas can be hot enough to burn Ceramic insulator but too "COLD" to bother the "PLASTIC" coil pack that it is trapped inside of?

Since the insulator in the plug is designed to operate in a temperature of 932 to 1472 Degrees F, the gases would have to pretty hot to burn the ceramic.
#1 A long time based on Mileage. several Toyotas call out for the first spark plug change at 120k miles (a long time)
#2 I think I called it "a small amount of combustion gasses" and Yes it will be hot gasses and in some cases You will see a small amount of discoloration on the coil boot or plug wire. I have yet to see this cause an issue.
#3 I know You feel that the Ceramic is burned but I am confident it is just discolored.
#4 The sealed area between the Ceramic and the steel is an imperfect seal. I can sense that You have a lot of emotion invested in this issue and have Your heals dug in. My guess would be that no matter what I show You there will be no convincing You of anything other than what You think is correct.
#5 I feel that I am an expert when I comes to the Toyota product as I have spent the last 16 years working on them 40+ hours of every week. That said I am always learning things and keep an open mind everyday.
I recommend that everyone do the same.  :fakeflip:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #26 on: Dec 24, 2018, 03:42:31 PM »
#1 A long time based on Mileage. several Toyotas call out for the first spark plug change at 120k miles (a long time)


I am sure driving the 12 blocks to and from work, as well as trips around town has not put 120K Miles on the plugs in the last three months.

I can drive 120,000 miles in three months since I average 500 Miles a day six days a week at work.


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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #27 on: Dec 24, 2018, 03:48:03 PM »
Found the answer
https://youtu.be/wy9Y8FjTIb8

https://youtu.be/_EGpF-fj-5c

Feel free the thank Me
Thank You for helping Me learn something new
I would encourage You to take the time to call your dealership and tell them what You learned.
The good and the bad. Its the only way to be.
I hope this settles the debate
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

emsvitil

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #28 on: Dec 24, 2018, 07:25:30 PM »
They're showing corona stain as an even discoloration.

So, I would assume if it's streaky, it's exhaust leakage..... (along with some corona staining)
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #29 on: Dec 24, 2018, 08:10:11 PM »
They're showing corona stain as an even discoloration.

So, I would assume if it's streaky, it's exhaust leakage..... (along with some corona staining)
Jesus
FML I give up
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

 
 
 
 
 

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