Author Topic: Interesting article regarding 5.71 gearset strength (Read 7117 times)

guywithuglyyota · « **on:** Nov 16, 2005, 04:28:58 AM »

Hope this isnt a repost. We all hear how the 5.71 gearsets are weak in comparison to 4.10 4.56 and even 4.88 gears... But this guy makes a good argument

Any one out there with real world experience on the trail with lockers, dual cases etc?

? AND running 5.71's???

I would immagine Cryo'd 5.71's might not be a bad alternative if your lacking gear on some hills/towing etc....

http://www.gearinstalls.com/410suck.htm

RHG · « **Reply #1 on:** Nov 16, 2005, 05:02:31 AM »

Hmmm thats a pretty interesting article. It all seems to make sense.

Willy Mammoth · « **Reply #2 on:** Nov 16, 2005, 05:10:19 AM »

Good points, When can I get mine?

unclejpl4x4 · « **Reply #3 on:** Nov 16, 2005, 06:44:52 AM »

wow i feel smarter and that dose not happen often.

whiteman · « **Reply #4 on:** Nov 16, 2005, 08:25:30 AM »

Very good point's, Makes me want 5.71's more and more.

guywithuglyyota · « **Reply #5 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 12:43:09 AM »

Well Im gonne be installing some of these 5.71 gears for an experiment.

I know it soudns like a stupid, expensive experiment to some, but I really wanna find out the deal here.

Im gonna have em treated by Bobby Long so that should help with shock loads atleast, which is apparently why gears fail in the first place.

A few searches on Pirate and the few that have ran them didnt have issues at all. And the one guy that did was running Genuine Gear - refered to as "pot metal" by some.

I will let ya guys know! But it will be a few weeks atleast cha ching!

Hyena · « **Reply #6 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 12:56:27 AM »

Although I do hear of more 5.71's breaking then other ratios. (not counting the 4.37's)

RHG · « **Reply #7 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 01:05:04 AM »

Hey I seen in a Mustang and Fast Fords <---

fast fords hahaa...but anyway...I seen in the mag where they "polish" ring and pinion sets in a tumbler with a mixture and it makes them up to 40% stronger because it takes stress risers off and what not. Dunno how true it is and what it would do for us 4wheelers but its something to look into. Do that AND have them cryo'ed and I bet they could handle pretty much anything. I'll check the mag and see if they mentioned a business name.

IronClad · « **Reply #8 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 02:03:40 AM »

the only 5.71s ive ever seen break where on a buds toyota running extremely grooved 42" tsls.. i mean these things look like all terrians they were so cut up. and you couldnt get them to slip on ice.. they would eat the ice away

wa4x4 · « **Reply #9 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 02:04:48 AM »

Good article~!

guywithuglyyota · « **Reply #10 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 07:03:12 AM »

Quote from: RHG on Dec 30, 2005, 01:05:04 AM

Hey I seen in a Mustang and Fast Fords <--- fast fords hahaa...but anyway...I seen in the mag where they "polish" ring and pinion sets in a tumbler with a mixture and it makes them up to 40% stronger because it takes stress risers off and what not. Dunno how true it is and what it would do for us 4wheelers but its something to look into. Do that AND have them cryo'ed and I bet they could handle pretty much anything. I'll check the mag and see if they mentioned a business name.

Sounds good, because I cant find anything like that on google. And if its not on google, then it doesent exist right?

skid · « **Reply #11 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 07:12:50 AM »

My thinking is the tooth count is not that relevant. The pinion diameter plays a bigger role I feel.

Shoyrtt · « **Reply #12 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 09:45:46 AM »

Quote from: 4LOWx2 on Nov 16, 2005, 04:28:58 AM

Hope this isnt a repost. We all hear how the 5.71 gearsets are weak in comparison to 4.10 4.56 and even 4.88 gears... But this guy makes a good argument

Any one out there with real world experience on the trail with lockers, dual cases etc?? AND running 5.71's???

I would immagine Cryo'd 5.71's might not be a bad alternative if your lacking gear on some hills/towing etc....

http://www.gearinstalls.com/410suck.htm

Great article.

I have a set of Cryo'd 5.29s from Bobby Long that should be going in soon behind dual

t-cases. In reviewing the conclusion, if your aftermarket gears are set up properly and maintained (change that gear oil after break-in) they should outlast stockers.

BigMike · « **Reply #13 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 10:18:25 AM »

Wow. I do not buy that article at all, not even for one second. Sure, with a 4.10 gear set you might see the ring gear failing more often, but that's because the pinion is ginormous! All of the 5.71 gear sets I've seen blew the crap out of the pinion gear. I mean, especially in the case of the 5.71, the ring gear seams stronger than the 4.10, so of course the pinion is the weak link.

Mix some axle wrap with the weakest pinion available for the Toyota 8" diff, and you get a broken pinion. End of discussion.

Also, after taking a Materials class, I have learned that Cryogenically Freezing Metal in order to make it stronger, is worthless when the metal is exposed to very large loads. If the material's designed yield stress is much greater than what it is exposed to, then Freezing the object in order to reduce the number of surface dislocations and to decrease grain size (thus reducing crack propaganda) will usually make the material tougher, not necessarily stronger, but tougher so that it will last longer without wearing or deforming. But if the material is already operating at loads that are close to or exceeding its designed yield stress, then freezing it will have no effect on preventing permanent plastic deformation (the object breaking).

At least that is what I learned. So Freezing a gear set makes more sense with the 4.10 gear set rather than the 5.71 gear set, because the 4.10 gear set can handle greater loads without breaking (deforming). Just like it would make more sense to freeze a FJ80 birfield then a mini truck birfield..

BigMike

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #14 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 10:23:18 AM »

the elocker i got had a 3:73 R&P and the ring and pinion both came apart

thats why i got it so cheap

BigMike · « **Reply #15 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 10:43:31 AM »

4.10s break... The E-Locker I got from FIREBALL had a wasted 4.10 gear set, that's why I also got it so cheap

I have heard that they changed the Formula Toy rules because of this. They used to only allow stock 4.10 gearing to be used, because it can save money -- since this is supposed to be a budget and family-friendly series -- but so many people have been blowing 4.10s that I believe they removed that rule

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #16 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 10:51:20 AM »

Quote from: BigMike on Dec 30, 2005, 10:43:31 AM

4.10s break... The E-Locker I got from FIREBALL had a wasted 4.10 gear set, that's why I also got it so cheap

I have heard that they changed the Formula Toy rules because of this. They used to only allow stock 4.10 gearing to be used, because it can save money -- since this is supposed to be a budget and family-friendly series -- but so many people have been blowing 4.10s that I believe they removed that rule

my elocker now sports 4:37's

whiteman · « **Reply #17 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 10:55:45 AM »

A buddy of mine just blew up his 5.29's that he has had about 1-1/2yrs going on 10k miles

RHG · « **Reply #18 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 04:00:37 PM »

Ok I checked my magazine and the company that does the polishing to parts to make them "stronger" is Mikronite Technologies www.mikronite.com I did a lil more reading into the article and it says that "The process is said to increase residual strength of the pinion by 44.6 percent..." Now I 'm not all that good with vocabulary but maybe BigMike or someone could explain exactly what residual strenght is.

crawlerdan · « **Reply #19 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 04:26:32 PM »

ive personally installed about 10 529 gearsets, and have owned about as many, and have NEVER even hurd a burp or had a shaveing out of one, and i get stupid with LOTS of horepower...i have however seen, with mine own eyes, seen a chryo set of 571s, in a 1700 rig with 40 horespower, ya 40, blown to hell and back, so bad that the pinion came out of the back of the housing and waved to everyone!!
5.29s=strong
chryo 529s=stronger
571=worthless

BigMike · « **Reply #20 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 05:43:27 PM »

Well, polishing parts is done to remove machine flaws on the surface, which could be sharp transitions and edges. If that site is talking about residual strength, all I remember is talking about residual compressive stresses which are a good thing to have, and are created from shot peening. The idea is to create residual compressive stresses on the surface and have tensile stresses on the interior of the metal. That way, in order for it to break, a crack must first overcome the residual compressive stress on the surface, which makes it less susceptible to plastic deformation.

I think it's the same effect of taking a piece of metal and putting it under pressure, like in a high pressure barometric chamber or submerging it in a liquid under pressure. Its easier to think about it this way. It would be harder for something to break under pressure because it would have to over come the yield stress of the material and the subjected pressures, assuming the material is solid anyways...

I only took one semester of this though, I still have a lot to learn. I am sure there is someone out there reading this who can send me back to school. Hopefully I'm not too far off.

It makes since that if you increase the residual stress then it would be harder to break, but again, I bet this can only improve its total yield stress by just a small amount, and I think these processes are used just to prolong the fatigue life, not really to increase its overall strength. I'm sure it does, but I bet only by like 5% or something..

Man it would be cool to study in detail about materials and learn how to make them stronger and last longer!

A Steel Scientist

guywithuglyyota · « **Reply #21 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 07:21:16 PM »

Ok ok maybe you guys have talked me out of it

But I still need to regear to 5.29's. Right now Im running 4.88 and I supose 5.29's are a 10% reduction if im not not mistaken?

Thanks for all that info, and the long replys BigMike. I really wish The off road world had its own Mythbusters crew to check these theories out.

Has Bobby Long made a machine yet to test R&P?? Of course its not gonna be even close to the real world life of a R&P, but I heard on the PBB hes working on such a device.

crawlerdan · « **Reply #22 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 08:04:02 PM »

Quote from: 4LOWx2 on Dec 30, 2005, 07:21:16 PM

I really wish The off road world had its own Mythbusters crew to check these theories out.

i have, stay away from 5.71s...unless of course you enjoy buying things, paying someone to install them, breaking them, then starting over again right where you should have in the first place.

The_Blue_Coyote · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 03, 2006, 08:44:02 PM »

A properly set up rear end w 5.71 is plenty strong. I read the artilcle, spoke with Zuk and swapped in a set of 5.71's and am very happy.
And no, this is not on some mall crawler. These are on a 84 Toyota class 7s dezert race truck. I am very hard on this truck yet have no concerns about running over 2' whoops, in 2nd or 3rd gear, with the built 22re (140hp) at 5200 rpm and turning 33" BFG Baja's (extremely heavy tire) on a V6 spool. They have run an entire race season with no issues. And I have friends that get 1 - 2 races out of a set of Ford 9" gears with a simular truck.
However, like the article says you must run a quality gear (ours are Precisoin V6 gears - not GG or a shimmed 4cyl gear). a solid pinion spacer and properly set up the rear diff. This includes torking the snot out of the carrier bearings.
The next time I do the rear end I will have the gears cryo's - to prevent the minute scuffing that does occur due to the hard racing use.

BigMike · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 03, 2006, 09:03:36 PM »

Sounds good

guywithuglyyota · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 03, 2006, 10:22:45 PM »

It looks like Precision does not make 5.71 reverse cut gears for the High pinion

Thanks for the real world reply Coyote

ZUK · « **Reply #26 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 06:05:46 AM »

Quote from: The_Blue_Coyote on Jan 03, 2006, 08:44:02 PM

A properly set up rear end w 5.71 is plenty strong. I read the artilcle, spoke with Zuk and swapped in a set of 5.71's and am very happy.
And no, this is not on some mall crawler. These are on a 84 Toyota class 7s dezert race truck. I am very hard on this truck yet have no concerns about running over 2' whoops, in 2nd or 3rd gear, with the built 22re (140hp) at 5200 rpm and turning 33" BFG Baja's (extremely heavy tire) on a V6 spool. They have run an entire race season with no issues. And I have friends that get 1 - 2 races out of a set of Ford 9" gears with a simular truck.
However, like the article says you must run a quality gear (ours are Precisoin V6 gears - not GG or a shimmed 4cyl gear). a solid pinion spacer and properly set up the rear diff. This includes torking the snot out of the carrier bearings.
The next time I do the rear end I will have the gears cryo's - to prevent the minute scuffing that does occur due to the hard racing use.

Bluecoyote--- Replying to your 6 month old post

......I wish I had offered to set up your first set of 571 rear gears......and congrats on getting Precision as that is probably the best qual gear for a Toyota application.

Next time, just send it my way and I will set it to racing standards. I will do a link on it also.

Also, there is a surface preparation process(slips my mind right now) that results in a chrome-like finish that means no break-in required.....run it right in the desert at 80 mph with no break-in. I know Randys offers service for about 75.

Oh ...... the name of the process is called REM resulting in an isotropic finish.....
Here's a goodarticle....they specifically mention racing and off-road also http://www.metalimprovement.com/case.php Judging by the way they talk of this process, maybe cryo is not required if isotropics is applied......

Wow....here's a ring gear with an "isotropic finish" http://www.musclemotorparts.com/REM.htm

http://www.procryo.com/RemGears.html
ZUK

guywithuglyyota [OP]

guywithuglyyota [OP]

guywithuglyyota [OP]

guywithuglyyota [OP]

Related Topics