Author Topic: Toybrota's 22R build  (Read 29154 times)

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #90 on: Oct 24, 2017, 06:37:32 PM »
I'd bet the torque values are the same.........
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #91 on: Oct 25, 2017, 04:34:56 AM »
This seems like a dumb question, but can I follow my 1985 FSM to build this motor? I know the torque differences might be different. If so, I'll just buy a 82-83 FSM on eBay. I'd hate to, I just need the engine building section.

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Actually that is NOT a dumb question.

After looking through upteen manuals and published manufacturer's catalogs over the past 40+ years, I have noted that there can be mistakes, misprints, misinformation, or changes over time.  So... I tend to do research and check sources for accuracy on critical specs.  Also, some torque specs in the Toyota manual I do NOT follow because the amount of ft. lbs seems too high (like the 38 ft lbs for the front axle spindle mounting bolts on a straight axle)... that's just my personal experience.

I have both Toyota Factory Truck & 4Runner Manuals - 1985 and 1986.  There are some differences in some of the specifications, like the piston specs.  So if you are relying on your local machine shop you would want to make DAMN sure that they have the correct specifications from Toyota, or they know what they should or could be between a 1985 and 1986 block, and other parts being machined or assembled, as an example.

Regarding the torque specs for the basic engine components - crank, rods, flywheel, camshaft, etc - they are the same. 

The one difference in torque specs between the spec in MY 1985 FSM and MY 1986 FSM is the oil pan to block.  In my 1986 manual it is 9 ft lbs.  In my 1985 FSM it is 52 in. lbs. which equals about 4.33 ft lbs.   NOW... that spec is in the back of the manual under Service Specifications Engine Mechanical.   BUT... in the Engine Mechanical Timing Chain sections, the manual describes in detail how to apply the sealant and torque the pan to block.  AND in that section the torque specs are the same for the 1985 and 1986 manual - both showing 9 ft lbs.    I would go with the 9 ft lbs spec, but perhaps someone could explain why there is a difference in the printed spec between the repair section and the specifications section of the back of the 1985 Toyota FSM.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Oct 25, 2017, 05:05:53 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #92 on: Oct 25, 2017, 05:04:18 AM »
The bolts holding my oil pan on my '85 are pretty wimpy. Didn't Toyota upgrade those bolts sometime in the mid '80s?

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #93 on: Oct 25, 2017, 05:21:09 AM »
The bolts holding my oil pan on my '85 are pretty wimpy. Didn't Toyota upgrade those bolts sometime in the mid '80s?

The same bolt has been used on the Toyota pickup and 4Runner from '79 to '95.  And many other Toyota vehicles in that year range.

In my limited experience, the bolts are not the issue, it's the sealant/gasket and keeping the bolts and 2 stud nuts properly tightened.  The oil pan for me has always been a source of oil leaks, and I take extra care to minimize that issue.  And, there are different opinions on sealants and gaskets for the pan to block.  I've tried different gaskets and RTV sealant, so far my recent rebuild I have no oil leaks around the oil pan on my 1986 22RE.  :crossed:

Since I learned a recommended bolt sealant from Permatex - the Thread Sealant w/PTFE, while I am replacing the seal and gasket on my input shaft housing on my W-56 tranny, the next time I have to drop the oil pan, or if it develops some leaks, I will try the Ultra Grey on the pan and the Thread Sealant w/PTFE on the bolts.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Oct 25, 2017, 05:31:07 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #94 on: Oct 25, 2017, 06:19:51 AM »
Actually that is NOT a dumb question.

After looking through upteen manuals and published manufacturer's catalogs over the past 40+ years, I have noted that there can be mistakes, misprints, misinformation, or changes over time.  So... I tend to do research and check sources for accuracy on critical specs.  Also, some torque specs in the Toyota manual I do NOT follow because the amount of ft. lbs seems too high (like the 38 ft lbs for the front axle spindle mounting bolts on a straight axle)... that's just my personal experience.

I have both Toyota Factory Truck & 4Runner Manuals - 1985 and 1986.  There are some differences in some of the specifications, like the piston specs.  So if you are relying on your local machine shop you would want to make DAMN sure that they have the correct specifications from Toyota, or they know what they should or could be between a 1985 and 1986 block, and other parts being machined or assembled, as an example.

Regarding the torque specs for the basic engine components - crank, rods, flywheel, camshaft, etc - they are the same. 

The one difference in torque specs between the spec in MY 1985 FSM and MY 1986 FSM is the oil pan to block.  In my 1986 manual it is 9 ft lbs.  In my 1985 FSM it is 52 in. lbs. which equals about 4.33 ft lbs.   NOW... that spec is in the back of the manual under Service Specifications Engine Mechanical.   BUT... in the Engine Mechanical Timing Chain sections, the manual describes in detail how to apply the sealant and torque the pan to block.  AND in that section the torque specs are the same for the 1985 and 1986 manual - both showing 9 ft lbs.    I would go with the 9 ft lbs spec, but perhaps someone could explain why there is a difference in the printed spec between the repair section and the specifications section of the back of the 1985 Toyota FSM.

Gnarls.
Thanks for the helpful tip, I have been debating buying an old manual from 81-83, as it would have a lot of stuff I need, but if most of the torque specs are the same I'm good with that. My main question is the timing guides and tensioner, and what those need to be at. What do you think?

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #95 on: Oct 25, 2017, 06:42:43 AM »
.... My main question is the timing guides and tensioner, and what those need to be at. What do you think?


If haven't already visited and bookmarked this site, Roger's site has an incredible amount detailed information!

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/EngineMods/TimingChain.shtml

The guide bolts have a boss on them so the bolt doesn't crush the guide.  As I remember the bolts for the tensioner do not, so be careful not to over tighten it and crush the tensioner.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #96 on: Oct 25, 2017, 06:48:05 AM »
...  I have been debating buying an old manual from 81-83, as it would have a lot of stuff I need....

If I put dollar bill in a piggy bank for every hour I spent reading my Toyota FSMs since 1986 - I'd have enough saved up to take a really nice All-Inclusive Caribbean Cruise!!!

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #97 on: Oct 25, 2017, 07:36:44 AM »
If I put dollar bill in a piggy bank for every hour I spent reading my Toyota FSMs since 1986 - I'd have enough saved up to take a really nice All-Inclusive Caribbean Cruise!!!

Gnarls.
Thanks, I plan on buying one. And one for 85.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #98 on: Oct 26, 2017, 06:52:29 AM »
LC Engineering saves the day :)



:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #99 on: Nov 09, 2017, 11:50:51 AM »
Hey everyone, taking the crank and rods Tomorrow to get done up!

However, I have a question, in regards to the flywheel. The flywheel from the early 22R is going to work with my Heavy Duty Marlin Clutch right? I know there is some differences in clutches through the years. I have a G52, not that it matters.

I'm going to get the rotating assembly balanced, so the shop says they need the rods, pistons, and the flywheel. It's $120 for the balance.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #100 on: Nov 10, 2017, 06:28:53 AM »
Took my rods and crank yesterday to get machined. I also, ordered pistons!! LCE Hyper pistons.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #101 on: Nov 13, 2017, 06:15:33 PM »
Checking the piston ring gap, it is pretty darn confusing I must say.

On the first compression ring, I got between .014" to .018" with all 4 top compression rings on all 4 cylinders. My block is bored .020"

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #102 on: Nov 13, 2017, 06:30:16 PM »
I believe I am a little confused about the end gap, I know the minimum gap, I calculated it, and I am above the minimum. What about the maximum? I can't seem to find a clear answer when it comes to the maximum gap. Could someone help me out? much appreciated!!

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #103 on: Nov 13, 2017, 06:41:14 PM »
as from the 85 truck and 4runner FSM


:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #104 on: Nov 13, 2017, 07:27:07 PM »
I believe I am a little confused about the end gap, I know the minimum gap, I calculated it, and I am above the minimum. What about the maximum? I can't seem to find a clear answer when it comes to the maximum gap. Could someone help me out? much appreciated!!

Which manufacturer of the rings did you buy from LCE?  The manufacturer of the rings will provide you the gap specs.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #105 on: Nov 13, 2017, 07:40:26 PM »
If the rings supplied with your LCE pistons are Hastings....

https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs/checking-compression-ring-gaps

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #106 on: Nov 14, 2017, 08:23:45 AM »
if you got hastings +1 to you. I prefer to use them in every engine i build unless otherwise instructed. all of my 22r engines have been built with hastings and i can say  i have been very pleased.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #107 on: Nov 14, 2017, 11:57:52 PM »

How do I know it's a heavy duty unit? Well, that's the reason I hate it. You rev the engine up to take off from a standstill, and start slowly letting the clutch in. Unless you're really careful, when the pedal is about halfway up the clutch grabs with a jerk and a ka-bang! and the truck shoots forward (on pavement) or spins a tire (on dirt) while the engine lugs down and almost stalls. After nearly 10 months of daily driving this clutch, I've got used to it somewhat, to the point where my love balances out my hate for it. But there's only so much "getting used to" can do.

you have a ceramic clutch nothing like the one I have from Marlin.   Marlin sells ceramic clutches but they are for racing or offroad.    I have the NON ceramic aka regular clutch in a 1200 lb flavor.   I installed this clutch in 2002 with a new slave and master because I was a little worried and they were old, like ten or more years.
  :driving:  I am still running the exact same slave and master the clutch/pressure plate were installed with.   It has a smooth feel like a normal clutch but has beefier components inside the pressure plate to clamp harder once the pedal is fully released.    it doesnt have weights on the outside like a centerforce that require the clutch to spin up to work.
it has a slightly heavier pedal feel but that is the only difference, well that and not burning the clutch out in 6 months.

If you go to a heavy duty pressure plate and sticky clutch disc, you might consider getting a new clutch slave cylinder - and having a spare.  Several guys I knew experienced the slave cylinder failure.  This failure on the trail without a spare will be a trail run you won't forget.

Several guys I knew who installed the CentreForce and heavy duty pressure plates did not like the way they grabbed on engagement.  I don't know how Marlin's kit works.

In 20+ years of wheeling, I saw more slave cylinder failures than I did clutch disc failures.

That's my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.






AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #108 on: Nov 15, 2017, 12:09:42 AM »
I believe I am a little confused about the end gap, I know the minimum gap, I calculated it, and I am above the minimum. What about the maximum? I can't seem to find a clear answer when it comes to the maximum gap. Could someone help me out? much appreciated!!

anything more than .030 ish and (if you arent running KeithBlack Hyper pistons anyway) and you start making a little blow by til the cylinder gets to operating temperature.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #109 on: Nov 15, 2017, 05:17:11 AM »
LC Engineering saves the day :)





I torqued my pressure plate bolts down to 14 lbs per FSM spec, using my little 3/8" ratchet.  At that torque spec, they did NOT feel tight enough for me, so I went to 30 lbs on my clicker torque wrench.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #110 on: Nov 15, 2017, 08:07:38 AM »
Which manufacturer of the rings did you buy from LCE?  The manufacturer of the rings will provide you the gap specs.

Gnarls.
I bought from LCE, I followed Hastings recommendation for the gap and I am over the minimum, which is good, as I know what can happen.
The maximum is what I'm having concerns about, I know the FSM says the max, but it doesn't give values for if your block is bored.

What does everyone think? I did a gap on all my rings, all of them are within the .014 to .018 range on all cylinders with all rings, tested at the bottom of the cylinder.

Does this value seem decent to you guys? I wanna make sure this thing lasts.

Sorry for the questions that many would feel are stupid, I just wanna make sure that this thing lasts!!!

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #111 on: Nov 15, 2017, 08:47:39 AM »
Using Hastings guide for the minimum gap, they recommend a minimum gap of 0.0127", all my values are between .014 to .018, so I'm definitely above the minimum gap.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #112 on: Dec 08, 2017, 06:29:32 PM »
This thread is not dead!

Got my timing set today, bought it on yotashop as they seemed to be the only place I could find that stocks an OSK kit.

I've heard great things about the OSK sets so I bought one, I used one when I did the chain on my truck 15K miles ago so why not get another?

This is a dual row kit, it has all the sprockets and the chain, all with that sweet MADE IN JAPAN stamp I love to see.

I wanted to do a comparison of some stuff from the kit, the gaskets, compared to my actual Toyota kit are different in material, the OSK kit has these paper gaskets, while the Toyota has these gaskets made out of some other material I can't exactly determine.

The Toyota gaskets are also thicker and seem like they will probably work better than the OSK kit, but looks aren't everything.

And the front oil pump seal, the one provided in the Toyota kit is super thin, about half the thickness of the OSK kit, which leads me to believe that the Toyota seal is designed to not ride in the groove the stock seal made from thousands of miles, so it probably rides on clean non grooved metal.

However this is all just speculation, I could be wrong. Just what I observed. Can't wait for my oil pump and water pump to come in so I can paint them. (Ford grey)



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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #113 on: Dec 09, 2017, 04:19:37 AM »

I've heard great things about the OSK sets so I bought one, I used one when I did the chain on my truck 15K miles ago so why not get another?

Question:  What happened at 15K?

Quote
This is a dual row kit, it has all the sprockets and the chain, all with that sweet MADE IN JAPAN stamp I love to see.

I would not have gone with the dual row chain, unless only option.... just my personal preference.

Did the OSK kit come with metal backed chain guides?

Quote
I wanted to do a comparison of some stuff from the kit, the gaskets, compared to my actual Toyota kit are different in material, the OSK kit has these paper gaskets, while the Toyota has these gaskets made out of some other material I can't exactly determine.

Unless you, or anyone else, is a Materials expert, how do you know what material is better or not?  The parts or materials used in an automated manufacturing environment may be entirely different than an aftermarket part, and using one or the other in a rebuild may or may not be the best choice.

Quote
The Toyota gaskets are also thicker and seem like they will probably work better than the OSK kit, but looks aren't everything.
  You are already 2nd guessing two of the best known quality manufacturers and brands on the planet?

Quote
And the front oil pump seal, the one provided in the Toyota kit is super thin, about half the thickness of the OSK kit, which leads me to believe that the Toyota seal is designed to not ride in the groove the stock seal made from thousands of miles, so it probably rides on clean non grooved metal.
  Again, you are making assumptions with zero understanding of facts.  Also, if your harmonic balancer and pulley shaft is grooved and you are concerned with the replacement seal leaking - replace the pulley.

Quote
However this is all just speculation, I could be wrong. Just what I observed. Can't wait for my oil pump and water pump to come in so I can paint them. (Ford grey)

To your credit, you did state your disclaimer.  I like your observations.  :beerchug:

And speaking of "speculation" and observations, there are lots of posts on lots of automotive sites that are simply someone's experience with a gasket - the subject of head gaskets for the 22s is a highly debated and discussed example.  BUT... rarely, if ever, do I read that someone's experience with a failure is backed by reasonable research, professional or scientific failure analysis, and any real facts.

Gnarls. 


« Last Edit: Dec 09, 2017, 04:32:07 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #114 on: Dec 09, 2017, 08:58:24 AM »
15K miles ago I did the timing chain on my 85 22R block that's in my truck, the guides went bad.

This OSK kit comes with metal backed guides, this is an early style dual row motor, so I wanted to only put parts in it that came out of it.

My assumptions on the gaskets are just that, assumptions. I know nothing, sure, I have experience with these parts but that means nothing.

I'm NOT trying to make myself sound like an expert, I'm simply just pointing out how the Toyota gasket is probably better. I wasn't even saying the seals we're lesser quality, just simply stating that to me, the Toyota seal looks designed to not ride in the groove that the old seal made.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #115 on: Dec 09, 2017, 01:49:50 PM »
There actually are 2 different seals that I know of. The thinner one is used by most so it'll seal against the crankshaft where the old one wasn't riding by allowing you to either place it deeper or shallower in the hole on the timing cover. I've done this in the past to get my leaks to stop.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #116 on: Dec 09, 2017, 05:33:40 PM »
The head gasket debate will continue.  I've used Fel-pro head gaskets on several 22-RE's, no problems/many miles, same results with Toyota head gaskets, so it's a toss-up depending on cleanliness of and attention to detail upon installation.  I've not had a head gasket returned except for a blown radiator hose/overheat problem-operator error.  My 2cents your experience may vary, no warranty implied.   :usa:
'85 Xtra-cab, 4.5" Downey Off-Road lift, 12-15 KM2's on American Racing Baja's, 4.10's, 4.7's, Downey Off-Road CAI, Marlin rear bumper & sliders

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #117 on: Dec 09, 2017, 05:44:54 PM »
15K miles ago I did the timing chain on my 85 22R block that's in my truck, the guides went bad.

This OSK kit comes with metal backed guides, this is an early style dual row motor, so I wanted to only put parts in it that came out of it.

My assumptions on the gaskets are just that, assumptions. I know nothing, sure, I have experience with these parts but that means nothing.

I'm NOT trying to make myself sound like an expert, I'm simply just pointing out how the Toyota gasket is probably better. I wasn't even saying the seals we're lesser quality, just simply stating that to me, the Toyota seal looks designed to not ride in the groove that the old seal made.

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Hey Toybrota,

Your post did not read, to me, like you were trying to sound like an expert.  Clearly you were just describing what you were seeing, and that is good information.

I have also had premature chain guide failure using the plastic guides.  I was kind of running an experiment, and surprised the plastic guides failed within such low mileage on a brand new timing kit.. as I remember is was a NAPA.

Experience means something for sure.

I'm looking forward to reading more as you post your progress.

In the words of Marilyn vos Savant...

"To acquire knowledge, one must study, but to acquire wisdom, one must observe."

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #118 on: Dec 09, 2017, 05:46:34 PM »
There actually are 2 different seals that I know of. The thinner one is used by most so it'll seal against the crankshaft where the old one wasn't riding by allowing you to either place it deeper or shallower in the hole on the timing cover. I've done this in the past to get my leaks to stop.

This is good to know.  :beerchug:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #119 on: Dec 09, 2017, 06:16:48 PM »
The head gasket debate will continue.  I've used Fel-pro head gaskets on several 22-RE's, no problems/many miles, same results with Toyota head gaskets, so it's a toss-up depending on cleanliness of and attention to detail upon installation.  I've not had a head gasket returned except for a blown radiator hose/overheat problem-operator error.  My 2cents your experience may vary, no warranty implied.   :usa:

Right... I heard and participated in discussions, way before there were internet forums (back in the 1960's), about head gaskets.  We've all probably read the posts over the years from a backyard mechanic ragging on FelPro because it failed.  Fel-Pro has a 100 year history.  It has developed, engineered, designed, marketed, and installed it's head gaskets in some the most challenging engine rebuild technology... diesel engines... compression ratios of 22:1, and millions of engines.

There is no doubt there is a range of quality in the parts being sold in the automotive industry....

like .... vegetables and toilet paper.   :gap:

Gnarls. :blah:

 




1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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