Topic: NEW GUY FROM UTAH POWAH!

[chim]

it is an eternal ordinance of God that God restored in the time it was needed. In that time there were hundreds of widow's without any means of supporting themselves due to the fact that their husbands were killed by persecutes of the church. Just like back in the old testament, when polygamy was practiced then, there is a time and a place for every law of God... yes, it is still in the doctrine and Covenants, but it is not practiced by our church now. In the old testament it was a divine law of God for the Jews, but now it's no longer practiced by them either... Any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that is practicing this law today is in direct opposition to the Church and the commandments of God, and is not endorsed by the Church in anyway or form!!! The law of sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins is also in the old testament and still in the scriptures, does that mean that every Christian still practices it? nope... now let me step off my soap box...

I don't think you understand the bible very well.. in fact from your answers it sounds like you are just giving the same cookie cutter answers that you were told to justify something false... I used to think the same thing till I actually looked into it.

First off... the history of the church would show that men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and many many others were using polygamy to satisfy their personal lusts.. its not that men were being killed and persecuted.. in fact Joseph smith would send men away on "missions" so that he could have access to their wives... I know it sucks to hear that but you need to not rely on just the churches perspective on history.
As for polygamy in the old testament.. it was never condoned... meaning God never endorsed it.. it was man that did it.. and if you look at the situations where it happened it caused problems and troubles... So to say it was a divine law of the jews is a totally false and ignorant statement that cannot be supported in the Bible.
As for polygamy in mormonism.. section 132 calls it an everlasting covenant and that if you don't follow it you are damned! So who is more right.. the people following it now or the people who say its not for this time... Why does God change his mind so much in mormonism?
Again, if you actually knew your Bible you would see that there is a clear reason that there is no sacrificing of animals... the sacrificing of animals was for the covering of sin in the old testament... Jesus came and made the ultimate sacrifice covering all sin therefor there is no longer any need for animal sacrifices... look it up.. that's what Christianity is all about 

Stand on the Rock that is Jesus Christ... not a soapbox.. that soapbox is just going to fold underneath you dude

[Mega Baby Huey [OP]]

lol...

"Stand on the Rock that is Jesus Christ... not a soapbox.. that soapbox is just going to fold underneath you dude"

I'm pretty sure that's a fat joke!!!!

thanks for your "help" but i'm more than happy with my religion. we're not getting anywhere arguing about it. I'm not gonna change your mind, and you're not gonna change mine. science or history will never prove or disprove ANY religion, mine included.he only reason i'm a Mormon is because i prayed to know if it was true. It's not because of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young said so, or my Bishop, or anyone else... It's because I received my answer from the source. What better way to know if somethings from God than to pray? I received my answer, just as anyone can. This church has blessed me and my family in ways i couldn't have begun to imagined 6 years ago when i joined, and I have Jesus Christ to thank for that. Despite what a lot of people say, we are in fact Christians. We believe in Jesus, and know that it's only through Him that we can receive forgiveness for our sins. So if you wanna believe what you read on websites and in books who's only purpose is to slam our church, thats fine! but to me, the only answers to religious questions come from God himself...

[chim]

lol...

"Stand on the Rock that is Jesus Christ... not a soapbox.. that soapbox is just going to fold underneath you dude"

I'm pretty sure that's a fat joke!!!!

thanks for your "help" but i'm more than happy with my religion. we're not getting anywhere arguing about it. I'm not gonna change your mind, and you're not gonna change mine. science or history will never prove or disprove ANY religion, mine included.he only reason i'm a Mormon is because i prayed to know if it was true. It's not because of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young said so, or my Bishop, or anyone else... It's because I received my answer from the source. What better way to know if somethings from God than to pray? I received my answer, just as anyone can. This church has blessed me and my family in ways i couldn't have begun to imagined 6 years ago when i joined, and I have Jesus Christ to thank for that. Despite what a lot of people say, we are in fact Christians. We believe in Jesus, and know that it's only through Him that we can receive forgiveness for our sins. So if you wanna believe what you read on websites and in books who's only purpose is to slam our church, thats fine! but to me, the only answers to religious questions come from God himself...

I know you prayed about it to see if it was true... but I prayed about it as well and God told me it was false... why would God give us two completely different answers? Is it because the god of mormonism is a different God of the Bible?

The Bible says to love the Lord with all your heart, soul and don't pass this one up.. your MIND. It should make sense! Science and history prove the Bible right all the time! and that's a big deal!

And I'm not arguing about it at all.. I'm just saying.. I used to say the same things that you do when I was a mormon.. I was told to stay away from websites and books that were against the church.. but what do you do when the churches own writings and speakings of the prophets are in direct opposition to Christianity?

Just because you use the name of Jesus doesn't mean you are christian.. you may have christian qualities but that doesn't make a true christian... look at Jesus Christ for instance.. in the mormon church you believe that he is "a" god, but not "God" in the flesh... you say he was married to multiple women and had children... you say he is the spirit brother of lucifer and so are we... you say his dieing on the cross didn't cover all sins..  sorry but all those points are major points and very far from the Jesus of the Bible...

Are you willing to put your eternal salvation in the hopes that Joseph Smith was right? Because if you are right and I am wrong then all that will happen to me is that I will go to a lesser kingdom of heaven.. but if I am right and you are wrong.. you're going to hell..  I wouldn't want to mess around with that...

[Mega Baby Huey [OP]]

 

Just because you use the name of Jesus doesn't mean you are christian.. you may have christian qualities but that doesn't make a true christian... look at Jesus Christ for instance.. in the mormon church you believe that he is "a" god, but not "God" in the flesh... you say he was married to multiple women and had children... you say he is the spirit brother of lucifer and so are we... you say his dieing on the cross didn't cover all sins..  sorry but all those points are major points and very far from the Jesus of the Bible...

ok... this is the last post i'm making here. we're getting no where here...

 you say you were a Mormon before, but this bit of your post makes it clear that you didn't understand Mormon doctrine. We believe Jesus is a God. no if's, and's, or but's. We believe he and God are two different beings, with ONE purpose. not ONE being... just like when Jesus tells the Apostles that they should be one with Jesus just like Jesus and God are one (John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.). does he mean that the apostles and Jesus are to become one being? no. And yes, his atonement covered all sins, but we are not free from all obligation! When he suffered on the cross, and in the garden of Gethsemane it was for every persons sins. however, we have to try to follow his example and continually improve ourselves. we can't just say "Jesus Forgive Me!!!!" and do whatever we want. some effort on our part is required... and no where in Mormon Doctrine will you find anything about Jesus being married (ESPECIALLY to multiple Women!!!!) or having children!!!! maybe he was married maybe he wasn't... the Bible doesn't say anything about it and neither do we!!!  and again, i'm not trusting my soul to Joseph Smith... I'm trusting it to God!

[axled89]

 

[chim]

ok... this is the last post i'm making here. we're getting no where here...

 you say you were a Mormon before, but this bit of your post makes it clear that you didn't understand Mormon doctrine. We believe Jesus is a God. no if's, and's, or but's. We believe he and God are two different beings, with ONE purpose. not ONE being... just like when Jesus tells the Apostles that they should be one with Jesus just like Jesus and God are one (John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.). does he mean that the apostles and Jesus are to become one being? no. And yes, his atonement covered all sins, but we are not free from all obligation! When he suffered on the cross, and in the garden of Gethsemane it was for every persons sins. however, we have to try to follow his example and continually improve ourselves. we can't just say "Jesus Forgive Me!!!!" and do whatever we want. some effort on our part is required... and no where in Mormon Doctrine will you find anything about Jesus being married (ESPECIALLY to multiple Women!!!!) or having children!!!! maybe he was married maybe he wasn't... the Bible doesn't say anything about it and neither do we!!!  and again, i'm not trusting my soul to Joseph Smith... I'm trusting it to God!

I'm trying to get you to see some truth.. but if you cant even look at it with the willingness that the mormon missionaries hope to receive when they talk to people then you are right.. we are getting no where. I'm just asking for the same courtesy that you gave missionaries when they discussed their beliefs with you before you converted to the mormon church.

For the record you cant say I didn't understand mormon doctrine.. I in fact understood it very well and even better now having studied it extensively and having taught on the differences between mormonism and Christianity every year for several years... I held mormon teaching callings and was a temple mormon, which meant that in the mormon church I was in a small percentage of faithful followers that most mormons don't or cant attain to. If you don't believe me I can show you the secret temple robes and aprons and handshakes and secret words that mormons believe need to be said and done as passage to the highest level of heaven(did you even know about that?) AND I was a mormon for longer than you.. so for you to say I didn't understand it is only something you are saying to make yourself feel more at ease with my decision to leave a false religion that you still cling to. Because it makes mormons very uncomfortable to talk to people who have left the church for Christianity.

For the record, the Bible doesn't teach one in "purpose".. that's something the mormon church made up.. and interestingly enough you will find christian teachings of the trinity in the book of mormon. So the mormon church has inconstancy in its own scripture concerning who Jesus Christ really is.

I'm not sure you understand the doctrine of grace... a true repenting and believing individual CAN just say Jesus forgive me and be forgiven.. but if he is truly born again.. his life will change and he will not want to continue in sin...

No where in mormon doctrine... how about this: Apostle Orson Hyde wrote, “Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana and Galilee” (J of D Vol. 2, page 82)
Apostle Orson Pratt wrote, “If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women (Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene) were his wives.” (The Seer page 159)
Orson Hyde states, “Before the Savior died, He looked upon His own natural children, as we look upon ours.” (J of D, Vol 2 page 82)

I'm not trying to argue.. just trying to get you to think. Are you married.. do you have kids?

I don't want you to think I'm angry or wanting to cause problems... just from my point of view I have yet to meet a mormon who is willing to stand up for what they believe and give reasonable answers from the Bible pertaining to mormon doctrine... they usually just act like they are being persecuted and get flustered and cease all communication.. I hope you don't fall into that mold.

[Mega Baby Huey [OP]]

thanks for your concern... i guess you'd call me a "temple mormon", because i regularly attend... but "temple mormons" are not some exclusive group within the church... a majority of mormon's are temple goers. and since my conversion i have gone on a mission for the church, so don't assume you know about my church than me... I'm not some ignoramus who rushed into the first religion i could find. and if you think i made a two year commitment like a mission without thinking about it then your sadly mistaken. i've talked to hundreds of ex-mormons or anti-mormons on my mission who have all quoted and said the same things you and i have been arguing about... everything you've brought up i've heard before, and none of it is new...

ex-Mormon or not, it makes no difference. Talking to ex-mormons doesn't make me uncomfortable, anyone who approaches me and attacks my belief in God without even knowing me makes me uncomfortable... you have your religion and i have mine, you don't see me coming after your church and trying to use any negative thing about it i could find to convert you. i appreciate your concern for me, but i know what i'm doing, and have seen the hand of the Lord in my life, and i know the church is true.  if you have any doctrinal questions as to what we believe i'd be more than happy to answer them... but i believe in my religion and i'm not planning on changing that anytime soon! thanks again...

[chim]

thanks for your concern... i guess you'd call me a "temple mormon", because i regularly attend... but "temple mormons" are not some exclusive group within the church... a majority of mormon's are temple goers. and since my conversion i have gone on a mission for the church, so don't assume you know about my church than me... I'm not some ignoramus who rushed into the first religion i could find. and if you think i made a two year commitment like a mission without thinking about it then your sadly mistaken. i've talked to hundreds of ex-mormons or anti-mormons on my mission who have all quoted and said the same things you and i have been arguing about... everything you've brought up i've heard before, and none of it is new...

ex-Mormon or not, it makes no difference. Talking to ex-mormons doesn't make me uncomfortable, anyone who approaches me and attacks my belief in God without even knowing me makes me uncomfortable... you have your religion and i have mine, you don't see me coming after your church and trying to use any negative thing about it i could find to convert you. i appreciate your concern for me, but i know what i'm doing, and have seen the hand of the Lord in my life, and i know the church is true.  if you have any doctrinal questions as to what we believe i'd be more than happy to answer them... but i believe in my religion and i'm not planning on changing that anytime soon! thanks again...

Defensive! If I didn't care about you or any other mormon then why would I try and show you the truth? What does it benefit me???

But you said something that I have yet to see any mormon stand behind.. you said you have heard it all before and its nothing new... well I have heard so many mormons, especially missionaries say the same thing.. yet not one has backed up anything..  hearing someone bring it up doesn't address the issues... have you actually sat down.. checked the Bible and looked into anything anyone has said about your church?
If someone told me I was wrong in what I believe I would want them to show me.. I have nothing to worry about, and if I am in possible error in what I'm relying on for salvation I would definitely want to see where and make sure I had it together!

And by the way... the percentage of temple mormons verses the everyday mormon who attends church is a wide spread.. when I was in the church it was something like only 10% were temple mormons.. so don't play it off for internet sake..

Let me ask you a question... when you were a missionary did you tell prospective converts that in order to get to the highest level of heaven where God the Father is that they would have to learn hand signs and tokens to give through a veil to God in order to be allowed into heaven? And that these handshakes were a direct copy from freemasonry which is a non-christian cult that existed well before mormonism? And what verses in the Bible would you use to back this up... what verses in the book of mormon would you use to back this up...

Lets address doctrine and not make this personal.. somehow the vital info gets overlooked in order to make it into something personal.. and I would rather stick to the info

[Mega Baby Huey [OP]]

any time you talk about someones

Lets address doctrine and not make this personal.. somehow the vital info gets overlooked in order to make it into something personal.. and I would rather stick to the info

my religion to me is all personal! if you put down my religious beliefs, you put me down with it. religion IS personal... thats why you can believe what you want and i can believe what i want!!!! and yes, i have compared the churches teachings with the bible and found that they fit hand in hand. maybe you interpret the scriptures differently, but i have yet to find any verse of scripture that says Mormons are wrong... soon as you find one you let me know!

[chim]

Did Jesus make his beliefs personal??? Did he frown away from talking about it or debating it in the synagogues? Its only personal to you when you are confronted with hard truths and things you can not answer... so is there a verse that says mormonism is wrong... yes there is... Here it is:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8     But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This is what Moroni did.. came and told Joseph smith where to find plates that taught a another gospel than what has been taught.

But as I suspected you would do, you didn't address any doctrine.. you made it personal.. and I'm glad its on record here.

I want to leave you with this... what I do is put up a defense for the Christian faith because right out of the gate mormonism attacked Christianity.

From the book of mormon for those reading:
1 Nephi 14:10 -   10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the sleeper of all the earth

 

[Mega Baby Huey [OP]]

lol... ok dude, whatever... if you wanna stick to doctrine then do it! leave out your prejudice opinions like this: "First off... the history of the church would show that men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and many many others were using polygamy to satisfy their personal lusts.. its not that men were being killed and persecuted.. in fact Joseph smith would send men away on "missions" so that he could have access to their wives... I know it sucks to hear that but you need to not rely on just the churches perspective on history." that my friend is 100% grade A opinion... stick to doctrine and i'll explain it...

and yes Jesus made his beliefs personal... he himself said they were the most important things ever to be taught. why wouldn't it be personal? maybe our definitions of personal are different because when i said personnel i mean something close to me, or of great importance. I'm not saying that i'm taking offense to anything you say that is contradictory to my beliefs... but i'm not going to come down and start attacking your religion like you are to mine.

as i said everything comes down to your interpretation. i conciser the gospel of Jesus Christ to be all the teachings of Jesus Christ, even from the Book of Mormon. If it's the teachings of Christ, then it's part of the Gospel. so that scripture proves it more to me. i personally love that scripture! To me, the Book of Mormon is the same gospel that's preached in the Bible.

and that scripture in the Book of Mormon isn't referring to any church in particular, and especially not Christianity (since i conciser myself a Christian)... it's referring to any organization that leads people to sin. and any church that teaches about Christ, and brings them closer to God is the Church of God!!!! So unless your church is teaching people that Satan is good or something, then it's not Satan's church... Mormon's don't hate any other religion. if you find a religion that you're happy with GREAT!!!! that's why God gave us the right to choose in this great nation!

[chim]

I will address each point as an example to you because you like to pick and choose what you respond to in my posts:

1. History from hand written journals, public records, eye witness testimony can not be simply dismissed as "opinion". Like I said before... try looking at resources outside your church, since a lot of the info is withheld from the church body. Do what the Bible says..."Test all things and hold fast to what is good." So I would encourage that, and yes.. Im all for sticking to doctrine so please explain the earlier questions about temple work that I specifically asked.

2. I agree with your definition of personal now.. when you first mentioned that term in the context you were using it was reading as if you were saying they are personal to me and I don't have to discuss them or debate them with you or anyone else. But I'm not "attacking" your beliefs... Im trying to get you to see that Your church first attacked Christianity and now you are trying to say you are christian when your church teaches many doctrines contrary to Christianity. If you want you can pm me for my notes on why mormons are not christian and you can evaluate them for yourself. Or if anyone else wants them I will gladly give them or even post them here.

3. Are you saying that there is not a way we can all interpret the scriptures plainly without coming to different conclusions? And that the writers of the different books were not clear enough in context to convey what they were trying to say? Its really a cop out to say well you are just interpreting it differently than I do... maybe you could explain how instead of just using a blanket statement. Of course you think its all the same gospel preached throughout the different canons of your scripture.. because it has been taught to you in a way that has been taken out of context to make it fit with what your church teaches. Again.. where is the temple work preached in the bible.. or even the book of mormon?

4. That scripture is very clear who is is speaking about... there are TWO churches... there is the church of the lamb (the mormon church).. then whoever who doesn't belong to that church (the mormon church) belongs to the great abominable church, the church of the devil.. the sleeper of all the earth...  according to that verse.. its one or the other.. who here would disagree?? Its pretty plain in the context... do you want another similar example from your church on this subject?

note: If you don't feel I have properly addressed anything you have asked or mentioned let me know.. i want to make sure I leave nothing out.. I would ask that you would do that same instead of picking and choosing what you want to address and what you don't.

[JanMarie13]

   This is why people should never discuss politics or religion in a public forum.  I mean, I guess it's fine if that's what your intention is.  Perhaps there are religion forums out there where people enjoy debating who gets into Heaven and who doesn't (although according to South Park it indeed is the Mormons). 

Hey guys... who cares who's mormon... shut up and wheel. 

Amen, dude.  Although really.....when you join a forum under the name "Mega Mormon" you pretty much beg a conversation about religion, even though your first post said you didn't want to hear it.  That would be like someone joining under the name AbortionLover and expecting people to keep their opinions to themselves. 

It's a 4x4 forum, geared mainly toward Toyotas.  That's pretty much what people expect to see when they come here, unless it's in Chit Chat Camp (where there are actually several threads about religion).

That being said, to Marlin (a few years late!)   

[Mega Baby Huey [OP]]

thanks again, and your right... but i'm not here for religion conversations... i'm here for off roading. chim, if you want to continue the discussion i'd be more than happy to answer any questions you want somewhere else. maybe in email or a message or whatever... but this forum is for off-roading and i'd like to keep it that way...

[chim]

thanks again, and your right... but i'm not here for religion conversations... i'm here for off roading. chim, if you want to continue the discussion i'd be more than happy to answer any questions you want somewhere else. maybe in email or a message or whatever... but this forum is for off-roading and i'd like to keep it that way...

As soon as I saw MPA's response I knew you would respond to that accordingly.. frustrating.. just feels like you are dodging the whole thing... but yeah.. if you could respond where we left off that is great.. you can email me at tatum.parsons@gmail.com or I can start a new thread and you can respond there, and it can be mormon specific, and if people don't like it they don't have to click on it

MPA - This may be a wheeling forum, but you should understand that this is also a community and many many topics get discussed here... and if this was a build thread or tech thread you are right this wouldn't be the right place... but since its not, its all good

[Rocksurfer]

and that scripture in the Book of Mormon isn't referring to any church in particular, and especially not Christianity (since i conciser myself a Christian)... it's referring to any organization that leads people to sin. and any church that teaches about Christ, and brings them closer to God is the Church of God!!!! So unless your church is teaching people that Satan is good or something, then it's not Satan's church... Mormon's don't hate any other religion. if you find a religion that you're happy with GREAT!!!! that's why God gave us the right to choose in this great nation!

I'm sorry to stir this pot but you are mistaken in this comment, you say that any christian religion is Ok and that if you are happy with that is GREAT!!!! So then in your own teachings as a missionary when you did your 2 years would make you a hypocrite since it is taught that you cannot get into the celestial heavens without being baptized into the only church that exists which in Mormonism is the Mormon church. Why do you think we spend days baptizing those that have passed on and have yet to be done.  You really need to get your facts right before you go and say something like this. I think you are trying move us into the center of religion for your own gain here. Don't confuse people and make them think that if they go to a christian church, any christian church they will end up sitting in heaven seated next to you. That sir is just not true. The only way to get there is to be baptized and that would be baptized to Mormon, the original church set up by Jesus when he walked upon the earth.

FYI just so you know the church of the devil is any church other than Mormon, yes I am Mormon and through the bible have found in my heart the true root of all evil, MONEY!!!! That's why I now know that any organized religion is that root since the only thing that makes them work is money and is truly all they want of people that join them. I figured this out when my mother who is on a fixed income had to continue to give even though she could not afford it. She's paid her dues (tithing) and should be allowed to support herself. Family should be first as is preached but my daughter had to pay her tithing even though she would not be able to feed herself during her pregnancy. Sure she was given help by the church but that also made her reliant on the church for her needs. I've come to the conclusion that all religions are about the money, more and more money, the root of all evil.

[chim]

Rocksurfer, although I disagree with your last line of the first paragraph, its kinda different to see a mormon call out another mormon on clarity and truth! So kudos on that.