Why isn't my Engine Oil Still Gold?

[85_4RNR]

I got about 2000 miles on my synthetic Amsoil and its already dark brown and Im using an Amsoil EA oil filter.

The question is why is my dads 2000 Tacoma 3RZ oil still gold after 5000 miles?
He stubbornly claims its because he uses Toyota oil filters.

[86bobbedtoy]

your motor isnt as tight as his.
you probly have build up in the motor already.

flush it

[BUDDERS]

From the info I've read at a Toyota dealership I worked at: Toyota claimed that they were the only ones that made their oil filters with a one-way valve in them to keep all the oil from draining back into the block overnight.  This info was on display in the customer's lounge with a cut-away of a toyota filter vs. a Fram filter.  This was to help keep oil in the oil gallies for start up.  It makes sense to me to have a valve there, but this was 13 years ago and I'm not sure it they are the only ones who make them now.

This might explain your black oil issue but there are a lot of factors that could explain it.  He may drive it like an old man (like my dad) with little load on the engine which would result in lower cylinder surface and ring wear, resulting in less blow-by which is a big factor in making a engines oil black.  If you drive anything like me, a 33 year old tech who flogs the crap out of his motor and hauls trailers full of crap with a quad in the back of my truck doing 60mph up a 6% grade in 3rd gear, your going to see your engine oil turn black a lot faster. Granted, this is in my 2002 2wd 2rz tacoma - not sure if a 4wd 3rz can do that - but the engines are really similar.

[junya92toy]

It turns dark because it gets dirty!

[Sparkplug]

If you get the tuff guard fram filter, it has a silicone check valve that prevnts dry starts, just like the oem toyota filter, plus you can get the larger one, and hold more oil. Large one is 6 bucks at wal mart.

[Rocksurfer]

your motor isnt as tight as his.
you probly have build up in the motor already.

flush it

Also if you have just started using synthetic oil and have used conventional oil in the past there will be build up from the dino oil. As stated above your older engine may come into play here and if you do have an older engine with a lot of miles you are wasting your money on a full synthetic oil. Go with a high mileage blend or a high mileage conventional and save your $. If it were a newer engine the benefits of synthetic are excellent but an older high mileage engine there are none.

[hilux-1983]

I have the same issue. Not that it bothers me though.  I rebuilt my motor about 10k ago so it's good and tight. I have good compression and runs great.  I use only toyota filters. I'm also using Amzoil full synthetic racing 5/30. Just wanted to chime in and add my  wich contradicts the "because you have an old high mileage motor" claim. I don't know if I'm getting any better mileage or less wear or anything that amzoil claims, I do a lot of driving and have to change the oil so often. I switched to synthetic so that I don't have to change it so often.   

[PhantomD aka Zach]

it's not gold because the engine has old oil still in it... I have noticed that after 3 oil changes with mobile 1 full synth and a Purolator Pure 1 oil filter that my oil stays a golden color longer then when I used dino oil. it will always eventually turn black.

Diesel engines turn black almost instantly because of the soot from the combustion process, there is a similar situation with gas engines.


ALL DECENT OIL FILTERS HAVE A CHECK VALVE!!!!! may have not been true for old filters, but every modern oil filters have a check valve to try and prevent dry startup.

-Zach

[blackdiamond]

If you want some great information (actually too much) on oil and filters, visit the forum at www.bobistheoilguy.com.

There are two main things that turn oil dark in color: (1) the combustion process generates carbon that a portion of ends up in the oil, and (2) there can be deposits (think sludge) that can be present in an engine that either isn't properly maintained or has a mechanic issue (i.e. coolant leak, etc...).  I would suspect that it's possible for an motor that burns oil to result in dark oil.

Oil serves several purposes, the obvious one being lubrication, but a key function is to suspend particles in the oil that are too small for the filter to capture thus avoiding deposits from forming.

If you're oil stays clean it means that either your engine is clean or your oil isn't working.

My 2004 Sequoia has 101,000 miles on it currently, just over 10,000 miles on the oil and it looks nearly perfect on the dipstick.  The oil will be coming out as soon as I have time and will be sent for analysis to verify that it's still performing as designed.  I had an analysis on the last round after nearly 8,000 miles and it was still nearly perfect.

Toyota makes a great oil filter, especially for the price.  If you change your oil in the 3-5,000 range just about any filter will do the job.  If you want to run extended drains, larger capacity oil filters are a great idea.

From testing on BITOG forum, it looks to me like Mobil 1 filters, what I choose to run, out perform Amsoil Ea filters for up to 10,000 miles and then the Amsoil starts having better results.  This is a very general observation only.

If you want to run synthetics, Pennzoil Platinum is a great product at a reasonable price compared to other synthetics.  It seems to be good for at least 7,500 miles in nearly all applications.  Valvoline Maxlife Blend is a great oil for the price and can be used in anything.  I run it in my 89 4Runner that has about 25,000 miles on the motor.  I have some Pennzoil Platinum that's going in next because I got a jug for $5.

The Sequoia gets European Blend 0w-30 Castrol Syntec because it has both a BMW and VW Long Drain spec and can easily handle 10,000 mile changes in many applications.  Another good option is Mobil 1 Extended Performance (I've seen a test at 15,000 miles and it could have gone longer) that is easier to get.  The 0w-30 Syntec is only available at Autozone in most places.

As for you dad, tell him that there are plenty of particles in oil that are smaller than the filter can capture that will discolor the oil.  Put a drop of your oil on a white sheet of paper and let it dry for a day and see how clean it looks once the particles clump together.

[blackdiamond]

p.s. in my opinion, you're wasting your money on Amsoil oil and Ea filters (I've run the filters).  They are great products, but not enough better than other brands to justify the cost or difficulty to get.  If you actually do long drain intervals then you may be justified.  Not many people go beyond 10,000 miles and there are Syntec, Mobil 1 and Pennzoil products that can often handle that many miles and the Mobil 1 filters are about half the price and there's no definitive proof that one is significantly better than another.  7,500 miles with Pennzoil Platinum and a Toyota filter is probably a nearly perfect combination for most people.  I want to push for the extra miles because my wife has a long commute and I don't want to change the oil every two months when I don't have to.

[YotaNate]

I broke in my new 22r on Castrol 10-40 Conventional.  Changed it at 100, 500, 1000.  Now I change it every 3,000 Miles with Mobil 1 10-30 and It has always had a new K&N filter with every change.  Maybe I'm changing the Mobil 1 to often?  For what it's worth I have maybe 8,000 miles on my 22r and the oil doesn't stay as clean as the wife's 4Runner with 186,000 miles on it.  She gets Castrol 10-40 every 3,00 miles.

Nate

[85_4RNR]

Thanks for all the replies guys.
As for wasting my money? No. Amsoil is by far the best. It retains its viscosity, doesnt burn off and just overall protects the best for a 4 stroke application.

Spend a little extra for a WIX or Toyota filter instead of a Fram.

[-Jake-]

You choose Amsoil based on what? That fact that you've poured it in and your motor hasn't popped yet?

Amsoil is MultiLevel Marketing at it's finest.

Ever notice how many "engine oil comparison test" websites are sponsored by Amsoil? Oddly, they all proclaim Amsoil the winner by wide margin. Hmm. I wonder why that is?

Ever notice how much advertising Amsoil does? Their trademark, "The first in synthetics" used to be stated on their website. Now, it's "the first API rated synthetic engine oil". That first one is awfully misleading.
I'm betting that soon they'll be the "first in automotive air fresheners and Rust Preventer with Fish Attractant" since they make those too.

I'll never buy engine oil from a manufacturer that sells vitamin supplements and fertilizer alongside their "main" product.

Even their own product testimonials page is absurd:
"Practice Sled Survives on AMSOIL - Racing
"...I've checked bearing, bushings, gears, chains and all internal engine parts. Other than a little scuffing on the intake side of the piston skirt, nothing wore, no extra play in bearings and everything was within tolerance. I credit this to AMSOIL lubricants. No other products have been used in this sled."

A little piston scuffing? Eh, that's no big deal. AMSOIL ROCKS!!!!
Yeah, right.

Oh, and Amsoil gained NOTHING on the dyno.

I'll never run it.

Royal Purple and Mobil 1 will always be in my crankcase.  If Mobil 1 is good enough for the factory for Vipers and Corvettes its good enough for me.  Also I wouldn't run a fram filter on my lawnmower let alone my beloved Corvette or Toyotas

[blackdiamond]

I don't think the Amsoil is a bad product, but it's not possible to prove that it outperforms other synthetics in automobile engine applications unless the oil change interval is pushed in the 15-20k range.  Amsoil contains a lot of detergents and is blended with the intent of going a lot of miles.

There is one documented comparison online using a 2000ish V8 Camaro.  They ran Amsoil and Mobil 1 until they failed a UOA.  The Mobil 1 lasted for 18,000 miles, but they said if it were not for the test they would have changed it closer to 10,000 miles.  The Amsoil lasted for the full duration of the test, but had increased in viscosity enough to make a significant impact on fuel economy.  This was confirmed by gaining it all back as soon as they changed the oil.  Oil thins and then thickens with extended use so I guess you could argue that it holds it grade.

I had a Mobil 1 oil sample tested by an independent tribiologists that is well known in the automotive world and at the time his opinion was that he wouldn't run Mobil 1 if someone paid him to.  He recommended Pennzoil Platinum as the best overall off the shelf oil.  On BITOG, there are several members that suspect that the new Mobil 1 EP is essentially an older formula that was brought back after people noticed a sharp decline in performance.  Ironically, Royal Purple isn't a fan favorite on BITOG either.

The reality is that if you change your oil every 3 to 5k, you can probably use Walmart oil in most applications and will never know the difference.  Oil related failures are extrememly unlikely unless it's simply not changed.

If I were going for a botique oil, Redline would probably be my choice since it's the only Group V synthetic, but it doesn't perform well for long drain intervals.  This is why I'm running Castrol Syntec 0w-30 (nearly a 40wt oil at operating temperature) German Castrol, it has long drain capability.  Mobil 1 EP would be my next choice but I've already invested money in several rounds of testing to "prove" my 10,000 OCI.  As an FYI, Pennzoil Platinum was still going strong at 7,500 miles before I switched, but several people have shown that it seems to "die" at about 10,000 in most applications.

Here's a basic rule of thumb without testing and assuming a properly running engine:

Conventional Oil - 5,000 miles
Blend Oils - 6-7,500 miles
Synthetics - 7,500 to 10,000 miles

This is reasonable for most applications, but having one test done to confirm would be the safe way to go.  www.blackstonelabs.com

By the way, Mobil 1 filters often test better than Amsoil for up to 10,000 miles and are the same as a K&N Filter.  Also, other than the cheapest orange can Fram, the brand will perform adequately and some do fine with the orange can too.

[hilux-1983]

Good job Blackdiamond! I enjoyed reading your response especially with credible evidence rather than a childish rant over "mine is better because I said so" with a touch of kicking, screaming, rolling around on the floor blowing snot bubbles.   

[YotaNate]

^  LOL


Nate

[-Jake-]

Hardly a childish rant .  If you want to run amsoil because you think its better go for it.  I'll keep my mobil 1 

[hilux-1983]

^  LOL


Nate

I knew you'd like that Nate

Hardly a childish rant .  If you want to run amsoil because you think its better go for it.  I'll keep my mobil 1  

Bro, I'm just givin you a hard time. I couldn't resist.  For what it's worth, I run mobil 1 syn in my 3rds, trans and trans case. I saved it up at the dealership from all of the vettes I used to work on.  Like I said though, I switch to it because of the looooong change intervals

[85_4RNR]

Good job Blackdiamond! I enjoyed reading your response especially with credible evidence rather than a childish rant over "mine is better because I said so" with a touch of kicking, screaming, rolling around on the floor blowing snot bubbles.  

[blackdiamond]

Here's a bit of a correction on my previous posts.  I pulled my used oil analysis (UOA) reports for the last two oil change intervals (OCI) and I didn't go as far on the Pennzoil Platinum as I had remembered.  Here's some of the results:

Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30, 6,092 miles, remaining TBN = 4.4

Castrol Syntec 0w-30 (European Formula), 8,646 miles, remaining TBN = 5.5

TBN is the Total Base Number and is the test used to determine the remaining oil life.  TBN is essentially a measure of the remaining base in the oil to neutralize acids that form in the oil.  Blackstone considers anything above 2 to be acceptable.  The Syntec starts with a higher number and obviously has more left.  This is part of what makes it great for long OCIs.

[Plekto]

My oil has always turned dark in a couple of days, no matter what I drive.  I suspect a lot of it has to do with the quality of your air filter(and I live in So Cal, so smog in=black oil out).  Of course, high-flow air filters will make it a dozen times worse.  Now, on an old engine or if you are running in the desert or a place where your normal filter may clog up, it's no big deal.  But I've seen pictures of excessive wear on newer tighter tolerance engines from them.  Just stick to the normal ones.

[gtoyonrocks]

I have noticed that even when you change your oil or drain the engine of its oil, if you pull the pan off there will still be oil left in the bottom of the pan. I have bought several toyota's and had the same issue until I pulled the pan off the truck and cleaned it. After cleaning if if you change your oil regularly and your engine is tight it should stay gold from oil change to oil change if it's done regularly.

[blackdiamond]

I have noticed that even when you change your oil or drain the engine of its oil, if you pull the pan off there will still be oil left in the bottom of the pan. I have bought several toyota's and had the same issue until I pulled the pan off the truck and cleaned it. After cleaning if if you change your oil regularly and your engine is tight it should stay gold from oil change to oil change if it's done regularly.

The oil that I drained out of my Sequoia with about 10,100 miles on it appeared fairly golden on the dip stick, but the sample bottle that I collected for analysis was pretty dark.  A properly working oil should suspend some particles to prevent deposits from forming, this is normal and expected.  It doesn't have to turn black, but a properly working oil shouldn't look at clean coming out as it does going in.  If it does, it's either not working properly or you're changing it way to often.

Pennzoil Platinum and now Pennzoil Ultra seem to be very effective in cleaning up an engine.  Synthetics, in general, do a pretty good job.  Another option is a product called auto-rx that is a product that get great reviews and does a slower version of what seafoam is claimed to do.  The problem with Seafoam like products is that they can dislodge gunk and clog things up.

[gtoyonrocks]

Interesting.... I'm running a sythetic oil right now. I know that I change my oil more ofter then required. In my rock crawler I change my oil once a season but I'm running propane and it come out gold everytime.

[blackdiamond]

Interesting.... I'm running a sythetic oil right now. I know that I change my oil more ofter then required. In my rock crawler I change my oil once a season but I'm running propane and it come out gold everytime.

Once a season probably isn't very many miles in a trail rig and it sounds like it's running well.  I don't know anything about how propane effects oil.

As I've said before, I wouldn't change synthetic oil before at least 5,000 miles if you want to be very conservative and you should be able to do closer to 7,500 miles without any issues.

[gtoyonrocks]

Yea, propane burns a lot cleaner. If you tear down a propane engine there won't be any carbon build up or anything. It's super clean burning.