lockers?spool?welded? pros and cons?? help

[Makohon]

could you guys give me the pros and cons about welded diff, spools, and lockers? i would think that why dont you just go with a spool if your diff is always locked and why get an expensive locker to do what a spool can do?? is it much weaker?? whats your guys opinion about the diffrent locking options? later on!!

[WHITE_TRASH]

Im of the school of cheap skates, weld the rear and put a selectable in the front.  The money you save by welding the rear makes up for the $ spent on the front.  Id leave the front unlocked until you need it then once you make the hard parts of the trail unlock it once again.  Parts last a lot longer that way.

[BigMike]

I know most people are using an "always on" locker (welded, spool, detroit, etc) but here are the cons about using them, especially if your truck is a daily driver:

Dangerous while turning. In slippery conditions while turning, if you get on the gas, it's likely to spin both rear tires causing you to over steer. In good traction conditions while turning, if you get on the gas, it's likely to push the vehicle straight causing massive understeer and running you right off the road. Not good if your in the mountains and trees are near the shoulders.

Horrible for tires. This is maybe the most obvious. We all know that when you are making a turn, the inside track has a smaller radius than the outside track - that's why 100% of all passenger cars use open differentials. But once its locked, the inner tire is forced to travel at the same speed as the outter, and the tire slips on the surface and causes alot of wear to the treads.

Now this is maybe the biggest reason why I hate "always on" lockers: Did you know that only about 10% of the time while accelerating is the torque between the two rear axles equal? And because our roads are "crowned" to allow for water run-off, the roads are uneven. This means that the torque transfer will be favoring the low side (In America its the passengers side) of the road, and so when the torque trys to move to just the passengers tire, the locker prevents this from happening, and what you get is a vehicle that "pulls" from side to side depending on the road surface and the amount of torque your engine is pushing through the drivetrain.

This is even worse when you're in 4WD high and your front hubs are locked, because the front axles are of different axle lengths, not only is the torque always different during accelerating, its also different during braking. So when you speed up, the locker will equalize the torque, and since the drivers side has a shorter axle length, it will pull to the left, and while braking it will pull to the right. And this is also in combination with the rear end pulling to the right if you are driving on a left-hand road like in America, and now you've got a really unstable vehicle........!

I've driven customer vehicles with detroits and I HATE IT. Actually its worse with detroits than with spools/welded because the locker is "deciding" what to slip and what not to slip. So you get funny impulses in the torque of the drivetrain while turning and on the gas, and its just sucks in my opinion.

I know its a bit more to have "switchable" lockers like Air, Electric, or Cable, but MAN its a lot better in my opinion. Also, with the switchable type, It is fun to travel into a trail with both lockers turned off (open-open) and then trying to get as far as possible with out using them. Seriously, because we are now able to gear so low with a Crawler, you can get a lot further without needing lockers. So on the Rubicon in Marlin's truck, I only use the lockers about 8 times, and its only when I am stuck with no traction front or rear, and often I only need the rear locker to get me unstuck. We hardly ever use the front. Its like a last resort.

Also, another problem with a always on locker in the front and with the front hubs engaged (in 2WD or 4WD), it is very difficult to make turns. This is especially noticeable when you take a large tire 35"+, air it down, now you've got alot of tread on the ground, and you try to make a corner. The locker will prevent the inside tire from spinning slower and will push the vehicle into a wide turn (aka understeer) and its very difficult to maneuver the rig.

Try to do a cone slalom with a locker in the front with 10psi on 35s on a dirt road. It aint gonna happen

BigMike

[FIREBALL]

Well put Mike. The other thing you will notice with a spool or detroit style locker is that if your tire pressure is not exactly equal it will cause some major handling issues. If one tire is lower than the other and you get on the throttle it will push the truck one way, say to the right, then when you get off the throttle you go the other way (left).

[WHITE_TRASH]

I have a deep seated hatred for automatic lockers in the rear of rigs.  They absolutely suck 99% of the time.  They act just as mike described, by unlocking and locking whenever they feel like it.  It makes them a total bastid in the rain and snow.  I actually like spools but I have seen what Mike is descibing.  People that dont understand how they act around corners or in the rain always lose it and spin out.  But people that have driven on a spool for awhile get to understand the characteristics and live with them. 

[Skinny_Pedal]

i talked to people that have bought detroits and arb;s for the rear and wish they would have just bought a spool. know few people with the weld job and love it. 1st week its interesting then u understand how it works and love it

[Makohon]

whitetrash said weld up the rear and put a selectable in the front, in my way of thinking it would make more sense to put the selectable in the rear and welded in the front? why i think this? well because 99% of the time your on the road and with a fully locked rear the tires will wear horribly and the traction in the wet will be horrible and dangerous, so wouldnt it be better to get the selectable in the rear so you can turn it on and off whenever you go on the trail or the road.... and since you hardly use 4wd on the road besides snow why dont you just lock up the front fully? maybe im missing somthin but.... help me out guys!!! yes my spelling sux but deal with it!! thanx guys!! oh and much thanx to BigMike!!! and WT

[WHITE_TRASH]

All I can say is weld the front diff up and drive it.  You'll be putting it in the rear very shortly!  Ive ran with the front welded and It really sucks.  Where as ShawnB has arb's front and rear in his truck and Ive ran it just as I explained and it works great.

[Makohon]

thanx WT!

[BigMike]

That does make since to weld up the font since you'll only be noticing any problems with it when you are in 4WD, and apart from WT's great advice, I think the bad thing now about welding the front is that you will have to be extra careful while turning in the rocks to not break a birfield.....

[FIREBALL]

You'll be lucky to be able to turn at all with the front welded. Steering would suck ass, you'd be out unlocking a hub trying to get through tight places, then breaking the other birf cause all the torque is going to one side.

[WHITE_TRASH]

My truck was welded in the front with no power steering for about a year.  You really cant turn much even while unlocked on one side.  The ackerman angle vs. driven wheel is not consistent so it binds a helluvalot. 

[The_Blue_Coyote]

Front:
Open or selectable (ARB, Elocker). You can disengage it inorder to turn. 95% of my wheeling is done with the front locker (an ARB) off.
Rear:
Welded - too bootie fab for me. Spend $150 and get a spool
Spool - great for an off road only truck. Very perdictable, very strong,
EZ locker, LA loclker, etc - a low budget version of a Detroit - okay for mild wheeling IMHO. Same goes for Tru Tracks.
Detroit - fine for a street driven truck once you learn how to drive with one.  Not reccomended for a daily commuter rig. But have logged over 50k with one.
Selectable - ARB, elocker - the best of both worlds - locked when you need it (10% of the time), open the rest of the time. If you can live the the gear ratio, a new Toyota elocker third is the best bang for the $.

[CTENG in KS]

I have a deep seated hatred for automatic lockers in the rear of rigs.  They absolutely suck 99% of the time.  They act just as mike described, by unlocking and locking whenever they feel like it.  It makes them a total bastid in the rain and snow.  I actually like spools but I have seen what Mike is descibing.  People that dont understand how they act around corners or in the rain always lose it and spin out.  But people that have driven on a spool for awhile get to understand the characteristics and live with them. 

Amen, perfectly put, took me about a day to get used to the welded rear end, now, even in the rain, I wouldn't have it any other way.  Very predictable...it will however, require my purchasing a daily driver before it starts to snow.

[SEAN_at_TLT]

Check out this article we wrote, it is based towards Toyota's and should more than answer all of your questions. The first section is about gearing and the second is about types of differentials.
Introduction To Gearing & Diffs

[Northern Runner]

Well put Mike..I run with a welded rear and open front. i like the welded rear, I find it much more predictable than a locker especially in the snow. Mine is also a daily driver.

[Huhwhye]

I am torn on this subject also.  I run lockers front and rear.  On the street it handles fine, been driving it like this for 10 years and 80-90,000 miles.  I think its fun in the rain, but I also drive muscle cars so hanging the tail out is fun for me.  But like said above, there are things that suck about it.  You get used to it.  The rear locker was the very first thing I did to my truck, so I don't know it any other way.

I like the idea of a selectable locker, but other than the fact that I can't afford them I am a firm believer in simple is better.  That goes double for when you take yourself out in the boonies.  Why, because you don't want to be half way to Egypt when something breaks and you don't have a replacement.  I have seen electric lockers 2 blow up, in the same truck, same trip, at different parts of the trail.  They were Eatons I think (don't remember), it was in a Ford Full - size.  He had to be towed back to the road.  That rearend grenaded, the spider gears were sticking out of the diff cover.  I am also nervous about breaking the air lines, or having an electrical problem.  Strong and simple I think is ideal.  My truck is neither, but I am too poor to change it yet, its a work in progress.

Yeah its a PITA to turn my truck sometimes, but I don't have to worry that my diff isn't locked.

[84toy]

 I'm a cheap skate also,welded the rear,a month later Said flop it and welded the front,been running them for 3 year's,with no breakage other than a couple birf's but would'nt have it any other way. Daily driver,winter,summer,wheelin,moab trip's,fishin,huntin you name it.....

[Hyena]

I have a detriot in the rear.  I bought it becasue it came already installed in the axle with 5.29's.  I really don't even now it is there in the rain.  Can't feel it spin or anything.  I can hear it on the road though.  I doesn't wear down the tires like a welded dif does.  I ran a lock rite in the front for a little while.  Then the pins broke and i took it out.  I can steer a lot better plus don't have to worry about birfields breaking.  If i had a choice i would have ran welded rear and then an ARB front.  But now i would rather just go 60 rear and 44 front.

[BLACKDOG]

20k on my detroit in the rear, and It doesn't bother me at all.  It just takes getting used too, just like driving with a new clutch, or anything else.  I havent found my tires to wear noticebaly different than in the front, and the steering and slippage just takes getting used to.
What abot spools though?? I know very little about them.  I know waffler wants to lock up the rear of his truck and he cant afford the detroit.  Would a spool work for his needs.  It is his daily driver so would that be a good idea??

[SWAMPER]

*If you can live the the gear ratio*, a new Toyota elocker third is the best bang for the $.

What do you mean by this?

[BigMike]

*If you can live the the gear ratio*, a new Toyota elocker third is the best bang for the $.

What do you mean by this?

Because they are only available in 4.11:1 or 4.88:1 - STOCK - but you can change the ratio if you need 5.29:1

[SWAMPER]

Oh so in order to have an E-locker I would need to change gearing...man that sucks thats one of the reasons I dont get bigger meats cause gearing the truck woulld come out to like a grand

[Makohon]

thanx everyone!! found ur info to be very helpful!! many of you were concerned about the birfs breaking with welded difs in front, but i did not mention that i am going to be running d60f/d70r so i dont gotta worry as much with that setup with spools/welded difs than with the birfs but thanx again and happy wheelin!!

[FIREBALL]

Swampy, your only runnin 31's. The 4.10's would be fine. Shoot, the 4.88's would be awsome, and you could still run 35's without having to change gears.

[freds40]

I had been running true trac in the back, ARB up front and then decided to weld the rear to have full time engagement. THe welded rear is great for traction, but a lot of times I noticed I was getting traction when I didn't want it. If I were going down an obstacle and trying to steer to a spot I wanted to put a front tire, almost every time, the rear would push the front so much that I'd have to back and screw around if I needed my tire in a particular spot. Turning is just more involved when you are welded or spooled. Also it takes the Toy's already crappy turning radius and just makes it complete $hit from the rear trying to push so much. I had a lot more back ups welded than I ever did with th etrue trac.

[WHITE_TRASH]

No kidding you had more backups with a welded over a tru-trac!  Talk about apples and orranges, tru-tracs are a torque biasing gear driven limited slip not a locker at all.

[Makohon]

ok well this is probably an obvious ? but what is the difference between a detroit and a spool/welded, arent detroits always locked? if so y not get the cheaper spool/welded?? thanx !!

[SWAMPER]

I think the detroits un-lock when ever you let go of the gas...something a spool/welded wount do

[freds40]

Detroits are torque sensing. If you give it gas, it locks. If you are on the road and are coming into a corner witha detroit, if you coast the corner it's nice and quiet and controlled, if you are powering through the corner, you will have tires squealing and the rear end trying to pass the front. (over exagerated but ya get the point)