Topic: what to check next...please help It is fixed!!!! woohoo. btw I'm an idiot

[toby]

So after arcing the head across my battery during removal, my truck still will not run. 87 Toyota pickup, 22r carbed. I have replaced fuses that blew, fusible links and relays. It will fire run for maybe 2 to 5 minutes than die. I have replaced the coil and ignitor as well as the carburetor. I put in a new fuel filter, and have checked the fuel pump for operation. If I pump the gas turn it over it will start and run for a few minutes then die, If I try to give it gas while dying it doesn't seem to do anything. I tried searching this topic and the only thing reasonably close I found to my symptoms was a warped intake manifold, wasn't sealing between the head and intake. The head i put on was off a efi truck, could this be my issue as well? Or does anybody have any other suggestions. Seems to me it not getting fuel, somebody please help.

[86bobbedtoy]

well if it runs I think you are ok, Check your spark when its running and when it dies see if it still sparks on the dieing rotation, if so it has spark and nothing is affecting it, if not you will know for sure if its in your firing. then on to fuel.
I hope you understand I didnt know how else to put it.

[toby [OP]]

It has spark, checked with timing light. What to check next? could the fuel pump not be pumping enough fuel?

[toby [OP]]

I thought maybe the pick up in the tank was plugged, but it will dump fuel at the filter from both directions after the short running times. I am thinking fuel pump any other ideas any one???

[jimbo74]

have you messed with the timing? the efi cams are a littel bit different than the carbed cams and that might be causing an issue

[jimbo74]

also do you have an electric fuel pump or mechanical? it being a carb?

[93tonkatoy]

get a fuel pressure gauge and let the engine run till it quits. when it starts dieing, watch the gauge to see if it drops pressure as it dies. If it runs at constant pressure(even after it dies) fuel pump/ screen should be ok. If the pressure drops off, then either the pump is faulty, or the screen is getting clogged with rust and or varnish. I can't recall the pressure range right now. If that is good, pull and check one of your spark plugs. That will tell you what is going on inside the engine. most repair manuals have color pages showing different conditions and what the mean to the engine.

oops, strike all that. I was thinking fuel injection. let it run till it starts to die, and tap on any flat spot gently, but firmly near the fuel inlet on the carb. if it catches and keeps running, then your float may have fuel on the inside. no floating/ not floating at the right level.

[toby [OP]]

I've set the cam timing, and ignition timing is on. What is the difference between the efi and carb, cams. This is the second carb I have run on it, it runs the same with both cams. Is the cam timing different on an efi engine. I set the cam timing the same as I have every other the head has been off it.

[toby [OP]]

The plugs are the same ones that were in the head when I installed it. The head only had about 300 miles on it. Is the gap different on efi motors vs. carb motors?

[toby [OP]]

should I put the carb cam on it? If I do this will I have to replace the head bolts again? I've heard that since they stretch when they are torqued, that they won't hold torque setting properly if they are reused.

[toby [OP]]

It has a mechanical pump. I am leaning towards the pump being the problem, or possibly a blockage between the pump and the carb? The carb is getting fuel with the engine shut off, if I pump the throttle linkage with it off I can hear the fuel spraying into the carb, and smell fuel as well.

[fordh8r]

should I put the carb cam on it? If I do this will I have to replace the head bolts again? I've heard that since they stretch when they are torqued, that they won't hold torque setting properly if they are reused.

These are not torque to yield bolts. They can be reused. 

It has a mechanical pump. I am leaning towards the pump being the problem, or possibly a blockage between the pump and the carb? The carb is getting fuel with the engine shut off, if I pump the throttle linkage with it off I can hear the fuel spraying into the carb, and smell fuel as well.

  I would try using carb cleaner when it starts to die. Just spray carb cleaner into the carb a little at a time and see if you can keep it running off the carb cleaner. If it stays running then I would suspect the fuel pump or possibly an issue with the carb. When it does run does it run very well? If so, I wouldn't expect to find a mechanical problem unless there is a large vac leak. You should hear a vac leak if it is big enough though.  Try this and tell us more as you progress. 

[toby [OP]]

I was able to keep it running by pouring fuel down the carb. I was told not to do this, something about holding a container of fuel and backfiring through the carb. Possibly burning toby. If I pull the fuel pump and pump it by hand it will pump fuel out of a container. I'm guessing not pumping enough fuel or a blockage between the pump and the carb???

[toby [OP]]

On the head bolts I was told they stretch a certain amount when they are torqued causing them to hold the torque setting. The new head bolts i purchased were abour 3/16" shorter than the ones that I puleed out which had been used atleast 3x.

[fordh8r]

On the head bolts I was told they stretch a certain amount when they are torqued causing them to hold the torque setting. The new head bolts i purchased were abour 3/16" shorter than the ones that I puleed out which had been used atleast 3x.

The 3/16" you mentioned is probably just the difference in MFG specs. They will stretch some as well. The amount of stretch might not be noticeable by the eye unless measured. When they say "Stretch" they don't mean that much. You're only talking several thousandths of an in (.000") when a bolt is torqued. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with using new bolts. To err on the safe side is always good. 

I was told not to do this, something about holding a container of fuel and backfiring through the carb. Possibly burning toby.

This is why I suggest carb cleaner since it is in a sealed container and will resist catching fire if your carb should cough. 

[Duffil]

On the head bolts I was told they stretch a certain amount when they are torqued causing them to hold the torque setting. The new head bolts i purchased were abour 3/16" shorter than the ones that I puleed out which had been used atleast 3x.

I've reused head bolts plenty of times, but yes they stretch and are not good forever.

I was able to keep it running by pouring fuel down the carb. I was told not to do this, something about holding a container of fuel and backfiring through the carb. Possibly burning toby. If I pull the fuel pump and pump it by hand it will pump fuel out of a container. I'm guessing not pumping enough fuel or a blockage between the pump and the carb???

possibly a bad pump or the short hose between the pump and carb is coming apart inside.  for the 30 bucks it would cost to change those and a fuel filter, I would swap all 3 and then see what happens.

I was able to keep it running by pouring fuel down the carb. I was told not to do this, something about holding a container of fuel and backfiring through the carb. Possibly burning toby.

[megolfer]

Could be the pickup coil in the distributor.  It can act weird by running on eminute and then not.  A lot of times it will run when cold and then once warmed up it wont.  It can also run fine and then be intermintant.  I would also check this out also.

[toby [OP]]

fuel filter  has been replaced, I am going to try the pump next, and clear out the lines between the engine bay and pump, and pump and carb.

[toby [OP]]

the ignitor and coil are changed out also.

[84pickup]

when my pickup coil went out it would either start or not start. i bought an ignition coil thinking it was that and found out that it was the pickup coil. really pissed off my dad because he bought the coil and then when it wasn't that he had to buy the pickup generator. that was on my 84 22R that sounds like maybe a carb or fuel pump problem maybe.

[megolfer]

THe pickup coil in in the distrubutar.  It can do some really weird things

[toby [OP]]

I will try the pick up coil too. I am guessing it is under the little black cover under the dist cap. I am still leaning towards fuel. I changed all the rubber lines blew the hard lines out with air and it ran for like 4 minutes. Just when I started to think it was fixed it died. Could I have screwed up the pick up coil when I arced the head across the battery?

[toby [OP]]

I tried the pick up coil off another distributor and it won't even fire with it. The distributor worked (kinda) on my truck before. How much clearance do I need btween the pick up coil and the little arms on my distributor??? I am guessing they need to be very close if not contacting, to send spark to the rotor. I will try another pick up coil and a different fuel pump tomorrow.

[84pickup]

you DO NOT want the coil touching anything in the distributor. if it hits the arms it will break the arms and the coil. i accidently did that with mine (didn't adjust air gap correctly when i installed it) but luckily it still works. if i could remember what the air gap is supposed to be i would tell you but i don't have my manual with me right now. so i would just get the smallest amount of space in between the coil and rotor and tighten it down. and yes the coil is behind the little black cover. maybe you've got junk in your tank and when you cleaned out the lines it cleared the system and then it sucked more crap up.

[toby [OP]]

It's not sucking crap off the bottom of the tank if I pull the fuel lines at the filter it will dump fuel from both sides of the filter. I am now 98% sure it is a fuel pump issue. I cut the lines off the fuel pump to change them again, there was fuel in the feed line and the return line, but little if any fuel in the in the line going to the carb. it seems to run a little longer now and tries a little harder to run when I pump the gas, but for what ever reason neither the original pump or the pick and pull pump seem to want to feed it. I found out about the space on the pick up coil the hard way as well, not necessarily the contact but the screws that hold the magnet on. I also now have a pick and pull distributor.

[TheCookieMonster]

get an electric fuel pump for starters.....those mechanical ones are ive went through a couple of em...the electric pump just makes it so much better...thats what your problem is i believe

[toby [OP]]

O.K. I found the problem. And by the wat I am an idiot. After my truck sat in my garage for close to a month, I changed out the fusible link panel all the links, relays and a couple blown fuses. I put in a new fuel filter, fuel lines cabruretor from pick and pull. Broke my distributor replaced with a distributor from pnp. Changed the pick up coil a couple times, removed the valve cover, checked the timing ignition and cam several times. Made new carb mounting gaskets, thoroughly cleaned my carb. Just to finally figure out that when I put the head and intake back on, I hooked the return line to the feed line and the feed line to the return line. So after switching fuel lines my truck runs again. I just have to go back and reswap carbs, the pick and pull doesn't run quite right. So all of you who have been so helpful, and recommended all these things to try can just me. And by the way thanks for all the help and suggestions.

[toby [OP]]

I also tried the pnp fuel pump, which did kinda work, but also had a sprayer effect. On the good side I have a $9 credit to pnp.

[fordh8r]

  ....... ..........    Glad you found your problem.   

[TheCookieMonster]

i would still get an aftermarket electric fuel pump....just one more thing you dont have to worry about!!! glad she works now