The Turtcel build (turtle+tercel)

[helipilot77]

Waiting for the wheelin pics

So true! I need to take this thing wheelin'.

[Prismo]

Have a gray rear parcel tray or air conditioning parts?

I don't have an extra rear "trunk" cover, I guess parcel tray works better. You could use my existing one to make a template to make your own if you wanted. I may have one when I drag Tercel #3 home next month. What A/C parts do you need?
I took my 83 lots of places I shouldn't before I bought the 4runner. The clutch didn't seem stout enough, it would slip on steep hill climbs in el gear.

[helipilot77]

I think I need all the A/C stuff. But not 100% sure. That would be great if I could use your cover as a template. Cool.

[redneckcustoms13]

This thing would be cool with a 3rz, sas, and 4 link...

[LittleSteve]

This thing would be cool with a 3rz, sas, and 4 link...

Thus making it a 4runner ish

[redneckcustoms13]

Better than a turdcel lol

[BUDDERS]

I want to see what this thing turns into!

[helipilot77]

I called Lynnwood foreign engines yesterday, and they can get a 4A-GE 20 valve blacktop with everything I need and a transmission that I don't need for $1200

[redneckcustoms13]

That thing will be rather peppy with 150hp. Do you plan on this soon?

[helipilot77]

I will get started on the motor swap as soon as my diesel is back together and running to my satisfaction.

[Rockcrawlintoy]

I will get started on the motor swap as soon as my diesel is back together and running to my satisfaction.

Speaking of diesel? Any updates

[helipilot77]

Speaking of diesel? Any updates

Steve shipped the Pistons and whatnot on Friday. So right now there is a man in a brown outfit with his sole purpose to bring my parts to me.

[Prismo]

I have no A/C parts right now. I may have some next month when I tow car #3 home. I did find a power steering rack & an inclinometer.

[helipilot77]

I have no A/C parts right now. I may have some next month when I tow car #3 home. I did find a power steering rack & an inclinometer.

I made it out to the wrecking yard this weekend and scrounged up some fun parts. There was an 84' with a grey interior that had been picked pretty clean. I got a steering wheel from it cause mine is disentigrating. They also had an 86' car that was pretty fully loaded and had only been there for 3 days. From it I got the entire A/C system minus the compressor, a rear wiper assembly, a cruise control unit and switch with delay wiper switch (I'll need to find a control unit from a manual transmission car) and I also got the sunroof out of it. So I have some fun projects ahead of me.

My car already has the inclinometer and power steering. Thanks though Prismo! 

The 84' still had the transmission in it so I my pull it for a spare. They are getting hard to find.

[BigMike]

Now this is a cool build. Love seeing something different like this here on our forum. Makes me want to mirror my MR2's build thread here.

While I don't have any direct experience with the 20-valve, the 4A-G(Z)E is my favorite Toyota engine (mainly because I have the most experience with them compared to other engines). The closest experience I have is using the Silver Top quad throttle bodies on a USDM redtop 4A-GE (pics and info on my custom manifold here):



Check out my license plate This was back in 2003/2004.



A few things to consider are that while the Silver and Black Tops are rated at 160 and 165, these are PS & not HP. Nevertheless RWD AE86 guys are getting a minimum 130 HP at the wheels which is really great when you consider the USDM 16-valve variable induction system version (T-VIS) we got stuck with is only rated for 116 HP at the crank. I'd highly recommend a Black Top because it does not run an air box and can be ran without an intake similar to the setup I had in my MR2. It provides a lot of flexibility in trumpet / air ram runner lengths and also different air filter setups which would be a major plus for you in terms of tuning, ie. longer runners for better low speed torque.

Torque.... As the engine is based on R&D from the Formula Atlantic series, it is designed for high rev (700 RPM higher @ 8,300 RPM redline) with a more narrow power band (torque doesn't start to build until after 5,000 RPM which is 500 RPM higher than the USDM; power peaks at 7,800 RPM or 1,200 RPM higher than the 16-valve). Aftermarket parts are designed for high revs + narrow band and most run them in front of a 6-speed (native to the C160). Looks like this won't be an option for you if you stay AWD. That's a major bummer.

MANNNN I am excited to see if you get a 20-valve. LOVE that engine. Best sounding 4cyl I've ever heard. LittleSteve mentioned VVTi, and while it's only VVT, I believe it is the first engine Toyota ever built with VVT technology. People are swapping the 20-valve quad throttle body intakes onto 1UZ-FE 8cyls and they sound a-m-a-z-i-n-g too. I have a friend in S.F. who runs a Black Top in his 1986 MR2 with a 6spd (C160 with LSD, also he is a driving instructor). Here is a recent video of him at Sonoma Raceway:

I _love_ my 1.6-liter 4A-GZE which has nearly 100 lb-ft more torque than his 1.6-liter Black Top 20-valve, but I've always said if I ever build another track car it will be N/A. I just love that sound! I could build a 1.8-liter 2ZZ-GE... but there is just something about the 4A that keeps calling me back again and again.

Of course there are fewwwww better than the Hasselgren, which I believe was the lead design behind the Formula Atlantic engines: http://hasselgren.com/category/racing-engines/toyota/ & http://hasselgren.com/toyota-4ag-4age/ I mean look at this. They are now making a 1.9-liter stroked Formula Atlantic 20-valve.



Based on a Black Top 20-valve. Stroked to 1.9 liter. 266 HP at the wheels. 10,200 RPM redline. Let's assume this is close to 300 HP at the crank and you've got a 158 HP/liter. What's more is that my AE86 friend also from S.F. knows the owner and showed me this article.... AMAZING: http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/1603-1986-toyota-corolla-gt-s-with-a-formula-atlantic-motor/?sm_id=social_aumosuperstreetonlinesshub_default_20160324_59736706&adbid=10154741725872907&adbpl=f

The article also covers the original 1.6-liter Formula Atlantic 20-valve 4A-GE engines. 1.6-liter, 250 HP, 11,000 RPM.



That is 157.53 HP/liter out of a tiny 1587cc engine. WOW. According to the article the stroked 1.9-liter above is making 180 lb-ft torque at the wheels, which might be what, 210 TQ at the crank? If so, consider these ratios with a 3RZ. That would be a 426 HP and 298 TQ N/A 3RZ-FE. Or how about an 8.4 liter Dodge Viper. That would be 1,326 HP / 928 TQ. That is how impressive those lil Formula Atlantic engines were.



Check it out man, there's your 20-valve! Carbureted even



Every time I've gone to the Toyota MEGAWEB in Odaiba, Japan they have had at least one on display, such as this from a 2013 trip:





Check it out, "4A-GE", and part following that, "5バルブバージョン" means "5 valve version".





Here is my all-time favorite video of the 20-valve. Two of them defeating a much more powerful but also much more heavy R34 Skyline at Nihonkai Maze Circuit in Japan

The first 2 mins are so strange so just skip them Love the downshifting sounds, such as at 6:40.

Ohhhh man now I want to go drive my MR2!! Looking forward to seeing this Tercel get built

edit: Fixed some numbers
edit 2: I posted the WRONG video above so I fixed it Muuuuch better!

[BigMike]

Found another This is with a Black Top

[BigMike]

Nate-

Awesome chatting with ya today. Definitely gonna be watching this build thread

When I got off the phone I was like, "ohh man I'm gonna listen to that sweet 20-valve again"...

Love the downshifting sounds, such as at 6:40.

But when I hit Play and went to skip to the 6:40 mark, I realized I posted the WRONG video! This is a STUPID edited version with some music dubbed over it. So I edited my post above which is the original version, much much better! Now I'm gonna go listen to it around the 6:40min mark

[zippo]

Nate-

Awesome chatting with ya today. Definitely gonna be watching this build thread

When I got off the phone I was like, "ohh man I'm gonna listen to that sweet 20-valve again"...

But when I hit Play and went to skip to the 6:40 mark, I realized I posted the WRONG video! This is a STUPID edited version with some music dubbed over it. So I edited my post above which is the original version, much much better! Now I'm gonna go listen to it around the 6:40min mark

I know its not a Toyota, But here a engine that always gets me going. 1975 Cosworth Vega twin 45mm DCOE webers - 8k rpm? Me and My dad have been building them for as long as I can remember.

[BigMike]

I'm looking all around for videos of my 20-valve intake-powered 4A-GE in my MR2 and can't find them. Here is a teaser clip of my GZE last Dec at Laguna Seca. This was before I began learning about timing control on the e-Manage and also before I stepped back up to a larger SC14 Supercharger. It is making a lot more power right now, especially on the bottom end.

Love the 4A! Gotta get back to the track. The black SW20 is my buddies N/A 5S-FE that he turbocharged. So I'm hanging with his turbo 2.2-liter.

The 6-speed I'm running is C60 guts from a 2ZZ-GE powered XRS Corolla installed into AE89 Corolla C56 housings and then modified for a mid-engine shift rod configuration. This C60 is identical to the ZZT230 Celica and Lotus Elise/Exige gears 1-5 but 6th gear is taller and better for highway cruising (why I chose it). The flat and wide torque band of the GZE combined with the short ratio 6 speed is amazing.

As for your transmission concerns, I don't know if this is of much help, but I'm pushing close to 200 TQ (dynoed @ 173 lb-ft torque at the whees) through this C60 which was only intended for the 1.8-liter 2ZZ-GE @ 130 TQ or about 54% more torque. Another analogy could be the Exige Cup 260, which is a high PSI version of the 1.8-liter S/C 2ZZ-GE, yes outputting close to 260 HP but the dang thing is only making 174 TQ at the crank. So.... my MR2 has more weight and more torque than the Exige so I'm more likely to blow up my C60 then it.

When I had the guts out the C60 was pretty much the same size as C52/C56 parts which was the original transaxle for the 16-valve 4A-GE. (The S/C 4A-GZE used a transaxle from a V6 CAMRY!!!!) So if Toyota did their usual over engineering then your trans might just work.

I think the weight advantage you have will play big dividends. I say run the Tercel's stock trans and see how it does! It does suck that they are scarce and people want an arm and a leg for a spare...

Regards,
BigMike

[BigMike]

We need some more! Is there a longer video of this? Sounds awesome



edit: I just realized smiley BBC codes are not being parsed after a YouTube video is inserted.... Interesting...............................

[zippo]

We need some more! Is there a longer video of this? Sounds awesome



edit: I just realized smiley BBC codes are not being parsed after a YouTube video is inserted.... Interesting...............................

I have a bunch of pics. But no longer videos. Its on of those things when we are driving around in it, we just enjoy it and never remember to take video. My dad bought it in 1975 and is the second owner. Only has 50k miles on it. The motor is heavly modded.

[helipilot77]

Thanks for the advice Mike. I think you are right on the transmission. Even though I hate all the rules that California has about smog, I wouldn't mind having Laguna Seca in my back yard. That is the ultimate track. It had to be surreal to crank through the corkscrew the first few times.

I am definitely decided on the 4A-ge 20 valve blacktop after that last YouTube video you posted. That thing sounds incredible!!!

[Rockcrawlintoy]

Thanks for the advice Mike. I think you are right on the transmission. Even though I hate all the rules that California has about smog, I wouldn't mind having Laguna add a in my back yard. That is the ultimate track. It had to be surreal to crank through the corkscrew the first few times

You just got to live in a non smog area

[BigMike]

I am definitely decided on the 4A-ge 20 valve blacktop after that last YouTube video you posted. That thing sounds incredible!!!

I watched the beginning credits again and noticed they are using the "Freedom ECU" I was telling you about. I took a screen shot and translated it (we'll not the English "Freedom ECU" ). See attached below. The Silver Top came in the AE101 Corolla and the Black Top came in the AE111

Not sure what the "IMAGE SuperSport" is. I searched online and it might be a big brake upgrade kit. Stock bore is 81mm so this engine has been bored out 40-thousandths.

Here is the official website for the Freedom ECU: http://www.e-freedom.co.jp/FREEDOM.HTM I tried translating it in Google and the page encoding is incorrect. So I used a Firefox extension and converted it into a PDF file: http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/files/Freedom-ECU-translated.pdf I'm certainly NOT saying you need this ECU. It's just that a bunch of the 20 valve guys who do a lot of tuning and want full stand alone go this route because the Freedom is 100% compatible with all stock 20 valve sensors and plugs directly into the stock ECU harness. But.... I'm sure if you can find one then it's gonna cost an arm and a leg! According to the website, new they go for a grand to $1,200. (Always remember to move the decimal spot two places with Japanese Yen 円 for a close approximation. Yen is typically equivalent to a US penny. For example it is currently 1 penny = 1.0859 yen so pretty close and an easy way to approximate Japanese prices.)

(Side note: I've always wondered why we even have a dollar. If we valued everything in pennies then our currency/prices would look very similar to the Japanese. If this is a strange question then why hasn't the Japanese made a new "super yen" which is equivalent to 100 yen, just as we made for the lack of a better word a "super penny" equal to 100 pennies which we call a dollar.)

Regards
BigMike

[helipilot77]

A few things to consider are that while the Silver and Black Tops are rated at 160 and 165, these are PS & not HP. Nevertheless RWD AE86 guys are getting a minimum 130 HP at the wheels which is really great when you consider the USDM 16-valve variable induction system version (T-VIS) we got stuck with is only rated for 116 HP at the crank. I'd highly recommend a Black Top because it does not run an air box and can be ran without an intake similar to the setup I had in my MR2. It provides a lot of flexibility in trumpet / air ram runner lengths and also different air filter setups which would be a major plus for you in terms of tuning, ie. longer runners for better low speed torque

So Mike correct me if I'm wrong but to my calculations 165 PS is 121 KW or 162.264 HP? I found that the C160 6 speed came with the blacktop in ae111 only in 97' and 98' the last two years of production. I got my shifter bushings today and it looks like they are going to work.  it turned out to be the shifter seat for the t-case shifter, and the shift socket bushing for the L-43 side shift.

[H8PVMNT]

Samokee flipin' bur-nout!

You need to make the thing handle too, then it would be a super-sleeper.

[Forfunner]

Just out of curiosity. What rear end does it have? Is it a 8"?

[helipilot77]

Just out of curiosity. What rear end does it have? Is it a 8"?

No I think it's like 6.5" out of a Corolla.

[helipilot77]

Alright! So last night the Tercel got its first pieces of marlin crawler parts installed. It turns out that the shifter seat for the rf-1a transfer case forward shift is a perfect fit for the tercel.

The shifter now feels tight and precise and I can tell what gear I'm going into.

Also the brake master cylinder was leaking so we upgraded to a MR2 booster and master cylinder.

[Prismo]

Good info on the shifter seat. The rear end on my 90 4runner is basically a larger copy of this tercel rear. Always thought that was kind of amusing. The way the coils & 4 link is set up looks nearly identical.