Topic: '84 SR5 Pickup 20/22R Hybrid Project

[79coyotefrg]

wow, where to start.   I seriously need to start hanging out here instead of fb and tumblr looking at nekkid wimmins

Exhaust first, if that is the 20R exhaust manifold take it off and toss it in the scrap metal bin.  if its the 22R with the two pipes running down to about the cat thenm its ok, you'll never see the real benefits of the hybrid til you get a good header.

timing.  I usually shot for about 30* total BUT I found running a 20R distributor with the SINGLE vacuum port the best possible distributor

just how much did you deck that block??

[79coyotefrg]

New radiator and 180 stat did the trick.  Temp doesn't budge over 180 just running it in the driveway, and no more fuel dripping into the throttle bores.

Did the best lean idle adjustment per Weber instructions and truck idles best with mixture screw 3 - 3.5 turns out so idle jet is too lean.  Suspect the carb is lean overall so need to order a jet kit. 

Setup is as follows:

Air jets:
170 primary
160 secondary

Main jets:
140 primary & secondary

Idle/side jets:
60 primary
50 secondary

engine bogs real bad then takes off if you snap the throttle wide open from idle.  Revs clean to 5500 - I didn't let it run up past that.

Been reading about Weber tuning here and on various different forums and trying to get a handle on maintaining the proper relationship between air and main jet sizing and also how the secondary "idle" jet affects things.   From what I can tell, the idle/side jets are important for transition between closed & WOT and also the primary idle jet will affect part-throttle cruising.  Increasing main jet size makes the carb richer overall and the air jets can fine tune that to a degree.   I might have to invest in a wideband O2...

your float was set way too high,   but the bogging is probably because of your timing.   we need to merge all these topics into ONE THREAD

[79coyotefrg]

start off with 8* and go from there. overall I will leave the timing light on the bench and adjust timing by ear.  which means will blast off with a flick of the throttle but won't kick back when you try to start it.

[79coyotefrg]

New radiator and 180 stat did the trick.  Temp doesn't budge over 180 just running it in the driveway, and no more fuel dripping into the throttle bores.

Did the best lean idle adjustment per Weber instructions and truck idles best with mixture screw 3 - 3.5 turns out so idle jet is too lean.  Suspect the carb is lean overall so need to order a jet kit. 

Setup is as follows:

Air jets:
170 primary
160 secondary

Main jets:
140 primary & secondary

Idle/side jets:
60 primary
50 secondary

engine bogs real bad then takes off if you snap the throttle wide open from idle.  Revs clean to 5500 - I didn't let it run up past that.

Been reading about Weber tuning here and on various different forums and trying to get a handle on maintaining the proper relationship between air and main jet sizing and also how the secondary "idle" jet affects things.   From what I can tell, the idle/side jets are important for transition between closed & WOT and also the primary idle jet will affect part-throttle cruising.  Increasing main jet size makes the carb richer overall and the air jets can fine tune that to a degree.   I might have to invest in a wideband O2...

what elevation do you live??

[Plainview [OP]]

I see that my thread has been "modded."   

The gas tank was totally clean inside - not one spec of rust and no sludge/gunk.  I was amazed.  It did have some small rust pinholes though that came through from the outside and that has been patched.

Thanks 79coyotefrg, I'll address your questions here:

Block decking:  Don't know exactly, but not very much.  Enough to make it flat.  Not more than .010"

I'm in Seattle, so sea-level.

I've been working slowly on the carb, one thing at a time which means the idle jet first.  It's a 70 now and the mixture screw is now at 1-3/4 turns out for best idle.  Part throttle pinging is pretty much gone but every once in a while I still hear a trace of it.  Engine doesn't feel like it has the power it should, have to floor it to really get it to go so will start richening up the main & secondaries and see what happens.

Timing is still at 10* which judging from what LCE told me should be fine (24 total without vacuum).   Could use a little more total but will deal with that later.

Exhaust manifold is the original from the 22R, the 4-into-2 setup that has two separate pipes that run underneath the truck and join before the cat.  Looks like it should flow decently but definitely not as well as a header which will have to wait a little while.  The money gun is smoking hot and needs a rest after ordering suspension today and also replacing the power steering pump and pressure hose.  Work is kind of on-and-off for me as my company is between big jobs right now.  Should be plenty of hours coming in a month and if there's overtime that = header.

I have a 20R distributor but it has the dual vacuum ports.  I'll get around to playing with it soon.

Thanks for all the input.  Should I start a project thread for this truck?  I have quite a few pics of the engine assembly and other stuff here:  http://s114.photobucket.com/user/willhbaker/library/Misc/car%20stuff/Toyota%20Truck

Adding more pics as I go.

[SloCrawler]

Watching this one

[Plainview [OP]]

Got tabs on it for the first time in over 10 years and drove it around a fair amount today after changing the jetting in the carb.  Here's where it's at now:

Primary/Secondary
Idle jets: 70/60
Main Jets: 150/155
Air correctors: 180/170

Runs quite a bit better but I was noticing a bit of a sulfur/egg smell from the exhaust sometimes so guessing I'm a bit on the rich side now in some conditions (cat converters make that smell when running rich).

Still not running like I think it should.  Power drops off pretty significantly after 4000 RPM.  It'll pull to 5000+ but there's no point in revving that high as it runs better down low so shifting earlier around 4500 is best at WOT.

A very annoying problem has cropped up with the carb.  Once the engine gets good and hot from driving around the carb starts to get sticky and the throttle plates won't close all the way, resulting in an idle speed around 2000 RPM.  The linkage nut is NOT too tight, the adapter actually has some wiggle in it.

I have a friend who owns an auto shop so drove by there and he looked at it and thinks the throttle plate on the primary side isn't centered properly in the bore and is binding in the bore when things get good and hot and the metal expands to a certain point.  I may need to sand down the primary throttle plate a little bit...

He also loaned me a combo pressure/vacuum gauge and a plate with a fitting that goes where the O2 sensor goes in the manifold so I can see what my back pressure looks like while driving around.

[4xChinook4]

Good for you bro,  and that interesting about the 'not so high' reving?  Mossy the time that's what hybrids are built for. 
Ignition timing of some nature?

[4xChinook4]

/vacuum advance ??

[79coyotefrg]

I see that my thread has been "modded."   

The gas tank was totally clean inside - not one spec of rust and no sludge/gunk.  I was amazed.  It did have some small rust pinholes though that came through from the outside and that has been patched.

Thanks 79coyotefrg, I'll address your questions here:

Block decking:  Don't know exactly, but not very much.  Enough to make it flat.  Not more than .010"

I'm in Seattle, so sea-level.

I've been working slowly on the carb, one thing at a time which means the idle jet first.  It's a 70 now and the mixture screw is now at 1-3/4 turns out for best idle.  Part throttle pinging is pretty much gone but every once in a while I still hear a trace of it.  Engine doesn't feel like it has the power it should, have to floor it to really get it to go so will start richening up the main & secondaries and see what happens.

Timing is still at 10* which judging from what LCE told me should be fine (24 total without vacuum).   Could use a little more total but will deal with that later.

Exhaust manifold is the original from the 22R, the 4-into-2 setup that has two separate pipes that run underneath the truck and join before the cat.  Looks like it should flow decently but definitely not as well as a header which will have to wait a little while.  The money gun is smoking hot and needs a rest after ordering suspension today and also replacing the power steering pump and pressure hose.  Work is kind of on-and-off for me as my company is between big jobs right now.  Should be plenty of hours coming in a month and if there's overtime that = header.

I have a 20R distributor but it has the dual vacuum ports.  I'll get around to playing with it soon.

Thanks for all the input.  Should I start a project thread for this truck?  I have quite a few pics of the engine assembly and other stuff here:  http://s114.photobucket.com/user/willhbaker/library/Misc/car%20stuff/Toyota%20Truck

Adding more pics as I go.

ok that exhaust manifold is ok, not as good as a header but it will work.  the exhaust is why its dying off at 5000 it just cant get rid of the gasses fast enough.

my throttle did that right after I first got it and I backed the nut off about 1/2 a turn and put a lock nut over that and it fixed it.

keep an eye out for a 20R distributor with the single vacuum thing (dont laugh my brain hurts  )

look in the "weber knowledge" thread and see what my last settings are.  OH are you buying ethanol free gasoline?? 

if you create a buildup thread and name it I can merge it with this one and have all your answers and questions under one thread.
 

[79coyotefrg]

another thing, if you havent already you need to get rid of the stock 1 3/4 inch stock exhaust.  I strongly suggest 2 1/4 inch if you want that hybrid do do good.



http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=WA

[Plainview [OP]]

vac advance is hooked up to the ported source on the carb but there should be no vacuum advance at WOT.  I'll disconnect it and see if that changes anything.

The linkage nut is not the problem.  It was so loose it backed itself completely off.  I found it before it fell off, the only thing keeping it from falling off was that U-shaped rod from the stock linkage but the carb was still sticking.  Only happens when it's good and hot.  Once it cools off a little the problem goes away.

79coyotefrg - I see you're leaner than I am right now.  Interesting.  I'll try changing the fuel jets to match yours and see what happens.

If the exhaust has a lot of restriction that should show up when I hook up the pressure gauge.  It does have 2-1/4" exhaust with a magnaflow muffler.  It also has a high flow cat but the old engine was burning a quart of oil every 500 miles or less so maybe it's plugged.  Again, the gauge will show if I have backpressure problems.

What do you think of the Thorley Tri-Y header?

As for gas, I don't know if ethanol free is available around here anywhere.  If it is, it would only be at a very few stations which isn't really practical.

[79coyotefrg]

Thorley is a good header, only thing beating that is a true LCEngineering header.  NOT the cheap chinese knockoff they are also forced to sell

dude, looks like there be 219 Pure Gas Stations in Washington  and several in Seattle click this link http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=WA and see whats near you.  the ethanol gas will make your well spent motor money go down the drain. 

your exhaust doesnt neck down right before the cat??

[79coyotefrg]

I wish I had a video of my hybrid but when it came apart at high speed I built the heavily modified 22R you hear in this video. my truck weighs about 4300 pounds. 35's and 5.29's, 22R bored .060 over heavily ported head and intake. OLD LC header.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck

[Plainview [OP]]

Unfortunately none of those gas stations are very close to me.  I live in Burien (just South of seattle city limits) and there's only one listed for this area and it's still several miles from me.  None on my normal routes to work.  Having to go way out of the way to buy gas will be a huge PITA.  Surely the engine can be tuned to run acceptably on our E-10...?  I've never had problems due to gas with any other performance engine I've owned.

So the LCE header, like this one (http://www.lceperformance.com/Street-Header-Kit-4wd-Direct-Fit-22R-RE-1982-1984-p/1041037.htm) will make more power than this Thorley? (http://www.lceperformance.com/Doug-Thorley-Header-1981-87-Toyota-Pickup-Truck-4-p/1046022.htm)

I had to replace the cat when I bought the truck so had full 2-1/4" pipes put in from where the two stock pipes come together all the way out the back with a 2-1/4" high flow cat.

[79coyotefrg]

I bet the difference would be damn hard to notice between those two

man that sucks,  my engine runs/ran 15* cooler on "pure gas" than on e10 and had probably 20% more power and would get 17 mpg on pure gas and about 11 on ethanol
 the ethanol burns hot and fast, on these long stroke engines that makes for a power stroke that runs out of power.  but if its out of your way thats fine. just keep an eye out for it.   

[Plainview [OP]]

Yeah, the E-10 does hurt power and mileage a little.  You usually have to jet richer for it, too.  But it's all relative.  This engine should be making more power than it is.  It really doesn't feel much more powerful than the stock engine at this point.

Of course, I have 32s on heavier wheels now.  Before it had 30s on really nice lightweight wheels.  The new wheel/tire combo easily weigh 15 lbs or so each more than the old ones, so I know the extra weight and larger diameter are hurting it a bit.  I need to gear it up but that's going to have to wait awhile.

I took the old wheels off because one had damaged lug holes but I found a place today that will repair it for about $100 so maybe I'll go back to them.  They're old American Racing wheels and they're a little wider (8.5") and have a little less back spacing than the new wheels too, which makes them stick out further.  I was shocked at how light they are once I had the old worn out 30" tires taken off. I do like how the new wheels (15x8" with more back spacing) tuck in better.
 
As for temps, it never gets over 190 and has a 180 stat in it.  It only gets that hot when I'm running it hard and it's a fresh engine with less than 20 miles on it at this point.  Just driving around it runs right at 180.

Your truck sounds real nice in that video!   

Gotta go.  I'm up way past my bedtime.  Start work at 6AM tomorrow but at least I'm working.  They told me earlier this week I'd be off the rest of the week then called me today and said they found a job for me.

[4xChinook4]

Sounds like a bitter sweet, (with your job) . As least your able to fund the project. And wow Glen I did t realize you made ~20% increase on power! That's pretty sick!

[Plainview [OP]]

Worked on the sticky carb today, not sure if I made any real progress.  It's pretty darned cold here today and I didn't get it out 'til after sunset so the engine never got as hot as it did yesterday afternoon when it was sunny and fairly warm.  I *think* I made some progress but the problem's not completely gone so not going to go into it until I've driven it on a warm day again.

I also changed the primary fuel jet to 145.  Throttle response felt a lot more crisp and the engine was running real good but some of that was undoubtedly due to the cold air.  I'm going to leave the secondary side rich for now - I'd rather have it too rich at WOT than too lean.  Hoping I can borrow a wideband O2 from someone at some point so I can find out where things are really at.

[4xChinook4]

Too rich can be better.  Hope you find some one bro.

[Plainview [OP]]

Chinook - not sure what you're referring too, unless you're hoping I can find a sugar momma.   

I've started a build thread for this truck.  79Coyotefrg, can you please merge this thread with that one?  Thanks!

[79coyotefrg]

well did it work??

[Plainview [OP]]

It seems to have, but would you mind putting all the engine stuff after the first two pages instead of before them?   Thanks!

[79coyotefrg]

hey, pull that carb off and chop that center out of the intake.  working on a picture 
here we go 

use a dremel or whatever and cut that out.

  um, i'll try

did the best I could it didnt want to let me change the order or the posts so I kinda forced it.

[79coyotefrg]

for your reading pleasure http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=5628.msg207811#msg207811

[Plainview [OP]]

Glen, thanks for the work merging the threads!

Been too busy with other stuff to work on the truck today but will get after it again tomorrow.  Going to reinstall the 195 thermostat temporarily just so it gets good and hot which is what triggers the carb issues. Then I'll have a better idea of whether I've made any improvements.  Once I get the problem figured out and solve it I'll detail what was wrong and how I fixed it.

[4xChinook4]

Sounds good bro.. can't wait to hear the results.

[Plainview [OP]]

Okay, the carb issues seem to be solved for the most part.  *Might* need to go back in and do a little more work but I'm 100% confident I found the problem and have the solution.

Problem:  Carb sticking when it gets good and hot.  Won't return to idle, binds up with the throttle open enough to "idle" at around 2000-2200 RPM.  You can force the throttle closed but can feel that it's all bound up when you do that and there's a lot of resistance to it re-opening at first.

Hmmm... what could be causing that?   It's not the linkage nut, that's plenty loose and there is some play in the adapter even when the problem is happening.

Nope, it's the primary throttle plate. It's just not the right fit in the bore and when it heats up and expands it starts binding in the bore.

Evidence:

Looks like some burrs/jagged edge on the edge of the throttle plate adjacent to the shaft:


Witness mark in the bore where the plate has been rubbing:


Time to remove the throttle plate/butterfly and take a little material off it.

Prepping the patient for surgery (paper towels stuffed into the throttle bore above the butterfly.)


A die grinder makes short work of the staked ends of the retainer screws.  gotta be careful not to slip and mar the bore:


A little light filing followed by dressing all the sharp edges with some emery cloth results in clearance, Clarence:


While I had it apart I took off the nasty casting flash all around the bottom of the booster:


There are a lot of things that could be done to this carb that would increase airflow through it.  One of these days I'll tackle them, but for now the priority is just getting this truck in reliable running, daily-driver condition.

I put a 195 thermostat in it (had a 180) and drove it around for a half hour, lugging it up hills to get it as hot as I could and the idle pretty much always returns to ~800 RPM which is where it seems happy now.  If I start having problems on hot days again I'll just take a tiny bit more off the throttle plate on the other side where it looks like it might be a bit tight.  The tiny bit of material I'm removing isn't enough to affect the idle speed.

I gave it a bath and took some pictures with the new shoes, too, so I'll have something to compare to when the new suspension gets installed.  I expect the suspension stuff to arrive this week and I'll tackle that task next weekend.



The bed has some rust issues (this is the worst, but there are other spots at most of the seams) but I have a rust-free bed waiting in the wings.  Just need to figure out how to prep it properly so this kind of thing doesn't happen again.




The bed had been repainted before I bought the truck but the cab is still original paint which is now faded and starting to peel on the roof.  Going to have to deal with that sooner than later as there are patches of surface rust forming on the bare spots on the roof.


I'll probably tackle the interior first though as it needs some work.  I'm guessing this truck lived some part of it's life in a much sunnier climate given the overall lack of rust in the cab and frame and the fact the paint is so badly faded and peeling on the cab and all the hard plastic parts in the interior are sun-baked and chalky.  I'm guessing the hardest thing to find will be some good door panels.  Might have to get these rebuilt.


Dogs like trucks!


Going to drive it to work this week and see how it does.  Very timely as my normal daily driver needs brakes bad.

[Plainview [OP]]

Drove it to work today and it was a warm day, upper 70s, and it ran fine.  It's now way under-geared though...  I was cruising 60 MPH in 4th gear at ~2900 RPM.  The speedometer has approximately 15% error.  Shifting to 5th dropped RPMs to ~2200-2400 which is only doable on the flats. 

[79coyotefrg]

Drove it to work today and it was a warm day, upper 70s, and it ran fine.  It's now way under-geared though...  I was cruising 60 MPH in 4th gear at ~2900 RPM.  The speedometer has approximately 15% error.  Shifting to 5th dropped RPMs to ~2200-2400 which is only doable on the flats. 

that things going to like upper 3000 range.   probably get best mileage around 3200.   stock gears right now??