Topic: The horror that is "Remanufactured" Engines?

[Toybrota]

The title itself is basically what I wanna discuss and maybe get some others personal experience stories.

I myself have a "Remanufactured" Engine in my Toyota, and it only has 80K on it, despite it having a failing rear main, and 120PSI on all 4 cylinders, I have the paperwork from back in 2001 when the engine was replaced with a "reman". ( I know this doesn't say anything for how is was treated before I got it, just an interesting thing to add)

I think of engines that are rebuilt from a reputable shop as 100 times better than anything you can buy on eBay, obviously shops have their own issues too, and the best way to assure quality it to rebuild it yourself, using quality Japanese parts.

In fact, a quick search for "22RE" on eBay brings up endless amounts of $1500 engines being sold, with no mention of their internal components.

Obviously price doesn't mean quality, but you'd be hard pressed to rebuild a 22R with good components for $1500

This isn't meant to complain about my crappy 22R, if it blows (When) I'll rebuild it, but what are your experiences with crappy quality rebuilds or remans?

[Gnarly4X]

Sorry for your woes..

This subject is deep and wide.

Gnarls

[SqWADoosh]

My reman engine that came in my 4runner didn't make it to 20k before losing compression in 2 cylinders. 

[Toybrota [OP]]

My reman engine that came in my 4runner didn't make it to 20k before losing compression in 2 cylinders. 

Wow, that's absolutely terrible.


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[cporche]

The title itself is basically what I wanna discuss and maybe get some others personal experience stories.

I myself have a "Remanufactured" Engine in my Toyota, and it only has 80K on it, despite it having a failing rear main, and 120PSI on all 4 cylinders, I have the paperwork from back in 2001 when the engine was replaced with a "reman". ( I know this doesn't say anything for how is was treated before I got it, just an interesting thing to add)

I think of engines that are rebuilt from a reputable shop as 100 times better than anything you can buy on eBay, obviously shops have their own issues too, and the best way to assure quality it to rebuild it yourself, using quality Japanese parts.

In fact, a quick search for "22RE" on eBay brings up endless amounts of $1500 engines being sold, with no mention of their internal components.

Obviously price doesn't mean quality, but you'd be hard pressed to rebuild a 22R with good components for $1500

This isn't meant to complain about my crappy 22R, if it blows (When) I'll rebuild it, but what are your experiences with crappy quality rebuilds or remans?

Yeah i bought one of those, 1300 bucks for new head and long block and metal timing chain guides. The seals were such crap so i can only immagine what the the rest of the engine was built with. At the time i didnt have time to build it myself however now at only 5k on it i feel like its a time bomb =(

[300k]

I cut myself on a piston pulling apart a reman short block. they do not use good parts...if you can find where they hide the warranty info, you will also find you do not have a warranty lol

[Toybrota [OP]]

I cut myself on a piston pulling apart a reman short block. they do not use good parts...if you can find where they hide the warranty info, you will also find you do not have a warranty lol

I've found that many have a 1 year "Unlimited" mileage warranty, doesn't mean anything as they are still crap.

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[300k]

I've found that many have a 1 year "Unlimited" mileage warranty, doesn't mean anything as they are still crap.

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some of the cheaper ones put STUPID restrictions on what you can and cannot do with your motor. Must be installed by a pro, must use OEM blah blah blah, must change oil every 500 miles, if broken, must be repaired by a pro...stuff like that. much better to rebuild your own motor.

[Toybrota [OP]]

some of the cheaper ones put STUPID restrictions on what you can and cannot do with your motor. Must be installed by a pro, must use OEM blah blah blah, must change oil every 500 miles, if broken, must be repaired by a pro...stuff like that. much better to rebuild your own motor.

Exactly, I'd rather spend $3K on a quality rebuild that will last rather than a dumb cheapo one.

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[cporche]

some of the cheaper ones put STUPID restrictions on what you can and cannot do with your motor. Must be installed by a pro, must use OEM blah blah blah, must change oil every 500 miles, if broken, must be repaired by a pro...stuff like that. much better to rebuild your own motor.

The guy i bought mine from said some bull crap about that too, i then walked over to my truck and pulled out my useless ase card, gave it to him and asked if he would like a photocopy. In hind sight i should have known better as he beat my usual engine vender by 800 bucks. I have seen more shotty workmanship from back techs then from customers/ shade-tree mechanics.

[Snowtoy]

Remans are not rebuilds, just the parts that failed are replaced, and then only the cheapest parts are used.  This is why they are less than half the price of respected rebuilt engine companies and shop quotes.  The 6-12 months/12k warranty is used to entice buyers, the seller is gambling that the buyers will sell the vehicle, the warranty will expire, or the but will violate the terms regarding who can repair it, before they have to make good on the warranty.

[emsvitil]

Do it yourself

Farm out the machine work you can't do,  inspect results........

[Toybrota [OP]]

Do it yourself

Farm out the machine work you can't do,  inspect results........

Yes, that is the best solution. The whole point of this thread is to discuss the crappy remanufactured engines we've delt with

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[Gnarly4X]

I’m always somewhat puzzled by these discussions. 

This discussion can have many perspectives… here’s mine.

Each person has a different need or desire, so the variables to a rebuild can be endless.

I’ve read umpteen thousand posts on 4x4 forums, other automotive forums, been part of conversations, and discussed this with various machine shops, repair shops, speed shops, performance parts suppliers……. for about 18 years.

Rebuilding a Toyota 22 is not rocket science, brain surgery, or nuclear physics.  BUT… there is enough information readily available in a few hours of research to figure out what you need to know about rebuilding an engine and what you need to know about buying a “remanufactured” engine.

Depending your abilities, timeframe, money, and space, you try to make the best decision.  It is an attractive option to just order one online and begin bolting it in.  Warranties don’t mean didley.  Typically it will cost you time, money, and a lot of frustration to actually process a warranty claim on a remanufactured engine.

It did quite a bit of research and contemplating (BUT, admittedly not enough), visited a couple auto shops, had detailed discussions with 4 machine shops, several reputable Toyota engine builders, and spent more than a couple hours on the net reading about the offers from the various remanufactured engine suppliers, and aftermarket parts suppliers.

I had the time, saved up budget, space, and most of the tools… so I decided to do it myself.  Why?  I didn’t fully trust a repair shop.  Prices from LCE or 22RE Performance would exceed my budget.  I wanted the experience and enjoy the satisfaction of doing it myself.

Rebuilding a 22 so it will last 200K to 300K miles without a major failure requires precise machining, quality parts, and an experienced engine builder who knows the tricks.  Oh… yeah.. there’s the posts about a guy who claims to rebuild one in 2 hours, or over a week end while drinking a case a beer, and only spending $500.  Really?

22RE Performance - arguably is a VERY reputable Toyota 22R/RE engine builder - will build you a Stage 1 22R long block for $2500… it only takes them about 40 hours to build it and about 24 weeks before it ships to you. WHY?

Knowing what I know now, spending over a year and spending north of $5,000 on my rebuilt 22RE, if my Corolla was really a DeLorean with a flux-capacitor I’d would go back in time and buy a long block from 22RE Performance.  What I have learned during my rebuild project is invaluable and I’ve enjoyed the journey, but I’m still not completely satisfied with the results. It’s only got about 200 miles on it, so it still needs to be broken in and tuned.

I have never bought a remanufactured engine.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[green200b]

I can relate to quite a few things that Gnarls has said. I did consider buying a crate motor to replace the tired 350 Chev in my Toyota, but wanted to have a go at rebuilding one myself. In many ways I wish I had just done that as it would have theoretically been cheaper. I am over $6,000 into my rebuild and I could have got a crate motor for half of that, but I have heard enough horror stories (mainly involving swarf in the engine) about crate motors that I think I will be glad in the long run that I did mine myself.

[Lewis Hein]

At these prices and with such a level of uncertainty, I question whether the Toyota platform is worth it at all when an engine gives out.

I have never seen a remanufactured engine, but given the price difference, I would expect nothing but trouble out of one. And after living with my truck and repairing the damage done by previous shade-tree mechanics, I don't think I'd trust a truck that came with a rebuilt engine. Which means, when the engine goes out, that you spend a minimum of around $5000 if you want it to work well again. Meanwhile, old Toyotas can be found for less than $5000, which means that your vehicle is effectively totaled when the engine quits.

[H8PVMNT]

I have had a couple re-mans in my early days and they were junk. 

For the same amount of money you can easily put together your own engine, hiring out any necessary machine work and putting everything together with the parts of your choice.  These things are super easy to put together.  Honestly its harder to hook all the extra junk to the outside of the engine than it is to put together a long block with freshly machined parts.

[cporche]

I’m always somewhat puzzled by these discussions. 

This discussion can have many perspectives… here’s mine.

Each person has a different need or desire, so the variables to a rebuild can be endless.

I’ve read umpteen thousand posts on 4x4 forums, other automotive forums, been part of conversations, and discussed this with various machine shops, repair shops, speed shops, performance parts suppliers……. for about 18 years.

Rebuilding a Toyota 22 is not rocket science, brain surgery, or nuclear physics.  BUT… there is enough information readily available in a few hours of research to figure out what you need to know about rebuilding an engine and what you need to know about buying a “remanufactured” engine.

Depending your abilities, timeframe, money, and space, you try to make the best decision.  It is an attractive option to just order one online and begin bolting it in.  Warranties don’t mean didley.  Typically it will cost you time, money, and a lot of frustration to actually process a warranty claim on a remanufactured engine.

It did quite a bit of research and contemplating (BUT, admittedly not enough), visited a couple auto shops, had detailed discussions with 4 machine shops, several reputable Toyota engine builders, and spent more than a couple hours on the net reading about the offers from the various remanufactured engine suppliers, and aftermarket parts suppliers.

I had the time, saved up budget, space, and most of the tools… so I decided to do it myself.  Why?  I didn’t fully trust a repair shop.  Prices from LCE or 22RE Performance would exceed my budget.  I wanted the experience and enjoy the satisfaction of doing it myself.

Rebuilding a 22 so it will last 200K to 300K miles without a major failure requires precise machining, quality parts, and an experienced engine builder who knows the tricks.  Oh… yeah.. there’s the posts about a guy who claims to rebuild one in 2 hours, or over a week end while drinking a case a beer, and only spending $500.  Really?

22RE Performance - arguably is a VERY reputable Toyota 22R/RE engine builder - will build you a Stage 1 22R long block for $2500… it only take them about 40 hours to build it and about 24 weeks to before it ships to you. WHY?

Knowing what I know now, spending over a year and spending north of $5,000 on my rebuilt 22RE, if my Corolla was really a DeLorean with a flux-capacitor I’d would go back in time and buy a long block from 22RE Performance.  What I have learned during my rebuild project is invaluable and I’ve enjoyed the journey, but I’m still not completely satisfied with the results. It’s only got about 200 miles on it, so it still needs to be broken in and tuned.

I have never bought a remanufactured engine.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

I agree with a lot of what your saying, my choice was dependent on cost and time. At the time i needed the car back on the road plus my block and head were wasted and would have spent much more rebuilding that engine then my own. Honestly i'll be happy if i can get 40-60k out of this motor, and do a proper rebuild at that time. It will be more money this way in the long run but atleast it will function correctly for the time being. Like what lewis said if you do everything to the motor correctly and replaced all of the nessicary external parts your pushing 5k which is twice what i paid for the car. Rather difficult to get the wife to swallow that pill knowing we will need another 3.5-4k for doublers and sas, however when we have a fully functional toy with doublers, sas, onboard air, lockers, wheels and tires, seats, harnessess, and other various pieces and parts i'll be at 8-9k with the price of the truck included would be easier to justify the possiblye 3.5-5k motor replacement done correctly. from the rough math i did when i swapped mine with a reman, rebuild was gunna be about 3k with out hoses, wp, radiator, and such which ended up costing me about 700 bucks more.

[Gnarly4X]

I have had a couple re-mans in my early days and they were junk. 

....  These things are super easy to put together.  Honestly its harder to hook all the extra junk to the outside of the engine than it is to put together a long block with freshly machined parts.

I get what you're saying....   let's define "super easy".

Hmmm.... well.... I believe they are "super easy to put together" for some people.  Jim at 22RE Performance takes 40 hours.... so are his rebuilds super easy?

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

At these prices and with such a level of uncertainty, I question whether the Toyota platform is worth it at all when an engine gives out.

I have never seen a remanufactured engine, but given the price difference, I would expect nothing but trouble out of one. And after living with my truck and repairing the damage done by previous shade-tree mechanics, I don't think I'd trust a truck that came with a rebuilt engine. Which means, when the engine goes out, that you spend a minimum of around $5000 if you want it to work well again. Meanwhile, old Toyotas can be found for less than $5000, which means that your vehicle is effectively totaled when the engine quits.

I'd say $5000 is a lot for a rebuild, LCE has their pro rebuild kits with high wuality everything for like what, 700? Machine work is probably the most expensive.

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[Gnarly4X]

....  Honestly its harder to hook all the extra junk to the outside of the engine than it is to put together a long block with freshly machined parts.

I agree with that!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I'd say $5000 is a lot for a rebuild

$5K is a lot!  BUT.. it depends on what you are doing on your rebuild, who's doing the work, what parts you are using, and what upgrades or modifications you may be doing to it.

Can you buy a high quality fully rebuilt, turn-key, 22R for $5,000?  Or.. can you have someone do a high quality R&R - turn-key - for $5,000?

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I get what you're saying....   let's define "super easy".

Hmmm.... well.... I believe they are "super easy to put together" for some people.  Jim at 22RE Performance takes 40 hours.... so are his rebuilds super easy?

Gnarls.

I work slow and check everything too much when I put them together in maybe 2 days.  I think Jim is including machine work.  I am talking just assembly.  Obviously results will vary depending on how fast, slow, anal or Pfff we are.

[Snowtoy]

Rebuilding a 22 so it will last 200K to 300K miles without a major failure requires precise machining, quality parts, and an experienced engine builder who knows the tricks.  Oh… yeah.. there’s the posts about a guy who claims to rebuild one in 2 hours, or over a week end while drinking a case a beer, and only spending $500.  Really?

22RE Performance - arguably is a VERY reputable Toyota 22R/RE engine builder - will build you a Stage 1 22R long block for $2500… it only take them about 40 hours to build it and about 24 weeks to before it ships to you. WHY?

I would have to assume the "40hrs" is the SAE book time for tear down/assembly and machine work, any competent mechanic should have it torn down and rebuilt in around 10-15 hours, sooner if all they do is 22r's.  A motivated/uninterrupted first time DYIer, taking their time and not running into any issues, should be able to remove and tear down a 22r over 2-3 days and take about 3-4 days to have it back in and running. 

Knowing what I know now, spending over a year and spending north of $5,000 on my rebuilt 22RE, if my Corolla was really a DeLorean with a flux-capacitor I’d would go back in time and buy a long block from 22RE Performance.  What I have learned during my rebuild project is invaluable and I’ve enjoyed the journey, but I’m still not completely satisfied with the results. It’s only got about 200 miles on it, so it still needs to be broken in and tuned.

Outside of having to redo the same work and buying new parts a couple of times, I have No idea how you spent that kind of money.

At these prices and with such a level of uncertainty, I question whether the Toyota platform is worth it at all when an engine gives out.

I have never seen a remanufactured engine, but given the price difference, I would expect nothing but trouble out of one. And after living with my truck and repairing the damage done by previous shade-tree mechanics, I don't think I'd trust a truck that came with a rebuilt engine. Which means, when the engine goes out, that you spend a minimum of around $5000 if you want it to work well again. Meanwhile, old Toyotas can be found for less than $5000, which means that your vehicle is effectively totaled when the engine quits.

$5k is 3-5 times what it should cost for a is basic 22r rebuild, it likely wouldn't even cost that much to have a shop remove the old one and drop in a new stage 1 rebuild from 22reperformance.  The most I have spent rebuilding a Toyota motor so far was on my 7mgte, which unlike the 22r's is a rare engine with no "less" expensive alternatives, and even with the additional block/head machine and custom parts/upgrades needed to reliably support upgrades 450rwhp, it cost me less than $2500 in current $$'s.

[Mudder]

I ordered a fully machined block, crank, APR and eagle rods for around 2k from LCE. I already had the head from engnbldr. 5k is way over priced.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey Snowtoy,

... any competent mechanic should have it torn down and rebuilt in around 10-15 hours, sooner if all they do is 22r's.

I've participated in these online miracle Toyota engine rebuilds before.  "10-15 hours" may be possible.  Please detail the time spent for each step in the process, from "torn down" to "rebuilt".

A motivated/uninterrupted first time DYIer, taking their time and not running into any issues, should be able to remove and tear down a 22r over 2-3 days and take about 3-4 days to have it back in and running.

 

That also may be possible.  Please detail the time for each step in the process.

Outside of having to redo the same work and buying new parts a couple of times, I have No idea how you spent that kind of money.

You obviously have no idea.  I have a spread sheet with my costs, so it doesn’t matter what you don’t know or what you think.  The math in my spread sheet is factual.

$5k is 3-5 times what it should cost for a is basic 22r rebuild, it likely wouldn't even cost that much to have a shop remove the old one and drop in a new stage 1 rebuild from 22reperformance.

That may be possible.  Please detail the time for each step in the process, and the prices a competent shop would charge.

The most I have spent rebuilding a Toyota motor so far was on my 7mgte, which unlike the 22r's is a rare engine with no "less" expensive alternatives, and even with the additional block/head machine and custom parts/upgrades needed to reliably support upgrades 450rwhp, it cost me less than $2500 in current $$'s.

That may be possible.  Please define "rebuilding", detail all the costs for the entire rebuild.

You may well be the best auto mechanic and Toyota engine builder west of the Rockies… and good for you. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I ordered a fully machined block, crank, APR and eagle rods for around 2k from LCE. I already had the head from engnbldr. 5k is way over priced.

5k is way over priced for WHAT?

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Didn't mean for this thread to get off topic, just wanted to know everyone else's experiences with remanufactured motors.

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[Gnarly4X]

I could buy these parts from LCE for 22R/RE rebuild....

Machined Block – 750
Head w/o cam – 550
Cam – 200
Crankshaft 500
Master Rebuld kit – 600
Rods – 180
Main bearings – 60
Rod crank bearings 60

That’s $2900 without sales tax or shipping. 

Gee, now I have all the parts ready to assemble … 

Or I can order a fully assembled Stage 1 Long Block from 22RE Performance for $2500.  $2900 with a core charge.

24 weeks!!! 

 Hhhhmmm… let’s see…??....  what would bestgen do? 

Gnarls. 

[Toybrota [OP]]

I could buy these parts from LCE for 22R/RE rebuild....

Machined Block – 750
Head w/o cam – 550
Cam – 200
Crankshaft 500
Master Rebuld kit – 600
Rods – 180
Main bearings – 60
Rod crank bearings 60

That’s $2900 without sales tax or shipping. 

Gee, now I have all the parts ready to assemble … 

Or I can order a fully assembled Stage 1 Long Block from 22RE Performance for $2500.  $2900 with a core charge.

24 weeks!!! 

 Hhhhmmm… let’s see…??....  what would bestgen do? 

Gnarls. 

That's actually a really good deal, might save for that!

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