Author Topic: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?  (Read 21390 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

<3 Low range

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 17
  • Member since Dec '11
thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« on: Jul 02, 2013, 06:17:48 PM »
Just installed Trail Gear HD leaf springs on my SAS T100. The front is currently higher than the rear springs. For the rear lift i did a chevy spring swap. I have some buddies with Non HD TG leaf springs in the front and neither of there leaf springs seemed to settle. The one truck even has a beefy front bumper and a tune port 350 and still with all that weight never seemed to settle. Both of there trucks have also been lifted and wheeled for 2 years. Anyone have any experiences with them settling?
So far at this point i am considering going with smaller lift HD springs and perhaps even the NON HD springs.   

zembalayan

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 239
  • Male Posts: 486
  • Member since Feb '08
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #1 on: Jul 02, 2013, 08:28:15 PM »
If I were you, I'd corner weight your rig loaded and unloaded and call up a custom leaf spring manufacturer and have a set spring packs built to your desired specs.  A lot can be done, including reverse eyes, etc.  Or maybe you could try to build and experiment with your own spring pack configurations.  I have personally used Marlin Crawler branded 4" fronts and 5" HD rears, which were great!  I also have had great experiences with front and rear Aussie-made HD Old Man Emu 2" springs for a solid-axle 1st gen. mini truck, which I do love.  I have also used front medium duty Emu Dakar 2" springs on a solid axle 2nd gen mini truck, which did not handle the extra weight of an ARB bumper and winch up front very well, but they still were not bad.  I am currently using custom built thin leafed National Spring Company springs, which absolutely rock.  I know that Deaver has a good rep. and I have checked with Betts Spring Company, and they will do custom if you want.  As for Alcan, I have seen first hand and heard great things, but online i have read some strong criticisms, too, but mostly about service and botched orders.  As you get into custom springs, the price begins to move toward a tipping point where you start to wish you just linked correctly in the first place, maybe by calling 4WU or a reputable fabricator / link suspension builder, which is to say (if you are not already suspicious or aware) that you will have wanted to avoid TG link kits all together and possibly other DIY Link kits as well.  I like dumb, simple, yet high quality suspension components and leaves, Just like i have enjoyed and already described above.  You got new stuff--not sure how it works or how it will hold up--but maybe you could try to make a hybrid pack with them if your dissatisfied.  Good luck!
« Last Edit: Jul 02, 2013, 08:39:43 PM by zembalayan »

79coyotefrg

  • Rock Ninja
  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1357
  • Male Posts: 22,604
  • Member since May '02
  • Solid axle Toys Rule ! ! !
    • HotSprings Superlift ORV park
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #2 on: Jul 03, 2013, 05:39:54 PM »
almost everything TG sells either doesnt work right or fails way before it should.   they have "great prices" because the products they sell are cheap chinese knock off's.   check out Old Man Emu or Allpro and pay a few more bucks now and never worry about it.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

<3 Low range [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 17
  • Member since Dec '11
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #3 on: Jul 09, 2013, 06:13:38 PM »
I think that the allpro and TG springs are the same. Most likely made by the same manufacturing company. They have basically the same design, specs, and price.   

Cyberman

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Posts: 83
  • Member since Dec '07
    • Build Thread
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #4 on: Jul 10, 2013, 03:58:56 AM »
Had the same problem.

I bought the hd leafs as well, because of the extra weight of a v6, winch and bumper.

Take out the HD leaf.  Pretty sure it was the third one from the top, but TG can tell you for sure.  HD is the same as regular, with that extra leaf.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

'91 Xtra cab 3.0 SAS, 5.29s, single 4.7 transfer, locked f/r, 35s
My Frame-up Rebuild Thread

hansi530

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 4
  • Male Posts: 412
  • Member since Sep '10
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #5 on: Jul 10, 2013, 06:37:28 AM »
i bought the hd 4" leafs and it was probably one of the worst decisions i have ever made on my truck i bent them 2 weeks after i put them on and you loose the height really fast with in a half a year they sat about the same as a ruf pack
88 custom cab: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=88026.new#new
shitlbuffout-A saying among 4x4 and off road enthusiasts. Its said after damage normally cosmetic to minor parts damage has occurred on there rig or vehicle. Shitlbuffout is :pokinit: will buff out as in the :pokinit: being the damage will buff as in painted over cleaned polished or "buffed" out.

zembalayan

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 239
  • Male Posts: 486
  • Member since Feb '08
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #6 on: Jul 10, 2013, 08:57:47 AM »
i bought the hd 4" leafs and it was probably one of the worst decisions i have ever made on my truck i bent them 2 weeks after i put them on and you loose the height really fast with in a half a year they sat about the same as a ruf pack

This story seems to replay itself over and over. 


I think that the allpro and TG springs are the same. Most likely made by the same manufacturing company. They have basically the same design, specs, and price.   

Specs. published online seem different to me.  You should ask TG and All-Pro; both would probably prefer accurate info posted.  I have used All-Pro products, and I have been very happy with them.  I have heard and read less than stellar reports about TG stuff, but many people like their prices, and it seems that some take a cafeteria approach with TG buying some things but avoiding other items.  The choice is yours.  I like this board.  I have loved all the products and service that I have received from Marlin and Crew so I buy from Marlin. 


88_Pathy

  • Offline The 1K Club
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 65
  • Male Posts: 1,252
  • Member since Oct '06
  • Raised suspension
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #7 on: Jul 10, 2013, 09:45:44 AM »
I have seen personally, TG leaves do not hold up well. But, since you already paid for them, pull a leaf and run them for a trip. They will settle, then plan on putting it back in eventually when they sag beyond your desired height and stiffness.

zembalayan

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 239
  • Male Posts: 486
  • Member since Feb '08
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #8 on: Jul 10, 2013, 10:50:54 AM »
I have seen personally, TG leaves do not hold up well. But, since you already paid for them, pull a leaf and run them for a trip. They will settle, then plan on putting it back in eventually when they sag beyond your desired height and stiffness.

Or he could sell 'em.

AaronB

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 252
  • Male Posts: 2,452
  • Member since Nov '05
  • Wish I Was Crawling
    • Buy me a beer
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #9 on: Jul 10, 2013, 11:53:33 AM »
I think that the allpro and TG springs are the same. Most likely made by the same manufacturing company. They have basically the same design, specs, and price.   

How is that possible when TG uses Chinese steel and AP uses USA steel?

"Never make your passion your occupation. it will loose it's luster and become work. that's why i never wanted to become a gynecologist!"

I also taught him how to put in 5min of hard work and then spend 15min staring and admiring what you have done...

<3 Low range [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 17
  • Member since Dec '11
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #10 on: Jul 10, 2013, 01:11:35 PM »
I didn't know that TG used old american cars (chinese steel). so yes ALL Pro seems to be the superior product. ALthough iam still in college so the budget is slim. I would like to sell them and get a custom leaf set. I have also tried removing a spring almost made the arch flat. I do not remember if it was the third from top? Guess i will be experiment with the pack tonight. If still not happy they are going to be up for sale.

IronClad

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 635
  • Male Posts: 2,284
  • Member since Feb '05
  • Annihilation Fabrication
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #11 on: Jul 10, 2013, 01:34:42 PM »
almost everything TG sells either doesnt work right or fails way before it should.   they have "great prices" because the products they sell are cheap chinese knock off's.   check out Old Man Emu or Allpro and pay a few more bucks now and never worry about it.

Please tell me about all the TG products you have ran.
Annihilation  Fabrication
Do you need a Hammer?
My build thingy... http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=39885.0
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Word hard, Keep your head in the game and if anyone gets in your way tell them you don't give a damn !

sparkys83yota

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 6
  • Male Posts: 320
  • Member since Jul '09
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #12 on: Jul 10, 2013, 02:29:43 PM »
I have never ran tg springs. My only expierence is with all pro or marlin. I have built two rigs now. I sold my first one to one of my closest friends. The all pro springs on that rig are going on 5 yrs now and have not flattened out and still flex like crazy. My two cents is that it was worth the extra coin I spent on the springs. I have only heard bad things about tg springs. Does any one have proof that they are chinese steel?
83 shorbed pickup. 22 re swap. Dual ultimates, l52hd tranny, 5 " marlin trailflex lift. Yukon 529. Grizzly in rear zip locker front. And a bunch of other stuff....

IronClad

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 635
  • Male Posts: 2,284
  • Member since Feb '05
  • Annihilation Fabrication
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #13 on: Jul 10, 2013, 03:49:53 PM »
I have never ran tg springs. My only expierence is with all pro or marlin. I have built two rigs now. I sold my first one to one of my closest friends. The all pro springs on that rig are going on 5 yrs now and have not flattened out and still flex like crazy. My two cents is that it was worth the extra coin I spent on the springs. I have only heard bad things about tg springs. Does any one have proof that they are chinese steel?

No noone does.  They like to just talk smack because TG via good ole chris gieger the 4wd shop sleeper was going to merge with marlin and backed out at the last second. Anything they have to say about them is unfounded and generally they have never owned a tg part let alone held one in their hands.  If they were as bad as they say they are on here my truck would have exploded or fell apart by now.


Allpro springs used to have a very bad issue where they would bend near the eyes making the spring into an S shape and sag very bad, If they still do this or not i am unsure.
Annihilation  Fabrication
Do you need a Hammer?
My build thingy... http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=39885.0
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Word hard, Keep your head in the game and if anyone gets in your way tell them you don't give a damn !

AaronB

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 252
  • Male Posts: 2,452
  • Member since Nov '05
  • Wish I Was Crawling
    • Buy me a beer
"Never make your passion your occupation. it will loose it's luster and become work. that's why i never wanted to become a gynecologist!"

I also taught him how to put in 5min of hard work and then spend 15min staring and admiring what you have done...

IronClad

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 635
  • Male Posts: 2,284
  • Member since Feb '05
  • Annihilation Fabrication
Annihilation  Fabrication
Do you need a Hammer?
My build thingy... http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=39885.0
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Word hard, Keep your head in the game and if anyone gets in your way tell them you don't give a damn !

AaronB

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 252
  • Male Posts: 2,452
  • Member since Nov '05
  • Wish I Was Crawling
    • Buy me a beer
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #16 on: Jul 10, 2013, 05:33:51 PM »
http://www.trail-gear.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-6725.html


there are hundreds of topics on this, Tg will not release that information. It has been proven over and over they use "inferior" (Cough cough Chinese) metals.
Explain how else they are able to under cut everyone else on prices?
« Last Edit: Jul 10, 2013, 05:41:03 PM by AaronB »
"Never make your passion your occupation. it will loose it's luster and become work. that's why i never wanted to become a gynecologist!"

I also taught him how to put in 5min of hard work and then spend 15min staring and admiring what you have done...

IronClad

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 635
  • Male Posts: 2,284
  • Member since Feb '05
  • Annihilation Fabrication
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #17 on: Jul 10, 2013, 05:52:31 PM »
http://www.trail-gear.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-6725.html


there are hundreds of topics on this, Tg will not release that information. It has been proven over and over they use "inferior" (Cough cough Chinese) metals.
Explain how else they are able to under cut everyone else on prices?


America also makes really terrible products and cheap steel.  Just because somthing is american made doesnt mean its good.  Again please show me where it says the steel is from china, That post you linked just shows some random person CLAIMING to have worked in QC and the material make up matches that of somthing that comes from china. Please explain to me how that means that their products are indeed from china. 


Again and again i could go on about how many claims are unfounded but the fact of the matter remains that there is absolutely no proof and people yammer on about how they want american made parts on their jap truck just crack me the hell up.
Annihilation  Fabrication
Do you need a Hammer?
My build thingy... http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=39885.0
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Word hard, Keep your head in the game and if anyone gets in your way tell them you don't give a damn !

AaronB

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 252
  • Male Posts: 2,452
  • Member since Nov '05
  • Wish I Was Crawling
    • Buy me a beer
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #18 on: Jul 10, 2013, 06:01:13 PM »
Yeah its called cast. Either way its an inferior product proven by Bike Mike himself.
"Never make your passion your occupation. it will loose it's luster and become work. that's why i never wanted to become a gynecologist!"

I also taught him how to put in 5min of hard work and then spend 15min staring and admiring what you have done...

IronClad

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 635
  • Male Posts: 2,284
  • Member since Feb '05
  • Annihilation Fabrication
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #19 on: Jul 10, 2013, 06:02:40 PM »
Not going to prove to me about how its china steel ?
Annihilation  Fabrication
Do you need a Hammer?
My build thingy... http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=39885.0
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Word hard, Keep your head in the game and if anyone gets in your way tell them you don't give a damn !

AaronB

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 252
  • Male Posts: 2,452
  • Member since Nov '05
  • Wish I Was Crawling
    • Buy me a beer
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #20 on: Jul 10, 2013, 06:10:45 PM »
I think the fact that they won't release the information is proof enough. Why hide it?
"Never make your passion your occupation. it will loose it's luster and become work. that's why i never wanted to become a gynecologist!"

I also taught him how to put in 5min of hard work and then spend 15min staring and admiring what you have done...

IronClad

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 635
  • Male Posts: 2,284
  • Member since Feb '05
  • Annihilation Fabrication
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #21 on: Jul 10, 2013, 06:16:15 PM »
Its pretty standard industry practice that they wouldnt release the makeup of their material.  I bet if you went and asked marlin for their exact makeup of their material they would tell you to go away. In fact im pretty sure its already been asked and the people were told no.  The reason to hide it is so that others do not copy it, there are many proprietary things going on with all aspects of the manufacturing world that are a closely guarded secret.


People just get this stupid notion that they are somehow entitled to know exactly how/what goes into the product they buy.
Annihilation  Fabrication
Do you need a Hammer?
My build thingy... http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=39885.0
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Word hard, Keep your head in the game and if anyone gets in your way tell them you don't give a damn !

AaronB

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 252
  • Male Posts: 2,452
  • Member since Nov '05
  • Wish I Was Crawling
    • Buy me a beer
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #22 on: Jul 10, 2013, 06:38:46 PM »
You're definitely entitled to your opinion but I'll stick with what I believe.
"Never make your passion your occupation. it will loose it's luster and become work. that's why i never wanted to become a gynecologist!"

I also taught him how to put in 5min of hard work and then spend 15min staring and admiring what you have done...

IronClad

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 635
  • Male Posts: 2,284
  • Member since Feb '05
  • Annihilation Fabrication
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #23 on: Jul 10, 2013, 06:43:05 PM »
Thats fine and dandy. Just know its based on unfounded misinformation
Annihilation  Fabrication
Do you need a Hammer?
My build thingy... http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=39885.0
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Word hard, Keep your head in the game and if anyone gets in your way tell them you don't give a damn !

Nation

  • Offline The 1.5K Club
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 1,567
  • Member since Mar '13
  • @nationallmotors
    • Buy me a soda
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #24 on: Jul 10, 2013, 08:36:14 PM »
TG= POOP
3RZ, LC engineering Turbo kit, R151, Dual Ultimate, Yota axles-5:29s, Spartan front, LSD Rear

mudaddict

  • Offline The 1.5K Club
  • **
  • Turtle Points: -83
  • Male Posts: 1,829
  • Member since Dec '04
    • All Pro Off Road
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #25 on: Jul 11, 2013, 10:52:32 AM »
I think that the allpro and TG springs are the same. Most likely made by the same manufacturing company. They have basically the same design, specs, and price.   

just want to clearify this. They are not the same springs. We have had our springs well before trail gear came about. They were designed after our springs
98 Taco- Super charged, sas'd, bobbed, locked,taco boxed with 39's
Taco Build http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=88901.0


I work At
All Pro Off Road

Cheesemaker

  • Rock Ninja
  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1437
  • Male Posts: 4,450
  • Member since Sep '04
  • Dean Tyler, you were an inspiration to all!!
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #26 on: Jul 11, 2013, 10:59:52 AM »
Why don't you call Sky Offroad and ask them why they quit selling TG stuff?  I was down there and picked up a SAS front crossmember and asked them about what they have that is TG, cause I refuse to run their stuff.  And they said they got tired of trying of sell product that just comes back broke or bent in a matter of a couple trips. 


Ironclad, the failed merger was a blessing.  It was a scam that Chris Geiger organized! 
Miss ya Dean (4THEWKN) & Kyle (KYOTA)!!

4THEWKN~9/17/2006  If it wasn't for you, I'd be driving something other than a Toyota!

My build up ~ project Kilchis! http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32961.0
Zak's truck build ~ http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=64319.0;topicseen

Snowtoy

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 720
  • Male Posts: 2,331
  • Member since Sep '03
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #27 on: Jul 11, 2013, 11:26:59 AM »
Its pretty standard industry practice that they wouldnt release the makeup of their material.  I bet if you went and asked marlin for their exact makeup of their material they would tell you to go away. In fact im pretty sure its already been asked and the people were told no.  The reason to hide it is so that others do not copy it, there are many proprietary things going on with all aspects of the manufacturing world that are a closely guarded secret.


People just get this stupid notion that they are somehow entitled to know exactly how/what goes into the product they buy.
Country of manufacture of a product/materials used in the product is not proprietary information, just the make up of the raw materials would be. 

The only reasons why a company wouldn't tell a customer where the products or the raw materials to make the product were produced, is because they are ashamed of to say, don't know, or don't care.  As a customer you have the right to know where the product is made, whether for a belief in quality or simply because you don't want to support a nation that isn't inline with your political/social belief system.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

pumkin toy

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: -5
  • Male Posts: 3,561
  • Member since Sep '05
  • Do You Know A Sweeney Bro?
    • Buy me a beer
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #28 on: Jul 11, 2013, 01:44:07 PM »
idk anything about what quality of steel TG uses or what country it comes from. the fact still remains that most of their springs bend, break, sag, wear out and all around generally suck! Two of my buddies made the mistake of putting them on their rigs and they bent and sagged within a few trailrides.  I'm not here to say everything tg makes is garbage, because there are some products I would buy from them, but leaf springs are NOT one of those products! 

OME or custom built Alcan springs are the best aftermarket stuff you can buy. otherwise just run the stock Toyota stuff! Why get rid of the quality parts that are already on our Toyota's?
97 4runner Limited
4runner Build Thread http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=54076.1410#lastPost

Started my own fab business recently check out the website  www.c4fabrication.com

also follow C4Fab on facebook for regular updates on projects. http://www.facebook.com/pages/C4-Fabrication/454285357953823

IronClad

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 635
  • Male Posts: 2,284
  • Member since Feb '05
  • Annihilation Fabrication
Re: thoughts on Trail Gear HD leaf springs?
« Reply #29 on: Jul 11, 2013, 03:48:47 PM »



Ironclad, the failed merger was a blessing.  It was a scam that Chris Geiger organized! 

Yes it was ! I have an extreme hatred for Chris. When i had found out he was going to work for marlin after being at all pro i spoke up and spoke my mind about him but was reasured that chris was such a good guy blahblahblahblah whatever.. we all know how that turned out though dont we.
Annihilation  Fabrication
Do you need a Hammer?
My build thingy... http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=39885.0
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Word hard, Keep your head in the game and if anyone gets in your way tell them you don't give a damn !

 
 
 
 
 

Related Topics

trail gear springs
36 Replies
12365 Views
Last post Sep 29, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
by Seeds
4 Replies
1292 Views
Last post Oct 30, 2006, 08:01:12 PM
by blackdiamond
0 Replies
1138 Views
Last post Oct 02, 2007, 04:47:49 PM
by BigMike
13 Replies
2820 Views
Last post May 20, 2008, 11:22:01 AM
by 79coyotefrg
3 Replies
1476 Views
Last post Sep 11, 2008, 01:49:58 PM
by lbhsbz