starter relay HELP ME PLEASE??

[BLACKDOG]

Alright, as most of you know, my truck hasnt been running for going on 2 months   put in a new engine, and it ran, then pulled the plenum to fix something, and now it wont start.  Went through 2 weekends trying to figure out why, got it narrowed down to the distributor, but then I blew out the starter relay, I think.  It started buzzing, and the starter wouldnt work.  Pulled the relay, and got a new one, and the new one is buzzing as well.  Is there something else I have to do to get it to work?  I thought I just had to put a new one in.  Did I just blow another relay, or was that bad from the factory?

[79coyotefrg]

when you turn the key the starter spins but the engine doesnt

[BLACKDOG]

when you turn the key the starter spins but the engine doesnt

it did, but now I dont get anything at all from the starter, the relay itself buzzes, and the starter is silent

[BLACKDOG]

Here's what I've gone through so far.  I gotta get my truck running, and I'm outta ideas with the new problem.

1. New motor went in, started and ran, but had a fuel leak.
2. fixed fuel leak, truck will not start.
3. Messed with the battery, coil, ignitor.  Truck is getting fuel.
4. Starter is turning motor, but motor will not turn over
5. last weekend, blew? starter relay.  Turned ignition, and relay began to buzz.  No sound came from the starter.
6. Went and got new relay, put it in.  Turned ignition, and relay started buzzzing again.
7. Suggested to swap starters, or at least check the starter.  Swapped starters, starter relay still buzzes, and no sound comes from starter. 

Was there something I am supposed to do to reset the real circuit?  Ign. fuse is good. I think the problem with the truck is the distributor, but I'm not sure.  Also, I pulled the cap off both relays, everything looks exactly the same in both. 

[rockscrambler]

hey BLACKDOG do you have the neutral safety switch on you dash board

[BLACKDOG]

hey BLACKDOG do you have the neutral safety switch on you dash board

not sure what this is?  is this the clutch start cancel switch?  Because I do have that.  I've never heard it refered too as the neutral safety switch

[Crawler677]

Check The leads going to the Solonoid from the batter, and the leads from the solonoid to the starter

[Crawler677]

good luck gettin your rig goin

[rockscrambler]

sorry I meant to type neutral safety cancel switch which is the clutch start cancel yes check the connections on the switch when I was driving my brothers 87 $X$ pkp that came loose on me and it was acting like what your describing . also check the fuse that it runs thru if you accidentally crossed wires installing your starter you may have popped the fuse

[Shamb]

hook up a "start" button switch so that you can turn the key and just hit the button to start it, buddy of mine had a bad ignition that was doing that and he put in the start switch.. fixed it.

We changed relays, starters, alt, battery, wiring.. all kinds of crap..

[BLACKDOG]

hook up a "start" button switch so that you can turn the key and just hit the button to start it, buddy of mine had a bad ignition that was doing that and he put in the start switch.. fixed it.

We changed relays, starters, alt, battery, wiring.. all kinds of crap..

Sorry, but I'm pretty much a retard when it comes to electrical, how do I do this? 

[brainlessfool]

Well that's not some thing that ya want to do if ya can avoid it. If your "challaged" when it comes to useing a VOM it's going to be hard ta help ya out.

Butt if it's not the relay, you'll have to check the stuff that goes to and from it. this just to make it trun the motor.
don't think it will have any thing to do with way it's not running.

A basic relay will have 4 leads to it (I'm not off hand knowalbe of your rig) one from the "batt." (hot with the key on) sec. goes to the load (in this case I'm thinking it will be the started sol.) thrd. is a signail wire that tells the relay when to work (yup, this will come from the ign. switch, in the start poss.) last, the sigal wire needs a grund. my bet is that this is where you will find some thing not right.
although it could be any of them. if the groung runs though a lot of stuff (switchs ect.) you can test it by just putting in a test light on the ground side.

that will often be enuff of a ground to make the relay work.

Any way it's to eraly on a sunday moring to be thinking about elct.   and I've sure if I read this latter I'll change some things.

butt hope it helps you get started, message me if you want with any ?s ya got and I'll try ta help ya oout.

[BLACKDOG]

Well that's not some thing that ya want to do if ya can avoid it. If your "challaged" when it comes to useing a VOM it's going to be hard ta help ya out.

Butt if it's not the relay, you'll have to check the stuff that goes to and from it. this just to make it trun the motor.
don't think it will have any thing to do with way it's not running.

A basic relay will have 4 leads to itthe relay has 4 blades in it, I'm assuming the leads you are talking about run from the places the blades plug into? (I'm not off hand knowalbe of your rig) one from the "batt." (hot with the key on) sec. goes to the load (in this case I'm thinking it will be the started sol.) thrd. is a signail wire that tells the relay when to work (yup, this will come from the ign. switch, in the start poss.) last, the sigal wire needs a grund. my bet is that this is where you will find some thing not right.
although it could be any of them. if the groung runs though a lot of stuff (switchs ect.) you can test it by just putting in a test light on the ground side.

that will often be enuff of a ground to make the relay work.

Any way it's to eraly on a sunday moring to be thinking about elct.   and I've sure if I read this latter I'll change some things.

butt hope it helps you get started, message me if you want with any ?s ya got and I'll try ta help ya oout.

THanks brainless, I'll have to give this a shot

[BLACKDOG]

COuld I have just gotten a bad relay from toyota?   I just pulled and rebuilt my starter, and hooked it up to my battery, and it worked fine.  However, once its in my truck, and I turn the key, the relay under the driver's side dash just buzzes.  The FSM says it is the starter or backup light relay.  THe relay itself says starter relay.  Both the old relay ad the new one just buzz when I turn the key, and there is nothing from the starter.

[brainlessfool]

check the ground though the clutch switch, or the ground though the "safety cancel" switch.

I'm betting thats where the trouble is.

My pos manual is saying it's a brown with a red strip wire.

[rockscrambler]

I told him to check that yesterday.

[Shamb]

Its not that relay, they buzz. Trust me.. lol

Just hook that start button directly to your battery with a ground. Once you turn the key you'll get juice to it and you can just press the button to start it. I bet its your ignition, EXACT same problem two of my buddies were having and it was the exact same thing. They tried changing out relays a few times becuase they buzzed but that wasn't the problem.

[reklund5]

Ok.  I'll make it simple for you to test the starter circuit in the ignition. 

Theres a little wire on the starter right?  Unplug it.  Now get a female spade connector and about 6' of wire.  Crimp the spade on one end of the wire and plug it into the starter.  Get in the truck and turn the key to the "on" or "run" position.  Ensure the vehicle is in neutral and the parking brake is applied.  Get out and grab the end of the wire we made and touch it to the positive terminal of the battery long enough for the starter to engage.  IF the engine starts, you found the problem- the starter circuit.  My guess is that you pinched that wire somewhere in the process of changing engines/plenums/misc parts and it's grounded somwhere, causing that relay to freak out. 

I'm not sure I fully understand the problem- is it correct that at this time you can't even get the starter to turn the engine over?  When it was working, the engine would crank but not start?   Excuse me for questioning this...I just wanna make sure we're fighting the same battle.

It's extremely unlikely that you got a faulty relay if you replaced it with a dealer part.  The relay is buzzing because there's not enough voltage going thru the control side of the relay to keep the power circuit closed.  The following is taken directly from a Toyota electrica circuit diagnosis book:

"A relay is simply a remote-control switch, which uses a small amout of current to control a large amount of current.  The control circuit is fed current by the power source, and the current flows through a switch and an electromagnetic coil to ground.  The power cirucit is also fed current from the power source, and the current flows to an armature which can be attracted by the magnetic force on the coil.

In operation, when the control circuit switch is open, no current flows to the relay. The coil is not energized, the contacts are open, and no power goes to the load.  When the control circuit switch is closed, however, current flows to the relay and energizes the coil.  The resulting magnetic field pulls the armature down, closing the contacts and allowing power to the load."

So basically, you have low voltage on the control side which doesn't generate enough magnetic force to keep the relay contacts closed long enough to engage the starter.  The "buzzing" you hear is the armature in the relay opening and closing really fast.  Your control circuit is screwy- either between the ignition switch an the relay or between the relay and the control side ground.  You can attempt to short the power circuit of the relay- but you'll have to remove the relay, make a jumper wire, and know where to stick it to do that.  Maybe try my 6' wire method first...

Ryan

[BLACKDOG]

I'll give your test a try, and the cancel switch ground test a try next weekend.  It sucks not having my truck around right where I can work on it. 

Reklud, to answer your question on what we're trying to fix

After I tightend the banjo bolt on the fuel rail, and put the plenum back on, the truck would not start.  It would turn all day long, and it was getting fuel, but it wouldnt fire.  I tried spraying carb cleaner into the intake (ran the engine like this before I even took it outta the runner) and it wouldnt fire.  Assumed it was spark, and tested up to the dizzy.  I think that is the solution of the original problem a bad pickup coil or something. 

Last sunday, supermat and I were messing with it, he was poking around with a test light, and when I turned the ignition to crank it, the relay started buzzing.  Since then, that is the problem I've been dealing with.  My starter is making no sound, but I did get some clicks from over in that general area this afternoon.  I tested the starter and it is good.  I have been using the clutch cancel so I dont have to get in and out, mabye the constant use disrupted the ground?

[79coyotefrg]

if im not mistaken  the clutch switch is the ground circuit, so if you unplugged the clutch switch and used a wire to make a hard ground to the clutch plug  that would tell you if the clutch switch is bad  therefor not getting a good enough ground to the relay   

[derek]

sounds like you left a ground undone after you put it together.
check the wire harness for any grounds you may have missed.
i had the same problem with a honda, main relay would just buzz and car wouldnt start.
turned out to be a stuipd little ground i missed.

derek

[BLACKDOG]

thats what I was thinking, but it would turn over for a while, but then one day it stopped, and I hadn't touched any of the grounds in a while

[derek]

on my honda it ran great because the wire was laying up against something grounding it, then i hit a bump and the car wouldnt run any more, turned out to be that stupid ground.

derek

[brainlessfool]

I'm not going to help any more untill he's check that ground!










get'er done!

[BLACKDOG]

Guess I'll have to wait'll thi s weekend for more help from brainless then.

[brainlessfool]

I'll be watching! it's friday. 

[brainlessfool]

Now it's sat.    what do I have to do? come over there and do it myself?    just get out there and find out what's up

don't make me come over there! 

you know how I get!   

[BLACKDOG]

I'm on it brainless

And if you wanna come over and do it yourself, I wont stop you

[BLACKDOG]

Reklund, did your test, and the starter turned the motor over.   What exactly constitutes the starter circuit? the battery, starter, ingition?  I'm not sure what exactly I should be digging into now that I know its the starter circuit.   

Also, now my fuel pump continues to run (whining) after I turn off the ignition, as does something in the front drivers side of the engine itself. I have to disconnect the battery in order to make them stop.  never noticed that before. 

[TOYOTA4X4]

Check this link out...       http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf

Look at the pretty pictures and you should get an idea how the wiring connects in the start circuit. From what you have described, it sounds like a ground problem at the relay or a voltage drop to the starter relay (since that's what is buzzing). Look at a service manual, and look at your starter relay - the switched output is what sends the 12V to the little spade Reklund had you jumper to. His test proved the starter solenoid works... now you need to work back to the relay (test the wire itself from the starter to relay). At this point we don't know if the relay is trying to work and can't due to a bad wire or if the problem is before the relay. So... figure out which terminal is the 12V output in the relay box, remove the relay, hook up the starter normally, and basically do the same test as before, but inject the 12V from the battery in the now vacant output terminal where the relay was. If the starter rolls the engine over... the factory wire is ok. If the starter does not do anything, then you need to find that wire and fix it.

If the starter moves, then you need to see if you have a good 12V from the ignition switch... you can test this where the relay was as well... the input to the relay should switch 12V when you cycle the key. The trick here is you can check the the ground the relay is using as well... another terminal for the relay is a ground... use THAT ground for your test light and then test the 12V input. If the test light doesn't light... move the ground to the (-) battery terminal and try again.. if the 12V appears... you have a bad ground to the Fuse/Relay box. If changing grounds doesn't help, then you need to trace the wire feeding the relay from the ignition switch. To do that I would go right  to ignition switch and work from there back to the relay box, again checking that 12V comes from the output of the switch to the relay, although since the relay buzzes you may have to actually test with a multimeter instead of a light... the buzz tells us that SOME signal is getting to the relay from the key, but you may have a voltage drop (could be a corroded/crushed/loose etc..) wire into the relay.

I am guessing the problem is in the engine compartment somewhere since that is where the biggest changes have occured. Also it is more than likely your starter and ignition problems stem from the same source... anyways, I've rambled enough... Good luck and if you need more, just shout!