Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[Gnarly4X]

Yeah, I see you used the early gasket, you need the late "pear" shape port gasket as liveoak pictured. For the exhaust? Don't use the FIPG. Find the reason your gaskets are failing. If your mating surfaces are flat look into an MLS or copper gasket. And definitely check your torque.

The subject of head gaskets and failures on these engines is deep and wide.  This topic can generate a highly heated conversation quickly.

From what I've learned now, there are several key factors that should be very carefully considered when doing a head job.

I believe the head gasket is too often blamed on the failure.  There are definitely some poorly designed head gaskets, and incorrectly selected for the head and block.

I highly recommend installing ARP studs.  The clamping torque across the entire head to block can be much better controlled and is more accurate than the head bolts.

As smart as those little Toyota engineers have been, the use of head "bolts" instead of studs and nuts is one of their design failures....  just my worthless opinion.

Head surface and block deck machine prep is very critical.

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

The manufacturer uses fasteners that allow assembly without a retorque. The practice of saving money. The bolts they use are just elastic tensioners, as are most fasteners. The best way to get a good long lasting seal is to ensure flat smooth mating surfaces with an even pressure. If it's done right, even the cheap gaskets can last longer than you might think. Using metal gaskets is really the best, but even then, a lack of attention to detail can make the best gasket fail. Overheating the engine can change the metal hardness and destroy metal bonds of the alloying metals causing a varying expansion rate throughout the part. The effect is minimal, but can cause inconsistent pressures on the gasket which can, over time, cause a failure. Another thing that causes inconsistent pressure points on the gasket is cutting a badly warped head to flat. The head is still warped!

Which is why you need a good, reputable machinist and mechanic that knows the difference and won't use crap parts.

[Cheesemaker]

One thing that hasn't been discussed about MLS gaskets, is the block and head need to be machined to a RA factor of 19.  If you don't, then headgasket failure will happen. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

One thing that hasn't been discussed about MLS gaskets, is the block and head need to be machined to a RA factor of 19.  If you don't, then headgasket failure will happen. 

Hey C.....

The specific RA number may have been posted, but I did find this....


Engine / Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Message by EASYRYDERDANGER on Feb 10, 2019, 05:57:14 PM »
Im all about machining block w/timing cover and cylinder surfaces with proper RA finish and using mls gasket


Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

The manufacturer uses fasteners that allow assembly without a retorque. The practice of saving money. The bolts they use are just elastic tensioners, as are most fasteners. The best way to get a good long lasting seal is to ensure flat smooth mating surfaces with an even pressure. If it's done right, even the cheap gaskets can last longer than you might think. Using metal gaskets is really the best, but even then, a lack of attention to detail can make the best gasket fail. Overheating the engine can change the metal hardness and destroy metal bonds of the alloying metals causing a varying expansion rate throughout the part. The effect is minimal, but can cause inconsistent pressures on the gasket which can, over time, cause a failure. Another thing that causes inconsistent pressure points on the gasket is cutting a badly warped head to flat. The head is still warped!

Which is why you need a good, reputable machinist and mechanic that knows the difference and won't use crap parts.

Hey deucie...

Those are very good points.

I'm not an engine builder, but I definitely learned a lot having gone through this experience.

I know now that building, and especially re-building, one of these simple engines takes more "precision" than believed by many.   

In fact, because it is a relatively simple design, perhaps it takes even MORE careful attention to the specs, tolerances, and components.

Just because the early 20s and 22s are relatively simple in engine design does not mean they require less precision... the specs are the specs.

Why does it take Jim at 22RE Performance about 40 hours to build an engine?

As good as the Toyota engineers were, the engines do have some "design flaws" - namely the timing chain and guides, and the coolant port on the 3rd chamber in the head.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[OVRAROK]

Gnarls, have you strategized a plan to get your beloved toyota back on the road ?

[OVRAROK]

Gnarls, Jim at 22reperformance is taking orders. Looks like you'll need to send your engine. 10 days at his shop, then back on a pallet heading back to you. Now is the time.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE 10-5-2022 PM

I spoke to Jim at 22RE Performance this afternoon.

I will be setting up a schedule with Jerry this week.

It may be several weeks to a month before I'll have the tranny dropped and the engine pulled and ready to ship to 22RE Performance.

My old body (I'll be 75 years old in January!! ) has gone south a little more than I expected, so I'll need to be careful.

Running and working out at the gym for 25 years has worn out some body parts! 

Working in the garage isn't like it was a few years back.

I'm really excited about the long blocks that Jim is now building - dyno'd and broken in!!

I'll update THIS project as I go.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Jim at 22RE Performance repeated again that he has seen lots of failures with the DNJ rings and head gaskets.

So.... perhaps  my "engine rebuilding skills" is NOT to blame for the oil consumption, ring failure, engnbldr DNJ RV head, and head gasket failure.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

This 1986 Xtracab only has 151,189 original miles on odometer.

I am looking forward to completing the restoration to factory stock as much as possible.

It will be my daily driver and I can hardly wait to start driving it again! 

Gnarls.

[mudmaster]

Get er done!

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Get er done!

Hey Mud....

Yes sir, I'm working on it again.

Since the rebuild failure, I have gone through all kinds of emotions.  Getting a new engine installed and my truck drivable again will hopefully make me forget about how unlucky I was.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Is it for sale now? did it ever get fixed?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Hey Bgen.....

It is still sitting on jack stands in my garage.

I was about to pull the engine and suddenly got side tracked with some family stuff and a surgery.

I postponed pulling the engine

I am not interested in selling it and hoping to get the new rebuild in it before the end of this year.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  JANUARY 22, 2024.

Wow... it's been way too long having to look at my truck sitting on jack stands.

When I parked it in my garage and put in jack stands I had no thoughts that it would be this long before putting an engine in it.

There have been lots life things since then and the pandemic coupled with family members passing has been a primary focus.

I've been saving up some money.

I'm leaning heavily at buying a 22RE stroker long block from LC Engineering in Lake Havasu City.

I really wanted to buy a long block built by Jim at 22RE Performance, BUT... the logistics and time is more difficult for me to manage.

It's about 3.5 hours from my house to LC Engineering.

I can rent a pickup to haul it for about $130 a day, with fuel and other expenses, the trip over and back might be $250.

I have a cherry picker so I can unload it when I get home.

LCE will build it and break it in on their dyno.

My preliminary plan is to have it in my truck before November 2024.

My physicality has gone south in the last 3 years, so I'm hoping my old body will let me drop the tranny, pull the engine and stick in the new one!

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Instead of using a jack from under the truck to lower the trans you can have use the hoist boom and a strap to lower the trans from inside the cab.
Or use straps to support the trans in the tunnel and remove the engine with the trans in the vehicle. Run the strap through the cab and under the bell housing. Don't have to remove the trans at all. Removing the front driveshaft isn't necessary either, but might make it a little easier. I removed the front  shaft when I did it this way. I've done the hoist with a strap through the shifter hole as well.

Injuries make you creative.

Inviting a buddy over to help does wonders as well!

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Instead of using a jack from under the truck to lower the trans you can have use the hoist boom and a strap to lower the trans from inside the cab.
Or use straps to support the trans in the tunnel and remove the engine with the trans in the vehicle. Run the strap through the cab and under the bell housing. Don't have to remove the trans at all. Removing the front driveshaft isn't necessary either, but might make it a little easier. I removed the front  shaft when I did it this way. I've done the hoist with a strap through the shifter hole as well.

Injuries make you creative.

Inviting a buddy over to help does wonders as well!

Hey deucie....

Well.... I appreciate the suggestions.

I'm sure there are guys out there that have lots of experience pulling engines out of these little trucks.. I'm not one of them.

Just pulling the engine out of truck without the tranny was a tricky manipulation.

I cannot imagine trying to pull the engine out of the engine bay WITH the tranny connected.

And even more tricky would be trying to get it back into the engine bay.

Adding another 200 lbs of tranny and t-case I have to man-handle as it dangles from my cherry picker would make me very nervous.

I would rather get mauled by a mamma grizzly bear than have to drop the tranny, but I will drop the tranny.

I've been out of 4-wheeing since 2000, so my "buddy list" is very short for guys that would be willing to come over and work with me.

However, my "buddy list" of gun-toting, Bible-clinging deplorables is substantial. 

And... throughout my years of working on my cars and trucks, I've always preferred to work solo.

I'm slower than the average auto mechanic, and probably more anal about what I'm doing.

Gnarls.

[a1gemmel]

I wouldn't bother dropping the trans - put a jack under the front of the trans to support it, pull the radiator, remove the hood, engine will come right out. Remove the tires and lower the truck down, then you don't have to have the crane so scary high. If I wasn't a few states away I'd come give you a hand.

[sirdeuce]

Oh, I wasn't suggesting pulling the engine and trans as a unit, using the strap holds the trans in place while you separate it from the engine in the bay.

It's just another way to do what a1gemmel suggests with a jack stand, which I have done, but if strapped properly the trans is more stable and the stand is out of the way when you crawl under the truck.

If you haven't tried this before, get yourself a couple of bolts, about 3" long of the same diameter and thread pitch (not recalling the size) of the larger bolts holding the bell housing to the block, cut off the head and slot that end for a flat screwdriver. Put those bolts into the block in the bottom ears. That'll give you a couple of guide pins to help align the engine and trans.

If you were only a couple of hours away I'd pop over to give a hand when you are ready. Hell, after the 2 hour drive from Atascadero to Fresno I'm useless for 2 days. From here to Arizona?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I wouldn't bother dropping the trans - put a jack under the front of the trans to support it, pull the radiator, remove the hood, engine will come right out. Remove the tires and lower the truck down, then you don't have to have the crane so scary high. If I wasn't a few states away I'd come give you a hand.

I certainly appreciate the kind offer to turn some wrenches with me!

If things went really south and I couldn't work in the garage, I sure at least 4 of you would be able to R&R my engine.

Once I get out into garage and my hand greasy, I'll getter done.

Gnarls.



 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Oh, I wasn't suggesting pulling the engine and trans as a unit, using the strap holds the trans in place while you separate it from the engine in the bay.

It's just another way to do what a1gemmel suggests with a jack stand, which I have done, but if strapped properly the trans is more stable and the stand is out of the way when you crawl under the truck.

If you haven't tried this before, get yourself a couple of bolts, about 3" long of the same diameter and thread pitch (not recalling the size) of the larger bolts holding the bell housing to the block, cut off the head and slot that end for a flat screwdriver. Put those bolts into the block in the bottom ears. That'll give you a couple of guide pins to help align the engine and trans.

If you were only a couple of hours away I'd pop over to give a hand when you are ready. Hell, after the 2 hour drive from Atascadero to Fresno I'm useless for 2 days. From here to Arizona?

Thanks deucie!!  That is way too generous.

Yes, I'm confident you, O, a1gemmel, and I think someone else offered back in past, would bring some serious automechanic wizardry!

I think I'll be OK once I get serious about getting the engine pulled and ordering the LCE Stoker Long Block.
 
Gnarls.