Author Topic: timing and fuel problems - need help (Read 16212 times)

Zoomschwortz · « **Reply #60 on:** Jul 05, 2007, 02:56:17 PM »

That ground wire that is on the firewall, should be bolted to the head. My 89 has a hook on the drivers side of the engine near the firewall. Just unbolt the hook and put the ground wire between the hook and the bolt.

Do you have a volt/ohm meter? If not, you can buy a cheap one for about $10 and then you can check the TPS setting.

Have you done a compression check on the engine?
The idea of getting it to run so rich that it blows black smoke is a little concerning since an over rich condition for a long period of time will ruin your O2 sensor, not to mention that it can wash your cylinder walls down and cause a lot of cylinder wear.

If you could get those pictures posted like 79coyotefrg asked for that would also help. Make sure the piston is at TDC. The easiest way to do that is, turn the engine over with a ratchet and 19mm socket with all of the plugs removed and use a small screwdriver or a chopstick or something small that will fit into the spark plug hole of #1 cylinder as you come up on the compression stroke. When you feel the piston touch the stick or whatever you use, slowly, turn the engine over and when the piston stops moving, snap a picture of the pulley and cam gear. Also make sure that both rockers on #1 cylinder are loose.

Take care.
Ken

89toy · « **Reply #61 on:** Jul 05, 2007, 03:16:24 PM »

All of the cylinders were about 160-170 2 months ago...LC said they shoud be in that range so I don't think anything is wrong there. I bought a ohm/volt meter the other day but I still need to figure out how the thing works...and I am not sure if I am using it right or where the dial should be...do you think that the TPS is bad too, or do you think it is something else? I will be camping tomorrow night so the pick of the gear will probably be up on Sunday. And just to let ya'll know, I was able to keep 70 the other day on the highway...it still can't pull a hill without dropping a crud load of speed (or even think about passing someone), but it is slowly getting better to what it was before (timing helped). Thanks guys.

dcg9381 · « **Reply #62 on:** Jul 06, 2007, 01:24:56 PM »

So you bought a crate motor from LC.
I don't think you installed it.. Whomever installed it should have been in charge of timing it correctly.. Timing is pretty basic stuff and if they switched the distributor and all that other stuff over for you, it's PART of that service.

The bad news is that strokers don't like factory EFI. I wonder if LC told you this when you ordered that thing for $4-5k? There is an aftermarket (LC Engineering) solution - but it's another $1500 on top of it.

There are various ways to tweek the existing EFI, like manipulating the resistance of the engine temperature sensor... This is a patch, better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will work out well for ya..
Get the timing worked out, all the engine codes straight, and then let's talk tuning...

I'm in Austin, TX, btw..

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #63 on:** Jul 06, 2007, 02:57:17 PM »

Quote from: dcg9381 on Jul 06, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

So you bought a crate motor from LC.
The bad news is that strokers don't like factory EFI. I wonder if LC told you this when you ordered that thing for $4-5k? There is an aftermarket (LC Engineering) solution - but it's another $1500 on top of it.

somebody at LC musta really pee'd in your cheerios

Quote

There are various ways to tweek the existing EFI, like manipulating the resistance of the engine temperature sensor... This is a patch, better than nothing, but I'm not sure it will work out well for ya..
Get the timing worked out, all the engine codes straight, and then let's talk tuning...

I'm in Austin, TX, btw..

im a weber guy myself but i have heard tell of a mod to the afm where you adjust it a couple of teeth just like the cam timing, do you know of this ?? Doug isnt it ??

Zoomschwortz · « **Reply #64 on:** Jul 07, 2007, 06:23:38 AM »

Quote from: 79coyotefrg on Jul 06, 2007, 02:57:17 PM

im a weber guy myself but i have heard tell of a mod to the afm where you adjust it a couple of teeth just like the cam timing, do you know of this ?? Doug isnt it ??

There are several postings on the net for adjusing the AFM, but, you need to be careful and not get carried away. I have read of some people that went too rich and washed down the cylinder walls and ruined their engine.

89toy · « **Reply #65 on:** Jul 07, 2007, 02:53:58 PM »

The AFM was adjusted...but not very well. So I got a stock AFM and I am waiting to adjust it (just want to get everything right...and if it seems to be running lean, I can use the Pro-Fuel injection to adjust it). When the motor was ordered the EFI was also rebuilt by LC (from what all the receipts tell me); so hopefully everything was rebuilt to match the motor. I should have that pic up soon (of the cam gear).

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #66 on:** Jul 07, 2007, 03:06:30 PM »

if the efi was set up,by them then yea its been done

89toy · « **Reply #67 on:** Jul 08, 2007, 12:18:08 PM »

it's pretty cruddy outside today so I will have to get the pic up tomorrow.

89toy · « **Reply #68 on:** Jul 18, 2007, 10:48:18 AM »

ok, as you can tell, I have not had time to take off the cover. I am still having that same problem with keeping it started in the morning or after it has been sitting for a while. It will start just fine, run well for a few seconds..then die. It takes about 4 of these tries and then it will run fine (might have already gone over this, but just thought I would say it again). Some of my buddy's were saying there is a "flap" that keeps the gas from draining out of the motor...is that true? I started it for them and they said that it seemed to be a fuel delivery problem. What do you guys think? It does run fine after I start it up a few times.

Zoomschwortz · « **Reply #69 on:** Jul 18, 2007, 03:31:09 PM »

Quote from: 89toy on Jul 18, 2007, 10:48:18 AM

ok, as you can tell, I have not had time to take off the cover. I am still having that same problem with keeping it started in the morning or after it has been sitting for a while. It will start just fine, run well for a few seconds..then die. It takes about 4 of these tries and then it will run fine (might have already gone over this, but just thought I would say it again). Some of my buddy's were saying there is a "flap" that keeps the gas from draining out of the motor...is that true? I started it for them and they said that it seemed to be a fuel delivery problem. What do you guys think? It does run fine after I start it up a few times.

When you first turn on your ignition, the fuel pump should kick in and the engine should start. I just went through this on my engine.

If you suspect a fuel delivery, problem try this.

With the engine cold, use a jumper to activate you fuel pump before starting your engine and then start up the engine. If it now runs fine, then you have a problem with a sensor, mine was the AFR meter, but it could be something else too.

Does the engine die even if you give it gas or only when you have your foot off the gas?

Ken

89toy · « **Reply #70 on:** Jul 18, 2007, 08:25:11 PM »

It will die if you give it gas...and actually, if you give it just a little, it will chug real bad until you let off. If you give it too much...well...it dies. When I first start it and have the RPM at around 2 grand, it kind of putt, putt, putt's until you let off. Then it is up to the motor what happens next - sometimes it then dies, and sometimes it will run ok (for a little while...until it dies). But on about the 5th start, it will do the putt, putt (when on the gas) kinda thing and then run fine. I will sometimes give it a little gas (which then the putt, putt thing happens) and then I will give it half throttle; putt's for a little while and then the rpm's shoot up and it runs fine (this is of course on about the 4th or 5th start). but after I have run it for a while (driving through town or something) the next start works just fine; it only happens when it has been sitting for a while (over 4 hours).

89toy · « **Reply #71 on:** Jul 19, 2007, 07:28:30 AM »

so I gave it time today to build fuel pressure...I left the key to on, walked around to the fuel tank but could not here the fuel pump (I am not sure if it is like a chevy and has the same type of whining sound). I must have waited about 3-4 minutes. I turned it on and it did not die. All it did was rev to 2 grand (because it was cold) and then drop down to where it sounded like it was going to die...but it didn't. It did this about 4-5 times and then ran fine. Is there something wrong with my fuel pump? It is a pretty expensive part so how can I find out? Would a clogged fuel filter do this?

Zoomschwortz · « **Reply #72 on:** Jul 19, 2007, 09:33:14 PM »

Quote from: 89toy on Jul 19, 2007, 07:28:30 AM

so I gave it time today to build fuel pressure...I left the key to on, walked around to the fuel tank but could not here the fuel pump (I am not sure if it is like a chevy and has the same type of whining sound). I must have waited about 3-4 minutes. I turned it on and it did not die. All it did was rev to 2 grand (because it was cold) and then drop down to where it sounded like it was going to die...but it didn't. It did this about 4-5 times and then ran fine. Is there something wrong with my fuel pump? It is a pretty expensive part so how can I find out? Would a clogged fuel filter do this?

Have you tried running a jumper in the diagnostic box for the fuel pump?

If you run a jumper and then turn on the ignition, you should have no trouble hearing the fuel pump as long as the pump isn't froze up. For my truck, the jumper goes on FP and +B and as long as it is jumpered and the ignition is on, the pump will keep running.

If you can hear the pump running while it is jumpered, try starting the truck. If the truck now runs, it sounds like you have the same problem my truck just had and that was a bad AFM.

From the best that I could tell by looking at the wiring schematics, there are only 3 things that prevent a good pump from running while the engine is trying to run and for my 1989 22RE it was the EFI Main Relay or the Circuit Opening Relay and the last was the AFM.

To check the AFM on my truck, I had to remove the electrical connector from the AFM to expose 7 terminals.

As you are looking at the 7 terminals on the AFM, I had to connect my ohm meter to the 2nd and 3rd terminals from the right. These terminals are called Vs and E2 and when the ohm meter is connected to these 2 terminals you should have 200-600 ohms. My truck had 0 and after replacing my AFM, it purred like a kitten.

I got my best deal at Schucks by going on line to the Shucks website and then I took that information to the local Shucks store where they met that price. It saved me over a hundred bucks compared to me just walking off the street and buying one.

I hope this helps.
Ken

Zoomschwortz · « **Reply #73 on:** Jul 19, 2007, 10:02:12 PM »

Quote from: 89toy on Jul 18, 2007, 10:48:18 AM

ok, as you can tell, I have not had time to take off the cover. I am still having that same problem with keeping it started in the morning or after it has been sitting for a while. It will start just fine, run well for a few seconds..then die. It takes about 4 of these tries and then it will run fine (might have already gone over this, but just thought I would say it again). Some of my buddy's were saying there is a "flap" that keeps the gas from draining out of the motor...is that true? I started it for them and they said that it seemed to be a fuel delivery problem. What do you guys think? It does run fine after I start it up a few times.

I just reread the entire thread and after seeing this and the fact that your AFM has been opened up for adjusting, I bet your AFM is shot.

If you jumper your fuel pump like I told you to do in the previous post, and it runs, I have little doubt that fuel switch portion of your AFM is dead or dieing. The longer mine sat, the worse it was.

This is the best price I found and if you don't have a Schucks in your area, you can mail order it. http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=A1C&MfrPartNumber=7420055&PartType=473&PTSet=A

Like I said before, if you jumper the fuel pump and the engine starts to run, my bet is on the AFM. I don't know what your money situation is, but, considering the money that is in that stroker engine right now, I wouldn't risk using a used or old AFM. I would bite the bullet and get a new one and hope that you haven't damaged your engine and I would also be very carefull when you use that rheostat to adjust the richness of your engine. If you can adjust it to the point of seeing smoke out the exhaust, you are washing your cylinders down with gas and are damaging the O2 sensor as well.

Take care and I hope this will be of some help.
Ken

89toy · « **Reply #74 on:** Jul 20, 2007, 06:27:26 AM »

Thanks man, when I get back to town today I will try and jump it. I had an AFM that was opened, but I switched it with one that had never been opened (but it was an older part). The truck didn't start doing this until about 2 weeks after i installed the new (old) AFM. I will check both tonight and let you know what is going on.

89toy · « **Reply #75 on:** Jul 21, 2007, 03:26:56 PM »

how much did you get your AFM for...is the price that is in the link the price you paid for yours? I was about to post how I should jump the fuel pump before I read your previous post

. I actually wish the fuel pump is bad since it costs less than the AFM

. I will DEFINITLY try jumping it tomorrow morning. It is getting worse...I feel it wanting to die every now and then on the highway. Also, is there anything on the web that will tell me the spots on the diagnostic box? I mean...the points that you told me to jump it at...which ones are they in the box?

Zoomschwortz · « **Reply #76 on:** Jul 21, 2007, 07:06:55 PM »

Quote from: 89toy on Jul 21, 2007, 03:26:56 PM

how much did you get your AFM for...is the price that is in the link the price you paid for yours? I was about to post how I should jump the fuel pump before I read your previous post . I actually wish the fuel pump is bad since it costs less than the AFM . I will DEFINITLY try jumping it tomorrow morning. It is getting worse...I feel it wanting to die every now and then on the highway. Also, is there anything on the web that will tell me the spots on the diagnostic box? I mean...the points that you told me to jump it at...which ones are they in the box?

I paid $229.
As far as the place to jump goes.
If you are standing at the passenger fender, facing the side of the engine.
Open the cover on the small diagnostic box, and in the top of the cover it will list each of the small terminals. You need to jump +B and Fp.

As you are facing the diagnostic box, +B is the bottom (closest to you) left hand terminal and Fp is the top (farthest from you) left hand terminal. Both terminals are as far left as you can go with 1 terminal between them.

Use the same jumper that you used for your timing. This should only take a minute or two and you will know if the pump is bad.

As far as wanting to die on the highway, in earlier post's it sounded like you were having trouble getting it to run at all.

89toy · « **Reply #77 on:** Jul 21, 2007, 08:43:27 PM »

Yeah, I am having trouble getting it to run when at first start up...after I finally get past all the starting and dieing it runs well. Until today...it is now (from what it feels like) doing the same thing on the highway that it does in initial start up...feels like it wants to die...loses all power and hitting the gas makes it worse...until remarkably it runs fine again.

89toy · « **Reply #78 on:** Jul 22, 2007, 09:17:13 AM »

so I jumped the fuel pump this morning...I could hear the pump but I had to crawl under the truck to hear it...should I have been able to hear it by just standing next to the truck? It started by having a whine that I could hear from kneeling next to my rock slider...but then it went away in about 2 seconds and got REAL quiet. I left the jumper on and the truck still had the same problem that I have without it...took 5 starts to finally get it to run this time (a little more than usual, but it ran fine after I started it numerous time...like it was doing before I jumped the fuel pump)...anybody know how I can put a video with a sound clip on the forum?

Zoomschwortz · « **Reply #79 on:** Jul 22, 2007, 09:54:32 AM »

Quote from: 89toy on Jul 22, 2007, 09:17:13 AM

so I jumped the fuel pump this morning...I could hear the pump but I had to crawl under the truck to hear it...should I have been able to hear it by just standing next to the truck? It started by having a whine that I could hear from kneeling next to my rock slider...but then it went away in about 2 seconds and got REAL quiet. I left the jumper on and the truck still had the same problem that I have without it...took 5 starts to finally get it to run this time (a little more than usual, but it ran fine after I started it numerous time...like it was doing before I jumped the fuel pump)...anybody know how I can put a video with a sound clip on the forum?

If you could hear the pump running and still have the same problem, that eliminates the fuel pump portion of the AFM but doesn't eliminate the rest of the possible AFM problems that can be checked at the AFM with a volt/ohm meter.

It sounds like you should check you fuel pressure. Too bad you don't have a Toyota field service manual. The FSM will take you step by step on how to test everything. For testing the fuel pressure I was lucky enough to get a spare Cold Start fuel fitting and attached it with the fuel pressure gauge to the Cold Start location. You could have a bad pump or bad filter. It is hard to tell without checking your pressure.

89toy · « **Reply #80 on:** Jul 22, 2007, 10:25:23 AM »

I bought a fuel filter today and will be replacing it to see if that might be the problem...if it is not I will probably try and find an FSM or go to a buddy of mine to try and figure out the fuel pressure...would you know what it should be at?

89toy · « **Reply #81 on:** Jul 22, 2007, 05:13:32 PM »

I replaced the fuel filter and checked the AFM...AFM was at about 225 ohms. And the filter didn't really help much. I am going to go back to the tps and check that again just in case I screwed up. I will also try and check my fuel pressure soon.

89toy · « **Reply #82 on:** Jul 23, 2007, 02:06:04 PM »

ok, just wanted to let ya'll know...I have just called LC and they were actually very helpful

. The guy could not pin point anything exact over the phone, but he gave me a number to someone that works with them on tuning their motors. I told him that I can only go about 65-70mph on the highway and he was appauled. He said the motor should be pushing close to 200hp and it was not at all running right. He also said that I should be able to floor it and feel a lot of power on take off...all said and done...I placed a call to the guy he recommended and I am now starting to save for a road trip to Tucson to get the truck dyno'd, tested, and completely fixed and tuned

. I figure if this motor is worth so much, might as well get it professionally tuned

. I will let everybody know how it goes and how much power I have later. Should be in about a month or so. Thanks for all the help...I am just worried about screwing up the motor...so I will just take it to a tuning pro

.

dcg9381 · « **Reply #83 on:** Jul 23, 2007, 10:02:24 PM »

Who'd you talk to over there so I know to avoid 'em.
Did LC tell you that they often have troubles with factory EFI and their stroker motors?
There's *no* way that motor will hit 200hp naturally aspirated and on factory EFI. The stock injectors won't come close to supporting it, even if the motor was capable... Makes the rest of what they're saying suspect!

Now that I'm done flaming the LC sales drone... I hope he was a sales drone...

That motor can put down great power.. and even running poorly, there's simply no reason why it shouldn't hit 70.
If it was assembled as a longblock, the FIRST place i'd start is checking your distributor setup.
The cam has to have a dowl on it.. you may have to carefully back off the bolt that holds on the cam if you can't see it.
If you know 4strokes you can figure it out by timing marks and valve position.. Guys have gone over this in previous posts.

My first bet would be that your timing is way off.. As you're able to bring the timing into a normal range, that's probably not it, so you need to start with the basics.
Adjust your TPS, set your idle then move forward.
Once you get it to idle OK, verify that timing goes up as you rev it.. Say check it at 2k RPM.. Should be in the 20-30 range (estimated off the top of my head).
If it's being timed right, then pay attention to your mixture gauge. I assume it's a narrowband?

That "pro tuning" deal is a variable resistor that tricks the computer into thinking the engine is cold, which adds fuel....
Hope your mechanic is good with the 22re... You spent some bucks on that thing.

Did it ever run well, you mentioned it had a few miles on it?

89toy · « **Reply #84 on:** Jul 24, 2007, 08:23:52 AM »

Yeah, it used to run very well...could climb to 80 in 5th with no problems. I had to replace the rear gears so I was running around with 4.10's in the back for a while...when I put the 5.29 back in the truck was crap.
This engine does not have the stock injectors...everything about the EFI was modified by LC to work with the motor.
what should idle be at when I check the timing? (well, I thought I had an idea about the motor...guess i will work on it myself a little more)

(edit) - when I say close to 200hp...I mean 175-185 hp. Sorry about that...I know there is a big difference when it comes to such a small motor.

89toy · « **Reply #85 on:** Jul 24, 2007, 12:13:48 PM »

ok, another idea (tell me what ya'll think). When I turn my headlights on the volt meter (battery) goes down...when I turn on my blinkers...the battery guage moves with the rhythm of the blinker going on and off. I replaced my alternator about 2 months ago (thinking that was the problem) but that did not help. Is there probably something wrong with the wiring...(my idea)...the alternator does not give enough juice for the AFM to work right at full throttle. What do ya'll think?

dcg9381 · « **Reply #86 on:** Jul 26, 2007, 02:38:31 PM »

Voltmeter behavior is normal.

Trying to narrow this down.. This truck ran great for a while, but when you changed the gears out the truck radically change the way it would drive/idle?

It's significant that the truck was running great and then decided to not run great.
If you're struggling with timing it, you're going to neeed to get some help.

Idle should be normal idle - 700-850 rpm. There's a jumper that you use to get base timing. If you time it without the jumper, you're going to be off by a 5-8 degrees.

Even if the timing is off 5-8 degrees, it doesn't explain this bad a hit in performance...
Pulled the codes on this truck? Does it set a check engine light?

89toy · « **Reply #87 on:** Jul 26, 2007, 04:25:48 PM »

yeah, the truck ran well for a while. I brought it down from TN and it could easily keep 80 in 5th (even go faster if I wanted). I came down to where I live in TX (4,500ft elevation) and I realized that the gears were toast. While I waited for the gears to get here, I had to stick a 3rd with 4.10's in it for a while. It had very poor power (naturally going from 5.29 to 4.10), I messed with the timing just a little...put the 5.29's back in it and it ran like poo. I have since re-timed the truck using a jumper, but that does not seem to help much. If I drop the idle down to 700-850 it feels like the truck is going to fall apart (because the engine is idling so rough...and it makes it to where I can REALLY here the lope of the cam). I will probably drop the idle down to 800 and time it tomorrow (and then bring it back to about 1000 just so it runs smooth).

No check engine light, and I haven't pulled and codes yet...I will have to save a little cash to do that since the only guy in this town that has a reader that will hook up to the truck charges an arm and a leg to do any work.

The truck (I found yesterday) can keep 70..sometimes 75...but only if I push it real hard. If I get on the gas more than an inch or so it really bogs down and seems to almost lose speed.

dcg9381 · « **Reply #88 on:** Aug 14, 2007, 10:29:33 AM »

Any update on this?

MiniSimp · « **Reply #89 on:** Aug 14, 2007, 10:46:49 AM »

Yeah seriously! UPDATE PLEASE!!! Mine is doing the same crap but 10X worse!

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