Dual Toy Cases in a Wrangler???.Attn. Marlin.

[iNfErNaL]

Is there a tranny that'll bolt up to my motor or bellhousing that'll allow me to run dual cases?...I've seen dual Yota setups on Jeeps before,but never in a Wrangler.Also,how much longer will the Toy tranny and cases be than my AX-15,and 231?.I am planning on rocking coils in the rear,and moving the axle back 2 or 3 inches.That's when I would like to do that.I thought about running an Atlas,or a Klune-V Crawler box,or 4 to 1 gears in my existing t-case,but I figure I can sell my stuff now,and should be able to fund the new set-up.About how much work would be involved?.How'bout $$$$?.What exactly would I need to buy?.Would this be a good set-up?..............How cool would it be to run dual  s in a My junk?.It would probably upset Jeep purists,or as I like to call them Jeep-Pansies.I wheel with a lot of Toy owners,more then Jeeps,and a few of them run Marlins,and I really like the way they work.......Please help,any info is greatly appreciated! .

[WHITE_TRASH]

I know a guy that did just that.  Ill see if I can track him down in the next couple days and find out what he did.

[BigMike]

Hey Infernal-

Check this link about Transmissions: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=1933.0
Greg55_99

I believe Static-XJ has it right:

Spent the last 4 hours or so searching, reading, following links, more searching, etc. on the subject. Just want to clear a few things up.

From this I think I can conclude that what I need to do to get dual RF1A cases beind my AX15 is to swap the tailhousing and output shaft from an R151F onto my AX15. Am I assuming this correctly? Would any of the other tramsmission tailhousings work?

Could a tailhousing housing with a forward shifter work, provided the first RF1A unit is also forward shifting? The second will need to be top shifting anyways, right?

Spline count shouldn't matter if I get the tailhousing/output shaft and transfercase from the same truck, right?

Any easy ways to ID transmissions by looking at their case?

I don't know about the lenghts though..

[iNfErNaL]

Cool guys,thanx alot!...Just thought of something else too though.I'd have to sell my new Ford D60,and go Chevy.I really want to do this though,any more info would help out a lot.Thanx again White Trash and Big Mike!!!. .

[BLACKDOG]

someone a ways back did a bunch of research on different trannys and bellhousings that bolted up and made this possible, but I dont remember who it was or where it was posted

[Greg55_99]

This might be some of what you want:

http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/showthread.php?t=4740

Greg

PS.  Thanks for the mention Marlin 

[Greg55_99]

You might find this info of interest.  "Fast Eddie" over on the International Harvester (Binder) Board is putting together a "Hybrid" tranny for his diesel Scout.  He's going to use the Jeep gearsets in the Toyota case. http://www.binderbulletin.org/forums/?  I'll post his comments:

"'Bout a year (or so  ) back, I lucked into an old '70's-era SAE #4/GM SM465 clutch cover.

Intially, I was going to use a Jeep T-5 transmission and transfer case; the Jeep tranny guts were going to go in a bare NOS GM T-5 case I picked up on eBay (cheep, too).

I got talked out of the T-5 thing really quickly; they have no GVW to speak of, and used Jeep T-5 and the t-case go with 'em are an "in-demand" item, i.e., $$$$$$$$$$$ for a POS transmission.

An alternative I staggered across about that time was the (then-new) New Venture Gear NV 3550, a five-speed OD current-Jeep transmission with a decent GVW that both Dodge and C$%^&vy use in their 1/2-ton V-6 (and maybe V-8--I don't know) pickups. Inference--plenty strong for my purposes, and weight is around 107-lbs.

Advance Adapters sell this tranny new, along with an adapter plate...for Ford transmission bolt-pattern bellhousings  . Well, I need a plate for a GM bellhousing, and guess what?

WHAT?

Advance only sells full bellhousings, i.e., block-to-transmission face, for GM bolt-pattern transmissions.  (I may have mumbled a few bad words to myself when I found this out).

Now, I have been collecting and studying Advance's new catalogs as they come out, and I came across this interesting tidbit that was in one (and only ONE) previous catalog: "We refer to the NV3550 bellhousing bolt pattern as the AX-15 bolt pattern..."

Hmmmm. Further research in professional-level transmission parts houses confirmed the fact: The NV 3550 and AX-15 five-speed OD transmissions were indeed directly interchangeable, when in Jeep specification...because the Dodge Dakota also used the AX-15.

They don't break, used ones aren't in any huge demand, and I picked one up off eBay...cheep.

You see, it was at that same time that I found an AX-15/GM adapter plate in Novak's catalog.

Now it gets interesting: all these same catalogs hinted at the fact that the Toyota Supra R-154, and Toyota truck R-150/151 were the same transmission! (The professional-level catalog even went so far as to write that the Aisin transmission is a TOYOTA design!)

I picked up an '89 FourFunner V-6 tranny, t-case (passenger-side front drive drop), driveshafts, crossmember, blah blah blah off eBay.

Side-by-side, they are indeed identical--externally  except for input shaft and case rear halves.

The Jeep's input shaft is 7-1/2" long, 1-1/8" 10-spline (classic GM size, what a coincidence  ) and I have to have that length because of the adapter plate and old '70's bellhousing.

The plan is to use the Toyota case and mainshaft, Jeep gearsets and countershaft. I think it'll work--all the bearing and seal P/Ns are the same.

They also list this transmission as the current 5-spd. in the T-100, a 1/2-ton pickup, so I'll upgrade where possible, plus Marlin (of "Marlin Crawler") has some beef-up parts as well that'll waft their way in (and no, unfortunately I don't think a Crawler box will make it in...they are EXPENSIVE  )

One of my guiding principles is to adapt to current, well-supported components, and Toyota is indeed well-supported in the marketplace.

Marlin has the Twin-Stick I'd love to use-but it works only with geared t-cases, not chain. In fact, to make my chain t-case work I'd have to buy a gear-drive reduction box and two separate adapter kits.

I mean, I've only got an engine set-back and all that entails, a fiberglass body, a rehabbed/breathed-on head, big-*** radiator, huge intercooler, convertible top, steering and both axle rebuilds, revised hydraulic power braking, a really cool intake and exhaust system, and a weird gearbox miscegination that may or may not work out, etc. etc. etc to buy or buy parts for, so extra gearing may have to wait... (maybe I have my priorities wrong?  )

Why am I so adamant that I have to have a planetary-reduction chain t-case?

Simple: drivetrain efficiency, i.e., MPG; why do you think the industry has switched to planetaries to begin with? With front-drive deactivated, there ARE NO extra parts flailing around inside, as there would be with a bull-gear/idler gear/front-drive gear setup.

But: with a reduction-only range box in-between tranny and final t-case, I would gain crazy-low off-road gearing while running crazy-high highway final gearing, which could possibly offset any theoretical inertial losses through the reduction gearbox.

I kinda like the 3.73s in there now, and as this is a city stoplight-to-stoplight DD, the lower gears really help in getting the mess moving--but like you, I really think that 2200 rpm is the target number.

However, I'm going to hold off on any diff gearing revisions until the mess is completed--for the simple reason of weight reduction and revised CG, i.e., front/rear weight transfer. I've tried to project but there are just too many unknowns at this point.

(All that BS aside, it'll probably wind up 3.54...but I really like the 3.36 number, too).

I compared a T-428, a Jeep AX-15, and the Toyota R-150 in Excel:

Ratios V-6
3.0/3.4 4.0L
IH T-19 CR Toyota Jeep
T-428 Spread R-150F Spread AX-15 Spread
First 4.02 3.83 3.83
Second 2.41 40% 2.06 46% 2.33 39%
Third 1.41 42% 1.44 24% 1.44 38%
Fourth 1.00 29% 1.00 31% 1.00 31%
Fifth N/A 0.84 16% 0.79 21%
Rev 4.42 4.22






Ratio Spread Formula Component Mix
Ratio 1-Ratio 2 = X Toyota Input Retainer
Toyota Main Case
X Jeep input shaft
Ratio 1=Percent Drop Jeep gear set
Toyota main shaft
Jeep countershaft
Toyota Mid Plate
Toyota Rear Case
Toyota output shaft
Toyota shift rail/forks mechanism
Jeep shift tower and lever
Toyota couplers
Marlin Rear Bearing Plate


Note the Jeep gearset's more even spreads between gears, which was a pleasant surprise to me--intially, I was only going to use the Jeep's gearsets because I prefer to keep matched gear pairs together (I have to replace input gear because of input shaft; want to use input gears' countershaft pair; countershaft is probably a one-piece cluster-gear; meaning ALL mainshaft gears have to be paired, too; and they should go on the Totota mainshaft because they all use the SAME needle bearing P/N; and I'd have to use the Toyota mainshaft 'cause I'm using the Toyota t-case).

Another plus was the Jeeps higher OD ratio 

In the meantime, the main thing to remember is this: $200.00. That is what a good, usable, Jeep V-6 AX-15 tranny cost me, less t-case; spline and bolt pattern both are direct fits to Jeep Dana 300s, if that is the way you want to go.

OTOH, a Toyota R-150 with first-gen chain-drive righthand-drop t-case cost me $300 (and that included mount, driveshafts--double-Cardan CVs  ), crossmember, etc, as the R-151 w/4.3 First from the rare Toyota turbo-Four pickup made only a couple years in the mid-'80's, and a gear-drive t-case is the one everybody wants, and the price reflects this.

An R-150 as I described is basically only worthwhile as a core, if you wanna be rock-crawler trendy, pay da money. Or get the cheep version; if you're me, you'll be overhauling whatever anyway, so go to Marlin's website, and pop for his gearset with the 5.31 Low.

Again, if you're me, you'll want the chain-drive righthand drop t-case for onroad MPG and easy match-up to the RH pumpkins on the Scout, but RH-drop 23-spline input gear-drive t-cases (the one you want) are still cheap, plentiful, and some seriously sick low ranges are fairly easy and cheep.

For Scout Diesel guys, the down-side to the AX-15 (at this point) is still the cost and parts availability for adaptation at the engine end; with all the hard Toyota/Dakota/Jeepota info in the link Weber's given us, I'm wondering if there might be something affordable in there for us.

I'll eventually do a cost comparison, but I think

Man, there sure are a whole lot of little pieces in there...times two!  Seems like the ones that are made of unobtainium are either spring-loaded and begin a trip to Mars via stored kinetic energy when knocked out of their groove, or have an affinity for the wire wheel and infinity 

Actually, I didn't lose any, and I've been careful to refurbish, label the piece with my engraver, label the baggie they went in, and cross-index to the Toyota shop manual (a very, very well-done manual, too), and bag things up.

I'm pulling them both down, side by side, and taking digital images in quantity as I go. Both are down to mid-plates, shift rails and internal linkage removed, main and cluster shafts and gears still intact, and no, I don't think the Jeep tranny is going to be reusable in any form, not even as a core.

As a general observation, both Jeep AX-15 and Toyota R-150 are v-e-r-y similar (I don't want to say "identical") in the center section, i.e., past the point where the input shaft joins the main shaft and at the rear outside the mid-plate (which is the OD gear.)

The Jeep mainshaft (output) is quite a bit different from the Toyota at the rear, where is joins up to the T-case. The Jeep is longer, does not have its own bearing, and male-splines directly into the T-case; the Toyota is shorter, has a finer spline count, uses a sleeve-spacer, a ball bearing.

I.e., I am going to have to use the Toy mainshaft, Jeep gearset, Jeep input shaft, Jeep countershaft, Jeep OD gears.

Both use different mounting systems for the OD gears, but in both cases are demountable from the main and countershafts, so I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll be able to use the Toy OD gears on the Jeep countershaft and Toy mainshaft with the Jeep gearsets.

Needless to say, I have some careful measuring to do before I pull all the gear shafts off the mid-plate and apart! 

(I WILL be putting up some pics before very much longer)."

Eddie

[iNfErNaL]

Hey guys,thanx-a-lot!!!!....Very useful info.....Good lookin' out.     !.