Topic: Blown headgasket issues??

[Cheesemaker]

OK, this headgasket repair is getting expensive!!  And I am finding that most parts house employees are idiots.  Even with the computer and their 20 questions, they couldn't figure their way out of a paper bag!!     Of course my very knowledgeable parts guy has been out dealing with family stuff, until today.  I ended up buying more gaskets than I needed!    But now I have spares.


-Head came back all clean.
-22REPerformance stuff is VERY nice.  The headgasket is 10's better than Fel-Pro.  I didn't get the exhaust gasket from him, and I should have.  The paper one from Fel-Pro doesn't look like its up to par.  But all the other gaskets in the kit I need will work. 
-Got all new exhaust nuts and had to get one more, since I am going from the 20R ex mani to the right one, 22R, I needed to swap out some bolts, and add another.
-Used belt sander to clean up mating surface of ex mani.  Used straight edge to true it up.
-All oils, coolants, filters, hoses, t-stat, gasket, nuts and washers needed.
-Borrowed BIL's bucket of o-rings.  He has $2000 worth of O-rings in containers all nicely organized in a 5 gallon bucket.  He operates a Stroker/Processor in the woods, and needs to have parts to fix anything on the fly when possible.  I needed 3 o-rings, so I got 2 of each.  Spares.
-And now just wait for my buddy to help me assemble the head, and then put everything back together, and then we should have one more day to start and time it.  Can't wait.

I will try to get photos of the head gaskets and show a comparison. 

[Gnarly4X]

20/22 Exhaust studs/nuts...

I will NOT use the factory exhaust manifold locking nuts.

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100729.0;message=1125437

Although the guys at 22RE Performance are very knowledgeable and sell very high quality parts.....their comments on their site that the exhaust studs in the head get brittle, and sell the stock-looking locking nuts, is somewhat misleading.  If you should attempt to remove the studs from an old head, you will most likely destroy the threads in the alloy head, then you will need to tap and heli-coil the threads in the head.

In my experience the brittle studs have nothing to do with the issue with exhaust manifold or header leaking at the gasket.  The factory style locking nuts' clamping pressure will cause the studs to spin inside the head when attempting to torque or loosen the nuts on the studs, then you cannot get the header or exhaust manifold tight enough against the gasket and header..... you get that very irritating exhaust leak!

From 22RE Performance site...
Quote: 
Due to the countless number of heat cycles yours have been through, it makes the studs incredibly brittle. When you try to remove yours, you’ll pull most of the aluminum from the thread holes along with them. The last thing you need when installing a new engine is to break a stud during install. Take our word for it, you don’t want try to re-use yours.  Our kit includes all 8 OE studs and 8 OE self locking nuts and 2 OE bolts for the air injection / block-off plate at the upper exhaust manifold.  $55.00 for the kit. Unquote

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

OK, this headgasket repair is getting expensive!!  And I am finding that most parts house employees are idiots.  Even with the computer and their 20 questions, they couldn't figure their way out of a paper bag!!     Of course my very knowledgeable parts guy has been out dealing with family stuff, until today.  I ended up buying more gaskets than I needed!    But now I have spares. 

I agree with all of those statements!

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

My experience with the 22RE exhaust manifold:

Had an exhaust leak,  tried tightening rear studs,   they pulled out of head.

Took off manifold,  it was warped,  so I needed to get it surfaced so it would seal.

Then because I'd lost 2 studs holes,  I drilled out all the holes and put in threaded inserts so there was no way they'd pull out again.

And because I'm thrifty, I used SAE instead of metric  ( 3/8 vs  10mm) and cut to length a stainless steel threaded rod instead of studs. (and stainless nuts).     

This is a low torque application, so you don't need grade 5 or 8, and stainless is stronger than grade 2 (close to 5) and it won't corrode.

[OTO Phil]

If you can, get REMFLEX exhaust gaskets! Hands down the best I've experienced! I haven't had to retorque once, and it's been 3 years since the rebuild! They're based out of WA

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

[Gnarly4X]

My experience with the 22RE exhaust manifold:

Had an exhaust leak,  tried tightening rear studs,   they pulled out of head.

Took off manifold,  it was warped,  so I needed to get it surfaced so it would seal.

Then because I'd lost 2 studs holes,  I drilled out all the holes and put in threaded inserts so there was no way they'd pull out again.

And because I'm thrifty, I used SAE instead of metric  ( 3/8 vs  10mm) and cut to length a stainless steel threaded rod instead of studs. (and stainless nuts).     

This is a low torque application, so you don't need grade 5 or 8, and stainless is stronger than grade 2 (close to 5) and it won't corrode.

Yeah.. I'm not a metallurgist, but I think SS is less reactive to the alloy head, so the threads would not corrode as bad as steel.

Gnarls.

[Cheesemaker [OP]]

Downside of Stainless is it galls easily.


I had to pull one of my exh studs, and it came out fairly easily.  But I took it slowly because I used thread locker, and not wanting to strip anything.  And I Never Seized everything else that didn't get thread locker.  At one point, I will be making another order to 22REPerformance, and I will be getting more exhaust nuts, when I order his exh gasket.  But that will be later this year, when I upgrade to larger radiator. 

[:)bestgen4runner]

Secrets to No problems with Manifold to head leaks.
#1 Have your exhaust manifold or header surfaced. (Makes a huge difference having a flat surface to seal)
#2 use the Factory exhaust manifold gasket. (Its expensive, Good things always are)
#3 Replace all the exhaust studs and nuts with new and the correct length. (Use the factory stuff, Its not that expensive and they are unique lengths)
#4 Use a torque wrench to tighten the exhaust manifold lock nuts. (Every one of them should tighten to spec, If not it was going to leak)
#5 Warm everything to operating Temp, Full hot. Then While its hot, Jump back in there and retorque everything. (WHILE ITS HOT!, NOT AFTER)
#6 (optional) I use the copper Headgasket spray/exhaust spray on both sides of the gasket.

If you do this You will never have a problem with the exhaust manifold leaking. Do it right, Do it once, and never think about it again. 
   

[Gnarly4X]

Secrets to No problems with Manifold to head leaks.
#1 Have your exhaust manifold or header surfaced. (Makes a huge difference having a flat surface to seal)
#2 use the Factory exhaust manifold gasket. (Its expensive, Good things always are)
#3 Replace all the exhaust studs and nuts with new and the correct length. (Use the factory stuff, Its not that expensive and they are unique lengths)
#4 Use a torque wrench to tighten the exhaust manifold lock nuts. (Every one of them should tighten to spec, If not it was going to leak)
#5 Warm everything to operating Temp, Full hot. Then While its hot, Jump back in there and retorque everything. (WHILE ITS HOT!, NOT AFTER)
#6 (optional) I use the copper Headgasket spray/exhaust spray on both sides of the gasket.

If you do this You will never have a problem with the exhaust manifold leaking. Do it right, Do it once, and never think about it again. 
   

This may work once, and may work well for others, but in my experience (all 3 of my 22s), after 100K+ miles on the stock exhaust manifold, factory gasket, and nuts, the nuts will NOT loosen without spinning the studs in the head, and will NOT torque to spec when retightening, or replacing the stock manifold with a header without spinning the studs in the head -- when attempting to use the stock nuts.

Maybe it's just been my bad luck?

Gnarls.

[Gillesdetrail]

If you can, get REMFLEX exhaust gaskets! Hands down the best I've experienced! I haven't had to retorque once, and it's been 3 years since the rebuild! They're based out of WA

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

That's what I have and I agree with you statement! At the dealership the oem exhaust gasket was 228$ (edit: this was for the gaskets with the full shields, in qc, canada  - oem simple gasket can be had for around 50$ usd), I have tried many different ones that always ended up leaking (yes torques to spec, exhaust side resufaced, bolted from the inside out, lock tite etc) and I have no issues since I instaled the remflex gasket and it cost me around 50$, a good quality piece, it will seal even if the head or header is slightly warped.

[:)bestgen4runner]

That's what I have and I agree with you statement! At the dealership the oem exhaust gasket was 228$, I have tried many different ones that always ended up leaking (yes torques to spec, exhaust side resufaced, bolted from the inside out, lock tite etc) and I have no issues since I instaled the remflex gasket and it cost me around 50$, a good quality piece, it will seal even if the head or header is slightly warped.

Wow,
Your local dealer really marks there parts up. $228 ?

[Gnarly4X]

Wow,
Your local dealer really marks there parts up. $228 ?

Is this it?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1717335120-Genuine-Toyota-GASKET-EXHAUST-17173-35120/182382081964?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Da9a1f1096207446093ad991ff4c14246%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D221640303424


http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-1717335120-GENUINE-OEM-MANIFOLD-GASKET-/221640303424?fits=Make%3AToyota%7CModel%3APickup&hash=item339acaa340:g:LUMAAOSw3mpXHy3w&vxp=mtr

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Is this it?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1717335120-Genuine-Toyota-GASKET-EXHAUST-17173-35120/182382081964?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Da9a1f1096207446093ad991ff4c14246%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D221640303424


http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-1717335120-GENUINE-OEM-MANIFOLD-GASKET-/221640303424?fits=Make%3AToyota%7CModel%3APickup&hash=item339acaa340:g:LUMAAOSw3mpXHy3w&vxp=mtr

Gnarls.

 
Yep.....

[Gnarly4X]

I'm ordering this one.

https://www.carid.com/remflex/exhaust-gasket-mpn-7002.html?filter=1&view=071390&year_id=4773

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

That's good stuff.
Just do all the other steps and you should be golden.

[Gnarly4X]

That's good stuff.
Just do all the other steps and you should be golden.

Okie Dokie Smokie!! 

Gnarls.

[Gillesdetrail]

Wow,
Your local dealer really marks there parts up. $228 ?

They told me the only one still available at the dealership was the exhaust manifold gasket that is one piece with the heatshield, they showed me the picture and I had never seen it before, it was one piece with the full lower and outer heatshield all together. We checked for 20r and 22r with my VIN and the parts manager, maybe it is different in my part of the world since there are only a handfull of first gens left so many parts aren't available anymore at the dealership. For parts I get cost + 20% but it is often cheaper to order on the internet through american dealerships.

I have edited my post above to avoid misguidance.

[Gillesdetrail]

This is the exact model I ordered
https://www.yotashop.com/remflex-hi-crush-exhaust-manifold-header-gasket-20r-22r/

It is very thick and re-usable, just don't bend it at all! I bent it slightly when unpackaging and I cracked it, it doesn't leak though but they are easy to break if you bend them.

[OTO Phil]

This is the exact model I ordered
https://www.yotashop.com/remflex-hi-crush-exhaust-manifold-header-gasket-20r-22r/

It is very thick and re-usable, just don't bend it at all! I bent it slightly when unpackaging and I cracked it, it doesn't leak though but they are easy to break if you bend them.

Ummm.. not reusable.. unless you meant on the exact same head and header..

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[Gillesdetrail]

Ummm.. not reusable.. unless you meant on the exact same head and header..

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Yes, I have removed and re-installed my header more times that I can remember and re-used the gasket without problem, can't say the same about the gasket that came in my gasket rebuild kit, or a felpro one I used after that. They are 1/8th thick I believe, crush 50% and spring back 30% they say, I would be confident in using it on another engine or header as well but have not tried it.

[emsvitil]

The stainless nuts on the stainless stud won't rust weld together.

The threaded insert into the head had high strength locktite, and the stud into the threaded insert had medium locktite.


Then I used flanged serrated nuts so they wouldn't loosen.




I also believe you can get away with the cheap manifold gasket if you have the manifold surfaced (I did)

[Cheesemaker [OP]]

I almost got nuts like those Emsvitil.  But they only had 4 of them.  So, I went to my hardware store, and found the 10X1.25 nuts and lock washers.  Which was the same as I had on there before.  I think I need to replace them every couple years, to keep things fresh. 

I did surface my ex mani.  I used a straight edge and my belt sander, and I got it pretty good.  I will see how long the Fel-Pro gasket lasts.  It looks to be paper, and some metal.  The one I took off, had the graphite material on it, and it crushed pretty good, for a good seal.



OH, and if your head has the pear shaped exhaust, and your truck is 87 or older, get the gasket kit for an 88 or higher.  87 and lower come with just holes.  I learned this the hard way this weekend.  And going from a 20R mani to a proper 22R mani, I had to move 1 stud, and add another.  If you look at the 2, there will be a difference between the gaskets between the #2 and #3 cylinders. 




So some head gasket comparison.  I ordered the OEM one from Putney.  Along with a couple other gaskets.  Well, I didn't need 2 of the 3 gaskets.  But I screwed up and should have ordered the exhaust gasket.  They measure the same thickness, just a hair over 1/16" of an inch.  But the OEM looks and feels alot better than the Fel-Pro one.  The Fel-Pro has a sticky coating over both sides.  And is flimsy when handling it.  Alot of the holes had metal surrounds in the OEM, Fel-Pro did not. You can see all the metal in the OEM, but the metal in the Fel-Pro was covered with the gasket material. 

OEM on the left/top, Fel-Pro on the right/bottom.





OEM has this extra seal for the timing chain area.  In the FSM they say to put sealant over the joint between the timing cover and block.  Well you don't have to do it with this gasket.



The metal between the cylinders and around the cylinders on the Fel-Pro was rough, but the OEM was smooth. 


I also ordered the Putney intake gasket with the added rubber bead around the coolant ports.  Come to find out Fel Pro does it on all the ports.  But they only do it for the head, and not the union for the upper and lower intake.  hmm.  They also did this for a couple smaller gaskets.  The OEM Putney one has a nice rubberized feel to it, and the Fel Pro feels like paper.


I will be making another order from Putney for the longer exhaust studs, and exhaust gasket.  I got my air injection block offs today in the mail, and they are really thick.  The stud is flush with the end of the stud, but that is without a lock washer in there.  But that will happen in a couple months.  Things are getting expensive.  And I need it running soon!!

[Gnarly4X]

Hey Cheesemaker,

That is an interesting comparison, and I assume you are attempting to judge the “quality”.

Just to comment on judging the quality based upon visual and feel.  The OEM product is designed for production at the factory, first time install.  The aftermarket product is designed for post-factory installation.  In terms of design criteria, the manufacturer, like Fel-Pro, may development their gaskets for the conditions most often found in the post-factory use and aftermarket headers.

Without a complete, technical, and scientific understanding of the specific materials being used, and how those materials respond to heat and pressure at the point of install and over time, the “feel and thickness” may or may not be a valid judge of overall quality or lasting performance.

Using a belt sander to clean up the exhaust manifold is OK, if you are certain that the mating surface is perfectly flat.  I assume you used a feeler gauge and fine straight edge?

From my experience with new gaskets (OEM, Fel-Pro, and whosever comes with engbldr’s kit), the exhaust manifold or header nuts, once installed, need to be checked for proper torque very shortly after firing the engine – like within 1 hour of drive time.  Then again after a couple days, then again in a couple weeks - assuming the vehicle is being driven.

Also, I believe the exhaust leaks I’ve experienced in my 22s have been caused by improper clamping against the head, the header mating surface not perfectly flat, and not necessarily the gasket used.

Based upon the comments from those who have used the Remflex exhaust gasket, I’m going to try one.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[redneckcustoms13]

I would still put a thin layer of sealant on both sides of that gasket where the head and front cover meet.

[knucklebuster]

When I installed my lce header I had to get longer exhaust studs, I went down to the local nut n bolt shop (valley wide fasteners) and got the studs and nuts. I explained what it was for and she came back with these 100% copper split lock nuts, she said all the race guys use em. I'm sold on em, I tightened my header down once, that was 5 years ago.

I take the whole retorqing with a grain of salt. I doubt it was done from the factory. You think they seriously went over every vehicle starting it and tightening bolts for weeks before they where shipped out?

If you get new studs get the tacoma ones with the torks head end. They are so much easier than the old double nut to tighten.

For the guy that got quoted a ridiculous price on a gasket 22reperformance can get any part a dealership can, I got the upgraded mini header and gasket for my tacoma from them, and yep only tightened once, that was 8k miles ago.

The only one I surfaced and torqued was the most recent rebuild and that was with sand paper an a counter top for a straight edge! The toyota exhaust gaskets just seem to seal really well, maybe I'm just lucky.

[Gnarly4X]

...  I take the whole retorqing with a grain of salt. I doubt it was done from the factory. You think they seriously went over every vehicle starting it and tightening bolts for weeks before they where shipped out? 

I don’t know what, if any, re-torque is done in the factory assembly line, but obviously re-torque is not required after you drive a new car off the dealer lot.

Comparing what comes down the assembly line at a Toyota factory and what a DIYer does in his garage after 100K miles, after a head job, or installing after market parts are two different things.

Doug Thorley recommends quote:  "retorquing all hardware after 20 minutes of operation"

Hooker Headers - Quote:  "Periodic re-tightening of header bolts is recommended."

FlowMaster Headers - Quote:  "Start the engine and check for leaks. Allow the engine to warm up, then shut the engine off and allow it to cool. Recheck the header bolts for correct tightness."

Doug's Headers - Quote: "Start the engine and allow it to warm up to operating temperature. Check for any unusual noises or exhaust leaks. If every thing is OK, stop the engine and tighten all bolts while the engine is still warm. NOTE: Check the bolts periodically to make sure they have not loosened. Re-tighten after the first 500 miles and then again at 1000 miles."

Retorqing/checking header nuts after several heat cycles is VERY common.... at least from my experience.... but I'm only 69 years old and been turning wrenches since I was about 8.

My Toyota 1986 Repair Manual shows the spec at 33 ft lbs of torque for manifold to head.  When I have re-installed the stock exhaust manifold or installed a new DT header on one of my 22s, I have never torqued the nuts down that much initially.  33 lbs on my clicker torque wrench feels like a lot… just my experience.  Please explain how using old or new factory self-clamping nuts allows for accurate torque readings?  Since I’ve experienced the studs spinning or pulling right out of the head, I have been careful not to have to drill, tap, and heli-coil the head - which is a real pain-in-the-arse to do while the head is on the engine!!

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Downside of Stainless is it galls easily. ...

Some, perhaps all, header manufacturers do not recommend stainless steel studs or nuts.

Gnarls.

[Cheesemaker [OP]]

Well, I am down to one lower radiator hose away from filling up with fluids, and starting.  I thought the lower radiator hose was good, until I went to hook it up to the radiator, and the other end was all swelled from oil.   So, by this time tomorrow, I should have it running.   


I didn't get to use the exhaust manifold I wanted.  So, back to the old 20R style.      Exhaust studs weren't long enough for the Air injection plates I got.  And I didn't have any thinner scrap metal to make some. 

[kneedownnate]

Why are you using a 20r manifold?  They are the worst!

[Cheesemaker [OP]]

When I originally put my motor in, it was all I could find locally.  And now I have a 22r style.  But the air block off plates makes it too thick for the head studs.  And I should have gotten the longer exhaust studs when I made the gasket order with Putney, but I thought I would be fine.  And nobody in town has the longer studs, or even threaded rod in 10x1.25 thread. 

But my main goal was the headgasket, and I need to get it running.  My BIL's truck is starting to get sketchy to drive.  It is starting to randomly shut off while driving.    

Don't worry, I will be making another order from Putney in the future.  Next time it will be for the longer OE exhaust studs, ex manifold gasket, the harmonic balancer (mine has been leaking since it was rebuilt, and I am going to do it right!!), and a couple small things.  And then at the same time, I will upgrade to the V6 radiator.   

Once that is all done, then I am gonna tear apart the dual cases and start cleaning those up.