Topic: Ping...Ping...Ping

[Lewis Hein]

Hi all,

I am wondering if my 22R is damaged. It pings at times and places when, by all rights, it should be running better.

OK -- there is some rhyme and reason to the pinging -- usually pulling away from a stop sign up a steep hill. But that's about it for sense. Even revved pretty high (3000) in 2nd, it WON'T stop pinging if I'm trying to pick up speed while climbing even a moderately steep hill. As if this weren't strange enough, ethanol-free gas is worse than gas with ethanol at the same octane rating. The timing is (as far as I know) set correctly, and I'm using mid-grade (87??) octane gas.

Is it possible that my vacuum advance is not working? Or do I need to see about getting the HAC re-installed? (I am at 5500 feet above sea level)

Thanks,

Lewis

[fireitup]

You can test vacuum advance by watching the timing mark on the crank pulley w/ a timing light while you tug on the accel cable...

[fireitup]

Taking a step back...

The timing is (as far as I know) set correctly, and I'm using mid-grade (87??) octane gas.

I would check the timing yourself first and make sure it is set correctly.  If the timing is starting off too far advanced, then your vacuum advance will further advance it under high accel loads and lead to detonation...

[Gnarly4X]

I would not be driving that vehicle until I got the pinging stopped! 

Gnarls.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

OK-- I mis-spoke about the timing. It is at 5 degrees btdc, not 0 because I just can't make it idle smoothly at 0* btdc (it shudders violently below about 900 RPM)

Thinking over the symptoms, known history, and surmised history of this pickup, I think I'd better start by rebuilding the carb. It's primary life for years was being towed behind a motorhome, giving the carb lots of chance to get gummed up. Then, just maybe, I can get the timing set right.

I am beginning to wonder if I need an engine rebuild. The orignal owner had the timing set at > 15 degrees btdc and I think it pinged all the time -- at least, it was that way when I bought it from the 2nd owner, and I doubt he changed the timing. Even if 1/4 of the 210,000 miles on the odometer were actual driving miles, it still seems like a LOT of abuse, even for a 22R.

What, exactly, does pinging do to an engine? The most likely damage I can think of would be to the crankshaft bearings. or maybe to the block itself. (-:

[fireitup]

My understanding...

Pinging (aka detonation) is caused by irregular pockets of combustion occurring outside of the nominal flame front in the combustion chamber. These occur due to spark plugs firing at the improper air/fuel mixture. The shockwaves from this can cause "pocking" on the piston head and cylinder bore that frees small bits of metal.  These can cause major wear issues over time as they pass through the oil circulation system prior to being picked up by the oil filter...

Additionally the piston will not be at the ideal position when the combustion chamber reaches max pressure which can cause excess stress on the piston connecting rods.

Not good long term at all...



Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[fireitup]

Also according to my 83 FSM 5DEG BTDC is the recommended timing (with vacuum advance cut)

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[emsvitil]

What happens with premium gas?

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

According to my 85 FSM, correct ignition timing for a 22R is 0* BTDC. 5* makes a lot more sense at to me, though -- especially since it won't hardly run at 0* (though this is confounded by the unknown state of the carb)

I am beginning to get seriously worried about the internal state of my engine. I have to assume that it was subjected to continuous pinging for many thousands of miles before I got it -- I know when I did an oil change just after buying it the oil was jet black.

I cannot get the engine apart to visually inspect the cylinders & pistons. I know it gets decent mileage (18 mpg on a mix of city/highway/dirt road) and that's about it. Oh, and it pings under conditions that don't faze a '93 22RE 2WD one bit. I'm worried if my cylinder walls are too pocked, this engine's life may be quite short. What do all you engine gurus think? Compression check time?

*WHINY MODE ON*
This pickup has been nothing but nasty (and expensive) surprises since I bought it. I inspected it (of course) before handing over the cash, but I missed a few little details that have just got bigger and bigger and bigger. Such as: the HAC output ports broken off and the hoses hanging loose, making all kinds of vacuum leaks. Trying to bleed the brakes, I found someone had jammed a grease zerk into the right rear brake cylinder instead of the fitting that should be there. Needless to say, it twisted off. The radiator has been broken loose on one side from the bracket, I assume by maltreatment. (It sure didn't do it by itself...). The oil pressure light switch was replaced with a sheet metal screw, and the wire left just hanging loose. The horn contact was filed down, who knows why. A broken washer pump (Again, this didn't happen by itself). Broken cowling around the steering column. Front wheel bearings loose (with notable play when jacked up & the tire off)

I don't mind fixing things per se, but I very much mind having to spend megabucks (well, maybe only one kilobuck) fixing other people's mistakes. Simple, avoidable mistakes like setting the ignition timing to 17*btdc and ignoring the resulting racket of pinging, or wrenching a grease zerk into a hole where it was never meant to go

And, of course, my own mistake of not realizing how much pinging I was hearing when I bought it. I only began to get wise after I set the timing better and got a surprise. "Wow!" I thought. "I didn't know an '85 Toyota engine could be so quiet!" (conversation without shouting is now easy in the cab)

*WHINY MODE OFF*

Live 'n' Learn!

*Resigned mode on*

Lewis

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

What happens with premium gas?

I don't know, as I've never tried it. My Dad's '93 22RE 2WD does fine on mid-grade, so I am assuming something is wrong with mine if it cannot do as well. Is this possibly confounded by the lack of fuel injection and/or the fact that a 4WD is more weight for the engine to haul around?

A big THANKS to all you friendly engine gurus here! Every 2 cents of advice you give probably saves me $20, at least.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi Lewis,

Just from your posts, I would get that vehicle checked out by a good Toyota mechanic.

It sounds like you may have multiple issues going on.  At 210,000 miles and the apparent lack of good maintenance by the previous owners, it can be very difficult to accurately diagnose the problem(s) you may be dealing over the internet.

If continually operating at 5,500 feet elevation, and at average colder ambient temperatures, these carburetor engines, even with a properly operating HAC, need to be “tuned” for best performance.

Are you sure that the pinging your are hearing is pre-ignition? Unless you have lots of experience a “pinging” sound in 22R can be several things other than pre-ignition caused by out of adjustment ignition timing.. Like heavily carboned combustion chamber, timing chain slapping against the timing cover, the fuel pump going out, exhaust leak, stuck valve, or valve lash out of adjustment.

Pre-ignition or detonation can do severe damage to these engines in a short time.

Typically, at high elevations, you would want to be running on lower octane fuel - not high octane.

What kind of vehicle is this - 4x4 pickup? What year?  Automatic or stick shift?  How long have you owned it? What have worked on or done to the engine? How many miles on the spark plugs, plug wires, cap and rotor?  What octane gas are you running? Have you removed the rocker cover and checked the timing chain guides, or checked the valve lash?  Have you pulled the spark plugs to see what the look like?  Have you checked all vacuum hoses and verified they are properly connected to the right port?

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

First make sure you get a timing light on there and mess around with your initial timing advance.  If you need to retard it a bit but it won't idle you can open up the primary a bit (idle speed screw), like one extra turn or so and it should idle better.

I recently swapped a 20r head on my 22r and was having trouble with pre-detonation on 87 octane.  I ended up finding 2 different things that helped out.  These are in the range of "micro-tuning", tiny changes that make large differences,

First I swapped to one step colder spark plugs than stock, gapped .004" less than stock gap.  I use autolite 64 normally gapped at .032", then I switched to autolite 63", gapped at .028 and no more pinging.  You wouldn't think it would make any difference but it did.

Then I was messing with my carb and ended up changing out the main jet for one a little richer.  I changed from a 116 je to a 118 jet.  Then it would run just fine with the autolite 64 plugs again on 87 octane 10% ethanol. 

You can use Hitachi jets:  http://www.jetsrus.com/a_jets_by_carburetor_type/jets_hitachi_main_4H7.html

[fireitup]

It sounds like you may have multiple issues going on.  At 210,000 miles and the apparent lack of good maintenance by the previous owners, it can be very difficult to accurately diagnose the problem(s) you may be dealing over the internet.

+1 to that!

You need a good ,thorough tune up not a rebuild.  If you want to do it yourself just follow your FSM general maintenance guidance...

Plugs: pull/replace them and see how they look (try H8PVMNT's idea while youre at it)
Plug Wires: Replace
Distributor Cap/Rotor: Replace

Try to Tune the carb first not rebuild it...

Adjust idle speed/fast idle speed
Check choke system
Replace air filter and make sure intake piping is not blocked

Walk the vacuum/emissions system and make sure there are no leaks and all the EGR components work as intended.

Increased engine temps can also lead to things like detonation so check/flush your cooling system

a “pinging” sound in 22R can be several things other than pre-ignition caused by out of adjustment ignition timing.. Like heavily carboned combustion chamber, timing chain slapping against the timing cover, the fuel pump going out, exhaust leak, stuck valve, or valve lash out of adjustment.

Again +1.  If none of the simple tune up steps fixes the issue then any of these things could be causing issues.  Either have a mechanic take a look or start investigating them yourself.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Are you sure that the pinging your are hearing is pre-ignition? Unless you have lots of experience a “pinging” sound in 22R can be several things other than pre-ignition caused by out of adjustment ignition timing.. Like heavily carboned combustion chamber, timing chain slapping against the timing cover, the fuel pump going out, exhaust leak, stuck valve, or valve lash out of adjustment.

My evidence for pre-ignition:
 - It went from a continuous noise to a much more preventable sound when I changed the timing from 17* btdc to 5*btdc
 - Now, it ONLY appears when the engine is under load (and is hard to prevent, except by revving it up ridiculously fast, say, 3500-4000).

Evidence against pre-ignition:
 - The noies doesn't improve with ethanol-free fuel. If anything, it's worse.
 - There is not much dependance on engine temperature.

Evidence against other things:
 - Timing chain slap, fuel pump, exhaust leak, stuck valve, or valve lash badly adjusted: This noise never appears when the engine is at idle, or when I rev it not under load. Only when climbing hills from a stop.
 - Carboned combustion chamber: The spark plugs replaced about 6mo ago are clean.

Pre-ignition or detonation can do severe damage to these engines in a short time.

I am painfully aware of that right now, thanks, in part, to your timely warnings -- It is just recently that I have begun to think that it may be a problem with the engine rather than my driving style. I have spent several weeks of commuting trying to change everything I can think of about how I drive, with little result. The only thing that stops the pinging is to keep it revved above ~3500 when climing hills from a standstill at the bottom. Climing hills with starting momentum pretty much never pings.

What kind of vehicle is this - 4x4 pickup? What year?  Automatic or stick shift?  How long have you owned it? What have worked on or done to the engine? How many miles on the spark plugs, plug wires, cap and rotor?  What octane gas are you running? Have you removed the rocker cover and checked the timing chain guides, or checked the valve lash?  Have you pulled the spark plugs to see what the look like?  Have you checked all vacuum hoses and verified they are properly connected to the right port?

This is a 1985 4x4 pickup, stick shift. I have owned it for just over 4 months. The previous owner had it for 2 months before that, and the first owner back to '85 (I believe)

Here is a comprehensive list of everything engine-related I have done:
 - Replaced the sheet metal screw with a pressure switch
 - Set idle speed, fast idle speed, and timing.
 - Run some Star-tron through (two tanks of gas) Who knows if this did any good.
 - Changed the engine oil.
 - Removed the broken HAC.
 - Replaced some vacuum hoses and plugged all known vacuum leaks.


 I cannot remove the rocker cover yet -- I don't have the gasket I'd need to put it back. This would also have to be done outside, where there is much blowing grit if it is windy. Not good. Thus, I have to take the timing chain guides and valve lash on faith until I can get a gasket and a non-windy day.

The previous owner replaced the spark plugs and wires. -- maybe 1000 miles on those.

Miles on anything else engine-related is unknown. Most if this vehicle's previous life was being towed everywhere and driven occasionally -- thus the 210,000 miles on the odometer tells nothing about the engine.

Hi Lewis,

Just from your posts, I would get that vehicle checked out by a good Toyota mechanic.

It sounds like you may have multiple issues going on.  At 210,000 miles and the apparent lack of good maintenance by the previous owners, it can be very difficult to accurately diagnose the problem(s) you may be dealing over the internet.

I WISH there were a good Toyota mechanic in town. But I don't know of one. Besides, I feel like I should be learning all this stuff myself rather than paying an expert $60 per hour to fix things for me. Even if this means that I make painful (and sometimes expensive) mistakes.

First make sure you get a timing light on there and mess around with your initial timing advance.  If you need to retard it a bit but it won't idle you can open up the primary a bit (idle speed screw), like one extra turn or so and it should idle better.

Unfortunately, if the timing is at factory 0* btdc, the idle has to be around 1000 RPM before it will run smooth. And I think I should be able to make it run perfectly at factory spec, completely stock, on mid-grade fuel at best or there's something wrong.

[H8PVMNT]

1,000-1,200 rpm is fine with the vac advance hooked up.  FYI 3,500-4,000 rpm up a hill is not revving ridiculously high for a 22r, it's right in the sweet spot.  Not saying you don't have a problem on the ping, just saying it's OK to drive the thing.

I wish I was there I would be all over this thing.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

I can see that you are regretting buying this truck but you have to expect these kinds of things from a 30+ year old vehicle. An 85 Toyota 4x4 is arguably one of the best trucks Toyota sold here.

I go through rounds of regretting ever having touched this thing, and then I remind myself that this is a 32 year old vehicle, and, by the way, 85 xtra-cab Hiluxes don't come around every day. Right now, I am currently in the reminding phase of this cycle.

Ok, you said plugs and wires were installed by previous owner, the guy that didn't change the oil, put screws in lightbulb sockets and used a zerk for a brake bleeder, I doubt he used the right plugs.

The previous owner was not this sadly un-skilled mechanic -- He was the 3rd owner and I am the 4th. The previous owner had this truck for about 2 months and hadn't got much done beyond the ignition system. He bought it from a freind of the original owner, and I don't think this freind did much with it. Thus, I assume that the original owner, who had the truck for maybe 31.5??? years was responsible for much of the ill-done maintenance.

I would start there, get H8PVMNTs recommended plugs or get the Toyota recommended plugs and wires (OEM) with correct gapage. As I recall there was a Toyota carb guru you could send your carb to for rebuild if he is still around.
good luck, keep the truck, and keep us posted

That said, new plugs wouldn't hurt anything except my wallet. And then I'd KNOW what was in there.

There's no way I'm going to sell this truck now, even if I have to rebuild the engine. A solid axle, 4x4, manual transmission Hilux is just about the best possible vehicle for me and anything I bought to replace it with would likely have at least as many problems as this one does. Given that I've already started fixing this one, jumping into something completely new seems downright foolish, even if I could find one. Thus, I will definitely have more questions as time goes on!

Lewis

[H8PVMNT]

By the time you work out all the cobwebs you will be so familiar with everything on your truck you will love it.  You will get on the other end of the learning curve in a few months of suffering . 

[Snowtoy]

Fortunately the issues you are having aren't design related, so once resolved you should be fine. 

Based on the sounds of things mainanance wasn't somethimg the PO sepent much time on, and whern he did, he didn't care about doing it right.  Since you aren't aware of what the service history is, I would start with a good tune-up, plugs and wires, valve adjustment, cap and rotor,timing chain, carb rebuild/fix the HAC or replace with an aftermarket carb.  Once done, you should be able to set the timing correctly w/o advanced and have it run smoothly. 

[Gnarly4X]

... An 85 Toyota 4x4 is arguably one of the best trucks Toyota sold here. They are hard to find in any condition....

Yes... true.

These things are money pits no doubt...

Well... they can be, but early Toyotas are basically easy and inexpensive to maintain.  A well maintained factory stock 1985 22R 4x4 Toyota Standard Cab pickup is arguably the most capable, reliable, and has the lowest cost of ownership per miles driven than anything in its class.

Gnarls.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Well... they can be, but early Toyotas are basically easy and inexpensive to maintain.  A well maintained factory stock 1985 22R 4x4 Toyota Standard Cab pickup is arguably the most capable, reliable, and has the lowest cost of ownership per miles driven than anything in its class.

Maybe... I've probably put $400-500 into this thing over several repairs (minor and less minor), and the fixing, tweaking, and tuning is maybe half done. How does this compare to other vehicles in this class? I've only ever been around Toyotas, so I have nothing to compare against.

Lewis

[Snowtoy]

Maybe... I've probably put $400-500 into this thing over several repairs (minor and less minor), and the fixing, tweaking, and tuning is maybe half done. How does this compare to other vehicles in this class? I've only ever been around Toyotas, so I have nothing to compare against.

Lewis

Not that many of their Japanese or domestic counterparts are still on the road after 30yrs to compare them to, even when purposely abused these are hard trucks to kill. 

Outside of an engine rebuild, most of the ones I have restored over the last 12yrs haven't taken much more than what you have spent to make them mechanically reliable.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Getting back to engine tech, how likely is it that a past history of abuse has taken most of the remaining life out of my engine? How would I know?

Thanks,


Lewis

[Snowtoy]

Not that likely, depending on what is the cause if the "ping" you are experiencing.  These are pretty durable engines, not maintaining one and still having it run like a top was kind of what made them legendary.  Once you have the timing set correctly, a compression test /leak down test will tell you the condition of the engine, a bore scope would allow you to take a look at the cylinder wall and heads to see if the pinging has caused any damage.  If you don't hear any "clack" when running or "knock" on cold start up, the bottom end is likely good.

[emsvitil]

Check for vacuum leaks.............

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Are you sure that the pinging your are hearing is pre-ignition? Unless you have lots of experience a “pinging” sound in 22R can be several things other than pre-ignition caused by out of adjustment ignition timing.. Like heavily carboned combustion chamber, timing chain slapping against the timing cover, the fuel pump going out, exhaust leak, stuck valve, or valve lash out of adjustment.

Bingo! Some people who listened to my engine decided it wasn't a ping. I let it alone for a while until the vehicle developed an extremely audible and obnoxious exhaust leak. Turns out, the exhaust pipe to manifold union was loose, and had been for a while. Only one finger-loose nut was left holding it together.

Fixing this and replacing a missing bolt on the exhaust manifold cover seems to have fixed the problem. As a bonus, it's now quieter than I ever thought it could be.

[Gnarly4X]

Bingo! .. Fixing this and replacing a missing bolt on the exhaust manifold cover seems to have fixed the problem. As a bonus, it's now quieter than I ever thought it could be.

Hey Lewis... glad to read your ping was not serious and easily fixed. 

Did you use a generous amount of anti-seize compound on the threads of the studs? 

Gnarls.... how stinkless can I go? 

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Anti-seize is still waiting -- I thought it was a blown exhaust manifold gasket, so I took it apart and then discovered the loose union. I really needed the truck for field work right about then, so I quickly got it all put together and tightened to see what happened. Noises went away, so I went away to the field.

After a hectic couple of days, I'm only just ready to even think about finishing the job.

Lewis

[kneedownnate]

Hey Lewis... glad to read your ping was not serious and easily fixed. 

Did you use a generous amount of anti-seize compound on the threads of the studs? 

Gnarls.... how stinkless can I go? 

This is a damn good start and a more normal reply.

[Gnarly4X]

This is a damn good start and a more normal reply.

Well… thank you kneedownnate, I appreciate your mentorship.  With the help of sincerely generous people like squash and H8PVMNT, I’m aspiring to becoming the epitome of forum decorum, just like you. 

I admit, perhaps wrongly, I've always tended to avoid becoming "more normal". 

Gnarls. ... limiting any pomp.