Topic: Tips on buying?

[JFW]

When looking at an 85 Toyota pickup or 4Runner, 22re, 4x4, 5spd manual...before buying what should I look for? Any specific motor components that tend to go bad after a hundred thousand miles or so? Specific rust spots? Things to look for on the drivetrain? Any input is appreciated. Thanks!

[sparkys83yota]

Are you looking for a stock rig or a built rig?

[JFW [OP]]

Stock. A mild lift or bigger tires wouldn't be bad, as long as it's in my budget. Of course, the bigger tires warrant regearing right? Plus I have no crawling experience. So yeah, pretty much stock.

[Snowtoy]

Not much in the way of hidden rust issue here in CA with the trucks, except below the battery from leaking battery acid.  Sometimes you find it along the windshield, otherwise it tends to be just surface rust.  If the tires are bigger than 28 inches, expect it to be a little gutless.  The pre '86 plastic interiors don't seem to hold up well, at least not with the ones I have restored.

Not a lot of hidden issues with the motors either, other than the plastic timing chain guides and lazy owners who don't respond early enough to the rattling noise, and have the chain eat through the timing cover.  Most original engines will have some type of oil leak, usually from the head due to not installing the valve cover gasket correctly, same with the oil pan.  Other leaks tend to be the front seal on the timing cover as well, or water pump.  The valves and injectors on Toyota engines are normally noise, so don't be alarmed with some of the noises when sitting still.  If you want to get an idea of what the trans/engine sound like w/out road noise, you can put the transfer case in neutral, then shift through the gears w/the engine running, as if you are driving it on the highway.  This isn't wont tell you everything since the engine and trans aren't under a load, but it is helpful.

Price range is going to vary greatly, stock beat-up should be anywhere from $1500-2500, clean stock can be as high as $5000.  If you aren't sure you are going for extreme side of the wheeling game, IFS('86-88 2nd gens, and '89-95 3rd gens), are very capable off road, and due to not having the factory straight axle tend to sell for less.  I am not trying to sway you one way or the other, just letting you know about your options if you are new to Toyota's as well as wheeling.

[JFW [OP]]

Wow, awesome insight Snowtoy. Thanks! Yeah, if my search for an 85 goes on too long I may settle for a 2nd gen. I'm not sure if I'll get to the extreme wheeling domain, but I tend to go all the way on things and I'd like to have the ability to.  I love the look of the 85's too.

[Snowtoy]

Glad to be of some help.

I would spend some time driving both gens SA and IFS, before deciding for sure, they ride handle differently, and depending on your driving style or commute might not fit so well.  The IFS on long commutes is nicer on the body, and the 3rd gens are roomier and Toyota used better quality of materials in them, they almost border on the luxury side when compared to the 1st and 2nd gen truck.  Also your physical size will also have an impact on your comfort in the different generations,  At 6'2" I prefer the fit of the 3rd gens over the earlier ones while they aren't that much bigger over all, they have extra room in all the right places.  The 2nd gen extra cabs aren't bad, but not all that much more room behind the seat if you are tall.

Looking on Fresno's Craigslist these are what I would be looking at in the $25-4000 range.

1987 Toyota 4x4 - $3500 (Madera)  It is priced about right for a clean 2nd gen IFS, but would offer about $2500 to start with due to the raggedy carpet kit in the back, maybe more/less depending on how it looked/felt/drove in person.

1988 Toyota 4runner - $3000 (fresno) 
Not a bad price, remove the fender flares, since they don't match the body lines.  I would start out with an offer in the low 2k's, due to mashed rear bumper, somewhere around $2500 would be fair.

If you know for sure you are going to be wheeling and this isn't going to be a daily driver, at least not one where you have to be clean when you get out of it, this 84 Toyota pickup 22r sale or trade - $3200 (fresno)  Fair price for what you are getting if the interior is clean and the work done wasn't a hack job.

No pic, so not sure if it is worth $3500 even with the SAS due to it not being tagged,Toyota truck ex-cab 4x4 1988 - $3500 (Fresno) 

1989 toyota 4x4 r22 - $3500 (san Joaquín)  I would bring my own wheels and offer him $2k if it needs paint and not just a good buffing, to me those wheels are hideous.

If still available this looks like it might be worth looking at TOYOTA 4X4 TRUCK 1985 - $3800 (FRESNO) price could be about right depending on how it looks in person, pics are a bit small.

If you end up with an IFS truck either do to not finding a decent SA you wanted to spend the money on, comfort amenities, you can still build the IFS to meet your needs, and always swap in a straight axle if/when you found the need to.  The '96-04 Tacomas are also another choice if they are within your budget, like the IFS rigs they can has a straight axle swapped in, and with them you get a more powerful 4 cylinder or V6 that is more on par with what most Americans expect from engines nowadays.

[sparkys83yota]

I would definitly be looking for a 22re. Every body I know, including myself, who started off with a 22 r ended up doing a pain in the butt swap to 22re.

[Cheesemaker]

Snowtoy has given alot of info.  I would look at the frame beside the fuel tank.  And the crossmember in front of the tank too.  Common areas for rust. 

Sit in some cabs, and see what fits for you.  I'm the opposite of Snowtoy.  I fit better in a 2nd gen standard cab than in the 3rd gen standard cab.   I have way more leg room. 

[JFW [OP]]

Thanks again Snowtoy! Man, you didnt have to do all that but it's very greatly appreciated. I'll be checking some of those out for sure if I can't find the right '85 in the next month or so.

Sparkys83yota - that's the plan, 22RE.

Cheesemaker- thank you, definitely good to know. Yeah, I'm only about 5'11", but fairly broad shouldered so I guess I'll have to see what fits.

Can't say how much I appreciate all the amazing input thus far. You guys are awesome!

[JFW [OP]]

Well, there was a Craigslist ad for an 85 4Runner in Venice, CA. I responded saying that I'm very interested and have the cash so I'm not just a lookie lou. The guy has been really spotty in responding, never really answering any questions or sending more pics. The only pic he had on the ad was a far away pic of the truck in front of the ocean. Now the ad isn't up, but he did respond earlier saying he could show the truck Saturday. It's starting to feel really fishy. What do you guys think? If I were to drive down to see it I'd be taking my buddy with me who has his CCW. lol I just don't want to waste my time, get scammed, pulled into anything not on the up and up, or worse.

[Cheesemaker]

I'm a fan of CL, but I also hate it at the same time.  I've tried selling things on CL, and I come to the conclusion that if you want to look at it, then meet me at Marlin's shop, or McDonalds on 89th st, and never at your house.   

Your best bet is some local ads.  That way, you and a buddy can meet them at a public place.  And not have to deal with the flakes that won't give good pictures.  I hate sellers with crappy camera skills. 

[JFW [OP]]

Yeah, Craigslist has gotten pretty bad. I hear what you're saying about keeping it local, just haven't found what I'm looking for around here. They're all northern and southern CA. I can deal with the crappy camera skills, it's the crappy communication and people skills that annoy me. Seriously, in this day and age a 12 YEAR OLD can send an email in about 2 minutes. Probably on a smart phone, no less. So what's the deal? lol

[camhays556]

shoot for a 22re even if its ifs suspension.. you can always do a sas later and save the time and money of doing a 22re swap.. 22r engines are alot of work but try and drive both an see which you like.
Ask if the seller will smog the truck first and if they say no that usually means it has engine problems.
To give you an idea. I paid 1800 for an ifs 4runner (an that was a steal).. 2500 is the usual price range for them
Patience is key on craigslist
Good luck

[Snowtoy]

Well, there was a Craigslist ad for an 85 4Runner in Venice, CA. I responded saying that I'm very interested and have the cash so I'm not just a lookie lou. The guy has been really spotty in responding, never really answering any questions or sending more pics. The only pic he had on the ad was a far away pic of the truck in front of the ocean. Now the ad isn't up, but he did respond earlier saying he could show the truck Saturday. It's starting to feel really fishy. What do you guys think? If I were to drive down to see it I'd be taking my buddy with me who has his CCW. lol I just don't want to waste my time, get scammed, pulled into anything not on the up and up, or worse.

I always chuckle when I here people who were mugged, beaten up, sexually assaulted, etc., when they say things like "I had a funny feeling things were off with this person", or "The alley looked dangerous but it was a short cut and I wanted to get home quicker because it was raining".  I chuckle not to be mean or because what happened to them is funny, but due to the irony of their situation.  Their instincts were sounding all the bells and whistles, the very same instincts that our ancestors spent millions of years honing, yet they talk themselves out of listening to them, or rationalize the feelings away.  Your insight is likely right, you should follow what your instincts are telling. 

If you do decide to go and look at it, your friend with the CCW is a good start, but that doesn't mean you are safe, if it were I, I would meet as close to the police station or fire station as I could, or his house, definitely not a shopping center parking lot, gas station or fast food joint.

[Snowtoy]

I haven't had issues with CL yet, other than the BS'ers and flakes but I live in a rural area.  When I head to Sac. or the bay area for something, if I can't meet them at their house or in a high traffic area, I wont bother with with the item, it just isn't worth the risk.

[Snowtoy]

Thanks again Snowtoy! Man, you didnt have to do all that but it's very greatly appreciated. I'll be checking some of those out for sure if I can't find the right '85 in the next month or so.

No problem, I was bored, and wanted to give you an idea of what I thought of what was available in your area, in the middle of the price range. 

If you can turn a wrench with confidence/or have someone who can help you, buying one in need of some work is also a great way to find good deals.  I have been restoring and selling 2nd and 2rd gens for about 10yrs now, and tend to start out with a truck for around $500-1000, and can usually have them up and running for another $500, and outside of the one I restored for my nephew I haven't ever spent more than $1600(not counting my own labor).  However if you don't have the room or time for a project rig, it is best to not go that route, heck even when you do, you tend to end up with one or more projects ending up just sitting there.

[JFW [OP]]

I hear ya Snowtoy. I haven't heard anything from the guy anyways, so whatever. Check another one of the list.

Yeah, room is definitely a problem. Plus it's going to be my daily driver so I'd like to have it ready for that fairly quickly. I'm not super experienced working on cars and trucks, but given the time I could probably bring one up to speed. That is, if I have all the right tools. Hey, there's an excuse to buy more tools!

Any thoughts on this?
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/3986542356.html

Probably pretty gutless with the left and tires and no regearing, right? But looks pretty clean, though the white everything is a bit obnoxious. lol

[Snowtoy]

If it is going to be your DD, a project rig is definitely out, it is hard enough when your DD is also your trail rig and you break something on the weekend, that has to be fixed by Monday.

Looks clean in the picks, tire size wouldn't be that much of an issue short term, you could swap in factory 4.88 gear sets from an '89-95 Toyota truck or '90-95 Runner that came with an auto/v6/31 tires, for about $4-500, would need two rear 3rd members.  This set-up would give you a little more performance that stock gears/tires, would be spot on for 33's likely your next tire, and would be under geared for 35's but not like 4.10's which most people run before they get to a gear change.  Just be aware that you can't run taller gears in the factory 4.88 gear 3rds so you would either need to keep the 4.10's or buy some later.

Too me, the price is a bit high since the plastic is cracked, and there is some rust(doesn't say where or if it is surface or worse).  Maybe it is just me, but when I ask prices at the highest end I present them the way I would expect to buy them, i.e. as close to new condition as possible.  Personally I think it is closer to the $4500-5000 range based on what is in the pics and the information given stated.  Given the distance/price, I would have a dealer do a once over, before heading back to CA with it.  On the plus side with it being an AZ vehicle, you are only obligated to meat the Fed smog equipment and test standards, not the CA ones.

[JFW [OP]]

Yeah, figured as much. lol

Tell me if I'm wrong, but regearing is something you should usually have professionally done, no? I can definitely say I don't have enough experience on vehicles to do it.  Can you explain to me why you can't use the 4.88 thirds?

Well, here's the skinny. I contacted the guy via text. He's been super responsive and helpful. Said he's out of town for the weekend but will be back in Phoenix Monday. Said he'd shoot me the VIN then so I can run a Carfax. I offered him $4500, but he won't go that low. Said the ad hasn't been up long and he's had a lot of inquiries. I have all next week off so I'm planning on going to see it Monday. We'll see what he'll do on the price. I won't go over $5500. Here are some other pictures he sent me:

[Snowtoy]

Setting up the gears in the diffs is best done by an experienced person, bench labor is about $150 plus the cost of gears to do it.  BEnch labor means you would pull the 3rd members and take them to a shop, and then install them yourself.  This save you from paying a shop to spend their time or your money doing something that you can do in your driveway, it is about as hard to remove a 3rd member as it is to change a tire.  You can also order third members from shops like Marlin's, that come regeared, or regeared with a locker.

IIRC, Toyota used a different 3rd member housing for their 4.88 3rd members, so after market gears wont fit.  It wouldn't be an issue if you were to buy a set of factory used 4.88's and ran them until you were ready for 5.29's and lockers, you could easily resell them, and either make money on them or at worst break even.   

If it is as clean in person as it looks in the pics, runs/drives well, and the seat covers are there just to protect the seats, $5500 wouldn't be outside the market, you are also getting extras like the tube doors and some type of extra cover for when the shell is off.  It says it is unpainted, not sure if he means the canvass bikini top or some type of hard top or half shell.

[JFW [OP]]

The bench route would be cool if I knew what I was doing. I don't think $1000 plus per 3rd for Marlins is gonna be feasible either.

That sounds like the route for me. Is there a specific year or type I should be looking for? What's a reasonable price? I've sifted through some classifieds here and on Yotatech and seen stock 4.88 3rds anywhere from $150 to $400 per.  Thinking I could just contact Yotayard or the one in Missouri(practically anything you want).

Ok, thanks for the assessment. I think the extra cover is a half shell. He told me that most of the plastic trim from the back of the front seats on back is either cracked or non-existent.  Not sure how much that figures into the price. It matters to me, but might not to others.

[zembalayan]

I saw the ad, and there are some good traits there for sure, but being a searcher on CL and the boards for a decent amount of time now, I would suggest that you continue to shop a bit, and let your offer marinate with the guy.  Having a good amount of cash ready and on hand will always help a lot when you see an excellent deal, too. This one may not be bad, but that interior better look "time capsuled" for a re-painted, re-motored, 300 plus odometered truck for that asking price.   

I have looked patiently with my full cash on hand, and i have seized a couple of smoking deals because the sellers were not completely aware of the public's appetite for some of these older  trucks.  Also, in one case, the seller posted first cash for asking takes it, and I held him to honor his ad, which was only hours old; even though, he had already promised it to the first looker who asked the seller to hold it while he scrounged for the small sum of money that he did not have ready early that morning.  The seller said he felt bad, but he knew what his ad said, and I had cash in hand.  He called the guy and broke the news.  That guy missed a great deal because he had no cash on hand. 

Again, waiting and searching patiently for a deal that you can wholeheartedly say yes to is what I find to be most pleasing.  It kind of stinks to wait, but getting a good one at a good price is fun, too. 

Don't let people tell you any of these trucks are all that rare.  Based upon my desire to own a solid axle factory, U.S. spec. factory Toyota diesel 4x4, I have found and purchased two  of those since 2009. One was a bit rough around the edges, but still ran very well as a DD with everything working right; the other one was cheaper, and it has been a challenge, but she is coming together at last.  My point is that looking hard will get you almost anything you want, and "rare" should be taken with a grain of salt.  Are 22RE 2nd gen. 4Runners rare? Hardly since we've had three since 1992.  For fun, I have wanted to find a cherry, white, two door, 2nd gen. SR5 4Runner with a 22RE.  Not sure how many are out there, but I have to believe its findable, and it would be cool to have a 2 door as a matter of style. :-)

For me, I love white trucks, but I prefer factory paint and factory motors to start with. I have never bought a built truck before-- only stockers. 

As a buyer's tip, I suggest that you look at the fuse box and panels, and confirm that everything is original looking (no new or different fuses) in hopes of ensuring that you are not buying an electrical problem as well. 

Using a magnet to check for past body work is helpful sometimes.  Good luck!

Snowtoy and others really offered some good advice!

[Wainiha]

That fuse box advice is really smart.  Proabably often overlooked.  Electrical problems are the hardest for most people. 

The magnet suggestion is pretty slick as well.

[JFW [OP]]

Yeah, definitely. Thanks Zemalayan. I wouldn't have thought of that.

I do have patience, but this is only one of two that I've come across in the last 4 months that have been this clean body-wise. This truck will be my daily driver, so I don't have time to have it in the shop having body work done. I agree with what you're saying though. The high mileage and interior issues don't warrant the price he's asking. I think he's trying to stick to his price because he's helping out a family member with the money. I know, boo hoo, not my problem. Regardless, I get that. Business is business though. I'll stick to my guns.

I think you must be on the luckier end of those looking for these trucks. lol Most I've talked to have searched for years sometimes before finding something decent. Yeah, decent is subjective too. I know. Finding two of those diesels though, nice. The "rare" thing isn't an issue. I might get excited about a pristine vertigo interior on a mint stock, fully loaded model with a sunroof, but that's about it.

Awesome buying tips. Thank you!

[Snowtoy]

His price and your needs are why I would have a dealer look at it.  Yes it is another $100-150, but he should be willing to go in half with you, if you can't come to an agreeable price, he will have the dealers write-up to help with the sale, and if you do get it, you will have some peace of mind on your drive back from Phoenix.  The I-10 in the middle of summer is the last place you want to have a break down, as well as having something dependable to get to work to everyday.

I like Zemalayan tend to be very patient with what I am looking for, then again I am looking to make as much money from a restoration as I can, but our situations are a little different than yours.

[Snowtoy]

The bench route would be cool if I knew what I was doing. I don't think $1000 plus per 3rd for Marlins is gonna be feasible either.

That sounds like the route for me. Is there a specific year or type I should be looking for? What's a reasonable price? I've sifted through some classifieds here and on Yotatech and seen stock 4.88 3rds anywhere from $150 to $400 per.  Thinking I could just contact Yotayard or the one in Missouri(practically anything you want).

Ok, thanks for the assessment. I think the extra cover is a half shell. He told me that most of the plastic trim from the back of the front seats on back is either cracked or non-existent.  Not sure how much that figures into the price. It matters to me, but might not to others.

The rear 3rd members(of which you will need to) would come from '89-'95 3rd gen trucks that came with automatics trans, V6 engines and 31 in tall tires from the factory, and '90-'95 2nd gen Runners with the same option.  I have seen the same $150-400 range, then you also have the used after market ones, and then you can usually find them with 5.29 gears for about $200 up.

At the $6k list price the interior really should be as clean as the exterior, and none of it interior should be missing.  A cracked dash on that generation is common place, as well as with the other plastic used, but the price should also reflect that as well.  $6k is the price you ask for a truck that was owned by a little old lady who used it as grocery getter, that her grandson got and put a lift, not one rode rough with a fresh coat of paint.  I would go with the opinion that pics may have been taken selectively, that way you wont be disappointed when you get there and the were.  If the plastic is all broken, I would start with $3500-4k once you are there in person, and that is if it gets a clean bill of health from the dealer.  Also don't be afraid to turn the question around on him, and ask if he would expect to pay what he is asking, not knowing what the engine/trans and new paint cost.  Those items don't add extra value to a car, they just help you get the high end of the market range, which missing interior pieces doesn't do.

[Snowtoy]

If you are going to be in Phoenix for a day or two, this one in Tempe would be worth looking at.  It is a 2nd gen 4 door with the 22re, not sure if you considered those or not in what you were looking for.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/3984949995.html

Not sure about the attention it would get, but this '86 might be worth looking at as well.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/3983625710.html
Don't know if I like the paints scheme or not, would have to see it in person.

[JFW [OP]]

Ok, thanks. I'll keep an eye out. I definitely want to regear.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I think he's putting too much stock in the powder coated bumpers and the fact that it's an 85. We'll see how he feels when he sees the cash in front of him. He says he's had a lot of inquiries, but unless one's a sucker he's not going to get nearly $6k.

That '91 looks and sounds solid, and for that price? Hmm...might have to give 'em a call. I can really only be down there for a day, more if I buy something to get my self back home. lol I'm not going to put myself in that situation though.

Where are you located Snowtoy? I'm gonna have to buy you some beers if I'm ever in your neck of the woods!

[JFW [OP]]

Here's an '89 I found on Clist:
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/cto/3993585195.html

Talked to the guy, he say it's never been offroad. A/C WAS working great, not blowing cold now. Not sure if the 89's used R12 or 134. Would that be a major pita? Says the back window works pretty well, intermittent at times. Has a clutch issue. He thinks it's just the "fluid"? Said he has to push it in a couple times to get it to work every now and then. No rust except for a little forming at the chrome trim on the top edge of the windshield. Is that a bad indicator that there's probably more under the trim?

Overall, I think it looks pretty good from the pictures if that's saying anything. lol If I could get it for $3500-4 would it be worth dealing with any of those issues? I'm not thrilled about the speakers in the doors, but whatever. This may be a dumb question, but what are both the latches on the door for? I know one's to open it, duh, but the other?

[JFW [OP]]

Gotta run! I'll post a few more later.