Author Topic: Catastophic Failure  (Read 1435 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

85Buckett

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 187
  • Male Posts: 56
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Nothing Happens Until Something Moves
    • Buy me a beer
Catastophic Failure
« on: Jul 16, 2018, 10:04:12 AM »
I wanted to post this for all of you to see.  I tore apart a 84 front that I'm building for my 85Buckett and found my favorite sort of failure, Catastrophic Failure !

It's pretty cool to see a pinion gear eat the center of a soft steel carrier.   I wonder what the heck the previous owner did to this thing.

Anyway Enjoy !
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2018, 10:09:55 AM by 85Buckett »
Pirate 4x4 S/N  Tripower389

gnob

  • Online Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 415
  • Posts: 711
  • Member since May '02
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #1 on: Jul 16, 2018, 01:53:42 PM »
They didn't do anything, ever thats why the pinion bearing smoked and ate the carrier.  Super common, especially with crush collar diffs.
hold this. . .

Gnarly4X

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,142
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #2 on: Jul 20, 2018, 03:36:07 AM »
They didn't do anything, ever thats why the pinion bearing smoked and ate the carrier.  Super common, especially with crush collar diffs.

Hey gnob, would mind expanding on your comment a little bit?  In all my years of wheeling (20+) the number of differential failures I've witnessed, or was a topic of discussion with my wheeling buddies that I was privy to, I can count on 1 hand - AND as I remember the crush collar had zero to do with the failure... probably just my lack of experience?  :gap:

Is a Toy diff a "crush collar diff"?  If if is, is it "Super common" for Toyota diffs to fail?  :dunno:

Just curious.  :D

Gnarls.


« Last Edit: Jul 20, 2018, 03:47:04 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

gnob

  • Online Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 415
  • Posts: 711
  • Member since May '02
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #3 on: Jul 20, 2018, 04:32:52 AM »
Not much to expand on.  The above was caused by a pinion bearing failure.  Likely the inner.  Typically you have bearing failure from lack of lube (this was a front SA diff).  Also you can run into this situation setting up a new diff depending on ratio/pinion depth.  There really isnt much room between the pinion head and carrier as it is.
As far as the crush collar goes, ive never ever oulled one that came out square.  A property set up SS diff, you could theoretically run the pinion nut to a billion pounds and not have an issue.  Crush collar is a super fine line to proper setup.  Also there are plenty of people who think its ok to do a pinion seal on a CC diff without replacing the spacer to reachieve proper bearing preload
Hopefully that answers your questions ;)
hold this. . .

OOPS

  • Rock Ninja
  • Offline The 2.5K Group
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 783
  • Male Posts: 2,532
  • Member since May '02
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #4 on: Jul 20, 2018, 06:30:54 PM »
This is what you want to use instead of a crush sleeve!! 
David & Theresa Fritzsche, 1990 Ex-Cab with a few mods!!!!!!!!! Roseville, CA Sobriety =Serenity

Slabzilla

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 1083
  • Male Posts: 415
  • Member since Dec '13
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #5 on: Jul 20, 2018, 06:57:54 PM »
My only diff failure in multiple decades of abusing them was the failure of the crush sleeve on my 85's rear diff. This little 4 banger munched a r&p ( my first ) in this truck.  I've not lunched a diff as bad with Huge cube V8s, it was a mess. :yikes:  Solid pinion spacers rule.   :biggthumpup:
'85 Xtra-cab, 4.5" Downey Off-Road lift, 12-15 KM2's on American Racing Baja's, 4.10's, 4.7's, Downey Off-Road CAI, Marlin rear bumper & sliders

Gnarly4X

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,142
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #6 on: Jul 21, 2018, 03:33:19 AM »
My only diff failure in multiple decades of abusing them was the failure of the crush sleeve on my 85's rear diff. This little 4 banger munched a r&p ( my first ) in this truck.  I've not lunched a diff as bad with Huge cube V8s, it was a mess. :yikes:  Solid pinion spacers rule.   :biggthumpup:

I understand the crush sleeve paranoia.... BUT there are millions and millions of differentials with crush sleeves that don't have catastrophic failure and go 100s of thousands of miles with zero failures. ....... Can you explain why?

Like many topics, this one has been discussed and masterbated over and over....

Example:  http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/crush-sleeve-vs-shimmed-spacer-181485.html

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,142
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #7 on: Jul 21, 2018, 03:52:49 AM »
Not much to expand on.  The above was caused by a pinion bearing failure.  Likely the inner.  Typically you have bearing failure from lack of lube (this was a front SA diff).  Also you can run into this situation setting up a new diff depending on ratio/pinion depth.  There really isnt much room between the pinion head and carrier as it is.
As far as the crush collar goes, ive never ever oulled one that came out square.  A property set up SS diff, you could theoretically run the pinion nut to a billion pounds and not have an issue.  Crush collar is a super fine line to proper setup.  Also there are plenty of people who think its ok to do a pinion seal on a CC diff without replacing the spacer to reachieve proper bearing preload
Hopefully that answers your questions ;)

Is this your post in here, gnob???? 

Here.... read this and then someone educate me again on crush sleeve vs. solid spacer... please.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-truck-4runner/172808-topic-week-crush-sleeve-vs-solid-spacer.html

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jul 21, 2018, 05:00:16 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

kneedownnate

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1006
  • Male Posts: 9,743
  • Member since Oct '04
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #8 on: Jul 22, 2018, 01:35:14 AM »
Pulled 2 damaged 3rds from toyotas and both had bad crush sleeves.  Not saying they wouldn't have failed otherwise but, maybe they wouldn't have.  Both were factory 4.38 (4.375?) gears and both were pulled due to pinion gear failures.  And before an internet warrior jumps in and says I set them up wrong, these were original toyota diffs. 
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

Gnarly4X

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,142
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #9 on: Jul 22, 2018, 06:08:21 AM »
Pulled 2 damaged 3rds from toyotas and both had bad crush sleeves. 

My comments are not intended to target any particular person, expert, website, or group, but merely what my observations are to what I hear and what I read on the internet on 6 or more automotive websites.

I don’t doubt you believe the 2 diff failures you saw were caused by a “bad crush sleeve”.  Can you please explain how you determined that the crush sleeve caused the failures, and what does a bad crush sleeve look like, and how does it fail?

These discussions, repeated over and over on various sites, are typically laced with anecdotal and continually promoted misinformation.

Often there are comments that are just plain Bravo Sierra, and obviously the person simply is ignorant of the facts.

Is seems clear that the collar/shim use has a couple advantages over a crush sleeve setup.  But, how do those advantages have anything to do with cause of failure?

Nowhere can I find that common differential failure is caused by a crush sleeve or collar and shims.

Since there are millions and millions of differentials being manufactured by automakers using a crush sleeve (for automated production advantages), it seems logical that if there was any significant issue with crush sleeves or the crush sleeve setup design, they would NOT be using crush sleeves… PERIOD.

Typical premature differential failure is caused by lack of proper lubrication, over-loaded stress due to excessive power forces, sudden shock loads, or too much resistance - like over-sized tires.  The other cause of failure is simply improper installation and setup.  And of course you can blame a failure on defective parts.

Again, in my limited experience, differential failure in my street vehicles, tow vehicles, and my 4 wheel drive vehicles has happened zero times.  The diff failures I was aware of during my very active 4-wheeling years, was caused by excessive shock loads while negotiating an obstacle.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.  :gap:

Gnarls. :inthedark:



 


« Last Edit: Jul 22, 2018, 08:31:34 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

kneedownnate

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1006
  • Male Posts: 9,743
  • Member since Oct '04
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #10 on: Jul 22, 2018, 03:07:19 PM »
Darn that reading comprehension sometimes, huh?  When we’re so quick to assume people are talking trash about us, we often jump to conclusions and forget to read or fail to understand what we read.

As I clearly said, both were pulled due to pinion gear failures.  Anybody who has dealt with a catastrophic failure like this knows it will usually ruin the crush sleeve in the process.  If you want to take my experience personal and argue about it, I don’t have the time or energy for your typical antagonistic games.  I am just tired of you constantly looking down your nose at all but maybe two board members and constantly questioning the validity of the experience of others just because it isn’t your own.  There’s a wealth of wheeling and wrenching knowledge available within this community, enough to humble even the most experienced person, but some do not allow themselves the opportunity to take advantage of it because they are constantly questioning others because they’re too full of themselves.
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

H8PVMNT

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 451
  • Male Posts: 3,503
  • Member since May '07
  • I'LL NEVER MAKE IT...
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #11 on: Jul 22, 2018, 07:41:42 PM »
I have done 20 or more Toyota 8" ring and pinion set ups over the past 20 years or so. A few had crush sleeves and most I used solid spacers. I have seen what I think are crush sleeve related bearing failures.  I think sometimes somebody will replace a pinion seal and re-tighten the sleeve, over crushing the sleeve a bit on older bearings causing less than ideal bearing pre-load and oil clearance.

I have also seen crush sleeves that seem way loose when you take things apart.  As far as crush sleeves in general being stout enough, I recently set up my wife's 8.25" Chrysler Durango rear end and the crush sleeve was shorter and way stouter than the Toyota crush sleeve.  I have no doubt that one would be hard to tweak in any circumstance. The Toyota sleeve is way lighter material.  Maybe it's enough, but it seems kind of light in comparison.

What I think based on experiences is this:  A crush sleeve can work, but it's a bit more vulnerable than a solid spacer because it's cheesy on the Toyota 8".  The crush sleeve requires a "just right" amount of crush to do it's job and it's way too easy to over-tighten them during setups, requiring you to get another sleeve.  After you mess with a pinion seal you may or may not need another one, which is also bad.  The solid spacer is infinitely un-tweakable and as long as you shim it right is good for as many pinion seals as you want.

I choose the solid spacer, for the convenience of re-usability, ease of set up, supposed stoutness and fool proof set ups.
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
– Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

Slabzilla

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 1083
  • Male Posts: 415
  • Member since Dec '13
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #12 on: Jul 23, 2018, 03:38:18 PM »
Roger that, H8 and Kneedown, the shock load that we all put on that flimsy crush sleeve is most likely the cause of it's failure.  Not all 8"er's will experience this failure but those that have will prefer the confidence of the solid spacer.  Yes , many Toyotas are on the road with no problems and more power to them and Toy's reliability, but off-road we apply more severe loads than they were designed for so we upgrade to save our trail time.  A crush sleeve in a 9" is much stouter than Toy's exhaust tubing strength collar.  Gnarl's, nobody's directing any BS, it's just experience, smile a little bit.   :therethere:
'85 Xtra-cab, 4.5" Downey Off-Road lift, 12-15 KM2's on American Racing Baja's, 4.10's, 4.7's, Downey Off-Road CAI, Marlin rear bumper & sliders

Prismo

  • Offline The 1K Club
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 7080
  • Posts: 1,250
  • Member since Oct '03
  • Living in the green house
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #13 on: Jul 23, 2018, 06:00:05 PM »
The only 2 that over crushed the sleeve were both Detroit locker diffs so I agree with "shock" causing this. Both sleeves were deformed when I replaced them. Realize that both diffs lasted 50k plus before I had problems.
Retired Great White Turtle Hunter
Originally posted by fortysixandtwo – sheesh, you should see the transvestites i sell ammo to sometimes

Gnarly4X

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,142
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Catastophic Failure
« Reply #14 on: Jul 26, 2018, 09:23:35 AM »
Darn .. because they’re too full of themselves.

I’m sure we would not find any of your comments in your 9,683 posts that are “your typical antagonistic games"?... like this one.

In the study of human psychology, a person who overtly criticizes another person most often suffers from a personality disorder, has low self esteem, and if a male, often has a very small male organ.  Of course that may not be the personality disorder you suffer from.

Regarding my “…reading comprehension” …”assume people are talking trash”….jumping “to conclusions” and “forget to read or fail to understand” what I read…. just for the record: 

I work for an international multi-billion dollar corporation that pays me a substantial salary as a communications analyst. Since I am one of a very small number of individuals (less than 12) selected to perform my role, I assume I must have reasonably qualified skills in reading comprehension, verbal, and textual communications.  I teach associates the science and art of textual and verbal communications in a high profile, very fast-paced negative service business/consumer/client industry. 

I doubt you will find in any of my 2,442 posts where I obviously and intentionally “look down my nose” at anyone.  As far as the wealth of knowledge here, there is also a wealth of male bovine feces!!

Humble and Kind….   I subscribed to Tim’s version….

You know there's a lot that goes by the front door
Don't forget the keys under the mat
Childhood stars shine, always stay humble and kind
Go to church 'cause your momma says to
Visit grandpa every chance that you can
It won't be a waste of time
Always stay humble and kind
Hold the door say please say thank you
Don't steal, don't cheat, and don't lie
I know you got mountains to climb but
Always stay humble and kind
When the dreams you're dreamin' come to you
When the work you put in is realized
Let yourself feel the pride but
Always stay humble and kind
Don't expect a free ride from no one
Don't hold a grudge or a chip and here's why
Bitterness keeps you from flying
Always stay humble and kind
Know the difference between sleeping with someone
And sleeping…

~ Tim McGraw

Now… regarding the topic…

I enjoy getting into the weeds at times, especially when the tech stuff is slow and the sandbox is full of fresh poop.  It should be obvious my comments are just my personal observations of decades of wheeling.

Here’s what I believe… the number of expert differential suppliers and rebuilders differ on the use of a crush sleeve or a collar/shim design-install.  One might recommend a solid spacer, some will use a crush sleeve unless the customer specifies a solid spacer.  I have spoken to a number of experts and, not surprising to me, they have different opinions.  Not to get into the mechanical dynamics of what goes on inside a differential under load, here’s my take on their comments….

Most of them state that for a differential that will be used for a race application, in tow vehicles, large trucks that use engine braking, and in extreme off-roading or 4-wheeling  use, the collar and shims will reduce the possibility of gear and bearing wear, and *potential* failure.  As far the set up time for either one is not a factor for the experts who rebuild hundreds of these per year.  The solid spacer does have an advantage because if the pinion should be removed for any reason, you can recalibrate the preload fairly easily.  With a crush sleeve, you would need to replace it.

Most catastrophic differential failure is catastrophic stupidity, improper use of the diff, improper set up and installation, or in some cases, the auto manufacturer has a poor differential design and premature failures are common.

Most reputable players in aftermarket differential service use high quality crush sleeves and solid spacer and shims, typically from OEM, Ratech or American Axle.

One big player I spoke to said strangely “Toyota guys prefer the solid spacer and shims”.

That’s my pomp ‘n stink.

Gnarls.



« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2018, 04:18:15 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

Related Topics

7 Replies
1973 Views
Last post Jun 20, 2005, 02:51:21 PM
by UNBREAKABLE
12 Replies
2131 Views
Last post Jul 27, 2005, 12:13:40 AM
by SLOYOTA808
34 Replies
8832 Views
Last post Oct 04, 2005, 07:32:20 PM
by Mike D
0 Replies
635 Views
Last post Dec 26, 2006, 08:19:41 PM
by 79coyotefrg
15 Replies
2210 Views
Last post Dec 08, 2014, 07:01:49 PM
by Willard