Topic: Zinc additive 22RE break in ?

[toyodaaddict]

Anyone know anything  about zinc additives?  I'm hoping to fire up my 22re rebuild tomorrow and am wondering if I should use some. 

[blackdiamond]

This is a question better suited for Bob is the Oil Guy forums.

[Gnarly4X]

Anyone know anything  about zinc additives?  I'm hoping to fire up my 22re rebuild tomorrow and am wondering if I should use some. 

Here's what I learned from my questions posed to two engine building experts I highly respect - one uses Joe Gibbs break in oil, but both said that my choice of Royal Purple Break in Oil is also excellent.  Royal Purple at O'Reilly's was $10 a quart, I bought 5 quarts.  It's not synthetic and I have seen it online at Walmart for $8.22 a quart.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

This is a question better suited for Bob is the Oil Guy forums.

The question is perfect for this forum.

Judging from my past research, I am skeptical about some of the things "Bob is the Oil Guy" says.

That's just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

LCE specifically says in bold print in their instructions to not use synthetic oils for oil additives.

[Gnarly4X]

Anyone know anything  about zinc additives?  I'm hoping to fire up my 22re rebuild tomorrow and am wondering if I should use some. 

toyodaaddict,

Before you fire your engine...

If you are questioning what break in oil you should use, you should consider, if you have not already done so, calling Tod at engbldr tomorrow morning before 9am and ask him what his break in procedure is.  Take notes.

Gnarls.

[toyodaaddict [OP]]

LCE specifically says in bold print in their instructions to not use synthetic oils for oil additives.

did you mean to say 'or oil additives'? Just checking.  I will not be using synthetic at any time.

Right now I've got castrol gtx 10w 30 in there. I was told I should put some zinc additive in before I start it. I was gonna grab some lucas zinc break in additive but I dont really know if its a good idea or not.

[Gnarly4X]

... Right now I've got castrol gtx 10w 30 in there. I was told I should put some zinc additive in before I start it. I was gonna grab some lucas zinc break in additive but I dont really know if its a good idea or not.

toyodaaddict,

I'm probably not saying anything you don't already know... but this is just my 2 cents...

Like the "recommended" break-in procedure...  There are a number of opinions and some debate on what to use for break-in oil.  The consensus seems to be that a higher level ZDDP should be in the oil.  Because ZDDP breaks down in the oil rather quickly, 500 to 1,000 miles max seems to be the recommended time it should be in the engine during break-in.  The variables that will affect a proper break-in has a lot to do how the cylinder walls were honed, tolerances, care during assembly, and the quality of components used.

Whether you use straight dino, dino plus additives, or synthetic, is obviously a matter of choice and experience.

From my perspective, because I'm a loooooong way from an expert engine builder, I have to believe that John at LCE, Jerry at 22RE Performance, Tod & Ted at engbldr, and Travis at Chuck's Speed Center, know their $h!t, so I listen and take notes, THEN I make my own decisions..

My thinking is to be on the side of caution when breaking in a newly rebuilt engine.  I'll have over $4,000 invested in my engine rebuild, so I don't want to end up rebuilding a botched build.

That's just my practically worthless opinion.

Gnarls.

[OVRAROK]

I ran brad penn 30wt break in oil in my 22re after rebuild

[ThorInc]

I was always told never to break-in with synthetic.  Lots of reputable companies, Liqi Moly and Amsoil break-in products come to mind.

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[blackdiamond]

The question is perfect for this forum.

Judging from my past research, I am skeptical about some of the things "Bob is the Oil Guy" says.

That's just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.

I find that oil discussion are almost the same genre as politics and religion because very few people have anything beyond preconceived expectations and isolated experiences. Oil is almost never the mode of failure and the difference in wear between the best and worst is for the most part a nonissue.

When it comes to break-in oils it seems that synthetics are generally avoided. The primary difference between conventional and synthetic is that there is less friction with a synthetic. I am pretty sure Corvettes used to be filled with Mobil 1 at the factory but can't say if there was an additive or not. My friend purchased a new 2001 Acura RSX and the dealer "refused" to chance the oil prior to 10,000 miles and indicated that there was some break-in oil used. Clearly Acura has a reliable product.

So, if conventional is better than synthetic for break-in (and not just faster at doing the job) than synthetics then the question is what part an additive would play. Is it making increasing or decreasing the friction? 

Assembly lube makes a lot of sense to me because at initial startup oil simply cannot be everywhere immediately. Additives poured in don't really solve this issue.

ZDDP is an additive from the past that at one time seemed to be almost a necessity for a flat tappet configuration (I honestly don't know much about how it work vs. other designs) but my understanding is that current formulation are up to the task. Clearly just an opinion.

Additive can be functional or market driven. The hard part is knowing which provide a true benefit.

I doubt any break-in oil will do any harm so there really no downside. The question is how one would measure the long term benefit from using one. There are so many factors in play it is almost impossible to identify any on factor and give it the credit or blame. We all like to do it though and it makes for fun discussions.

[toyodaaddict [OP]]

I think I'm going to go with the Joe Gibbs break in oil. It's expensive and will put me out another 5-6 days, but its what 22reperformance recommends and thats who's parts I'm using. Mostly I just hate having to wait any longer, I't seems I've been working/waiting on this motor forever.  Thanks guys

[Gnarly4X]

...I find that oil discussion are almost the same genre as politics and religion because very few people have anything beyond preconceived expectations and isolated experiences. Oil is almost never the mode of failure and the difference in wear between the best and worst is for the most part a nonissue.

This is true.

When it comes to break-in oils it seems that synthetics are generally avoided. The primary difference between conventional and synthetic is that there is less friction with a synthetic. I am pretty sure Corvettes used to be filled with Mobil 1 at the factory but can't say if there was an additive or not. My friend purchased a new 2001 Acura RSX and the dealer "refused" to chance the oil prior to 10,000 miles and indicated that there was some break-in oil used. Clearly Acura has a reliable product.

So, if conventional is better than synthetic for break-in (and not just faster at doing the job) than synthetics then the question is what part an additive would play. Is it making increasing or decreasing the friction? 

Assembly lube makes a lot of sense to me because at initial startup oil simply cannot be everywhere immediately. Additives poured in don't really solve this issue.

ZDDP is an additive from the past that at one time seemed to be almost a necessity for a flat tappet configuration (I honestly don't know much about how it work vs. other designs) but my understanding is that current formulation are up to the task. Clearly just an opinion.

Additive can be functional or market driven. The hard part is knowing which provide a true benefit.

I doubt any break-in oil will do any harm so there really no downside. The question is how one would measure the long term benefit from using one. There are so many factors in play it is almost impossible to identify any on factor and give it the credit or blame. We all like to do it though and it makes for fun discussions.

Besides providing less friction, there are two other key benefits - first is that synthetics will flow better at lower temperatures.  This is very important in very cold climates, since generally cold starts creates more component wear.  If I lived in a very cold climate, I'd be running ALL synthetics in all grease, diff oil, tranny oil, t-case oil, U-joints, wheel bearings, chassis lube, and crankcase.

The other factor is synthetics are engineered to absorb more by products from combustion of the fuel, so it will not break down as quickly as dino oil.

My 2013 Corolla's factory recommended maintenance for oil and filter change interval is 10,000, and came with its recommended 0-20 viscosity synthetic.  The use of synthetic oil typically allows for extended oil change intervals.

I now run Mobil 1 5-20 and will change the oil and filter every 7,000 miles, simply because it's got almost 75,000 miles on it.  Whether or not changing oil 3,000 sooner than factory recommended maintenance doesn't matter if there is any actual difference in wear factor, I will do it just to make myself feel better.

The ZDDP additive is to protect engine components that will be under extreme pressure at first fire on a newly rebuilt engine during break-in.... and it works.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

This is true.


Besides providing less friction, there are two other key benefits - first is that synthetics will flow better at lower temperatures.  This is very important in very cold climates, since generally cold starts creates more component wear.  If I lived in a very cold climate, I'd be running ALL synthetics in all grease, diff oil, tranny oil, t-case oil, U-joints, wheel bearings, chassis lube, and crankcase.

The other factor is synthetics are engineered to absorb more by products from combustion of the fuel, so it will not break down as quickly as dino oil.

My 2013 Corolla's factory recommended maintenance for oil and filter change interval is 10,000, and came with its recommended 0-20 viscosity synthetic.  The use of synthetic oil typically allows for extended oil change intervals.

I now run Mobil 1 5-20 and will change the oil and filter every 7,000 miles, simply because it's got almost 75,000 miles on it.  Whether or not changing oil 3,000 sooner than factory recommended maintenance doesn't matter if there is any actual difference in wear factor, I will do it just to make myself feel better.

The ZDDP additive is to protect engine components that will be under extreme pressure at first fire on a newly rebuilt engine during break-in.... and it works.

Gnarls.

From what I've read the most wear in a long drain application seems to occur at the beginning of the run which indicates that there's likely more wear from changing oil that's still doing it's job than from leaving it alone.  I've starting running Mobil 1 Extended Performance in my 2008 Civic and 2004 Sequoia.  I follow the OLM on the Civic (OEM recommendation is 5w-20 conventional) and it goes about 7,500 miles.  I did some testing on the Sequoia and run it 10,000 miles and feel comfortable that it's not pushing the life of the oil.  I'll probably have another sample tested after the next run since it was just changed.

If you were to build two identical engines and use a ZDDP additive in one and not the other, what would you expect to be the difference between the two engines in the short term and long term?  I think part of the issue with synthetic in new motors is cost since many people do a very short change interval on a new motor and also it will find leak paths that conventional won't which gives everything a better chance to seat and seal up.

[OTO Phil]

Just to throw my $.02 in to the OP's question:
Zinc is imperative to the proper break-in procedure. When i drove away from ENGNBLDR's shop, Tod told me specifically to only run conventional oil during the break-in.

Zinc additive so that any rust/corrosion sticks to it, and will drain out after the first oil change.. after about 3 hours of alternations RPMs from idle to about 2500..
But yeah, I'd call Tod tomorrow morning first thing.. "ENGINE PARTS-ORDER DESK!" Lol

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[H8PVMNT]

For breaking in my 22r last year I used regular oil with some kind of additive with zinc, I don't remember which one.  It wasn't anything fancy, just an additive with the ZDDP listed in it. I think it was maybe a Gunk brand they had at our local hardware.  Anyway, I changed oil after a 30-45 minute run in, then again after 500 miles, with the same additive in that oil too.  Then I went to napa house brand conventional oil in 10-30 or 5-30 depending on the season, with no additives. I think the napa oil is re-badged Valvoline.  I change oil about every 3K. I also used liberal amounts of assembly lube on everything when I put it together. 

The engine has come in nicely and doesn't burn a drop of oil after over 20,000 miles.  I can only assume the break in went well.

[blackdiamond]

For breaking in my 22r last year I used regular oil with some kind of additive with zinc, I don't remember which one.  It wasn't anything fancy, just an additive with the ZDDP listed in it. I think it was maybe a Gunk brand they had at our local hardware.  Anyway, I changed oil after a 30-45 minute run in, then again after 500 miles, with the same additive in that oil too.  Then I went to napa house brand conventional oil in 10-30 or 5-30 depending on the season, with no additives. I think the napa oil is re-badged Valvoline.  I change oil about every 3K. I also used liberal amounts of assembly lube on everything when I put it together. 

The engine has come in nicely and doesn't burn a drop of oil after over 20,000 miles.  I can only assume the break in went well.

I think you're correct about NAPA having a similar source to Valvoline.  It's likely to have changed, but I think most of the house brand oils tend to have weaker (i.e. don't last as long) additive packs in them.  Functions equally as well for a shorter period of time.  Bob is the Oil Guy likely has some VOA for them to compare.