Author Topic: 20r from hell?  (Read 9277 times)

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jasatterfield

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20r from hell?
« on: Jun 09, 2014, 01:21:30 PM »
So I'm new to the marlin forum. I have been reading a lot about the 20r and 22r on here.

I have a 1977 celica with a 20r in it. I'm putting 90.78hp and 115tourqe at the wheels (4500rpm) valve float stopped me from going higher... I have a dyno sheet to back it up.

I would like to know that is the highest na 20,22,22/20 you guys have seen built or have information on building.

I am also getting a free 20r so I decided might as well use it if it's possible to make 175hp and around 200+ tourqe.

Let me know!

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #1 on: Jun 09, 2014, 03:43:49 PM »
Search around on here there is a ton of good proven tech on the 20r/22r hybrid build.  Should be pretty impressive in a celica.

I have a new holley manifold to put a spread bore holley or other carb on a 20r head in my stash of cool stuff.  I have been thinking of selling it if you have a use for it in a balls out 20r build.
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jasatterfield [OP]

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #2 on: Jun 09, 2014, 06:53:20 PM »
We will see if I need that because I have a 4barrel holly 460 laying around off of a Chevy 4.3 we will see. But I won't go past 10.5:1 so that I can still drive it with pump gas.

79coyotefrg

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #3 on: Jun 09, 2014, 08:35:50 PM »
valve float didnt kill it, unless its got over 200,000 on it then maybe.

does it have the stock carb and stock exhaust??
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jasatterfield [OP]

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #4 on: Jun 09, 2014, 09:40:13 PM »
Weber 32/36 offenhouser intake "stage 3" TRD cam. Stock everything else. Looking at the air/fuel I started to go lean at 4800. Cam has 89,000 miles bottom end has well over 200,000 that includes other parts such as the valve springs and other items around the cam.

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #5 on: Jun 09, 2014, 10:08:22 PM »
get rid of the stock exhaust and get a long tube header I recommend LCENgineering.  but get rid of the stock exhaust. run 2 1/4 inch tube from end of collector to back of car.  i'll check back tomorrow :thumbs:

AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #6 on: Jun 10, 2014, 12:26:18 AM »
mine can easily pull well over 6 grand, 6700 last couple times i paid attention
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jasatterfield [OP]

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #7 on: Jun 10, 2014, 11:10:41 AM »
There's no problem with revving high just the power drops off.

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #8 on: Jun 10, 2014, 12:22:09 PM »
If the springs have 200K on them then yeah, time to replace, especially since you're running a larger than stock cam.

Carb going lean will also kill the top end power.  Either a carb jet/tune problem or a fuel delivery issue.

I had problems with leaning out on the top end when i first got into drag racing and spent a lot of time farting around with the carb when the problem turned out to be that the stock fuel pump just couldn't keep up with demand at high RPMs.  Electric pump with regulator fixed that.  That was an American V8 but could be a similar problem.
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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #9 on: Jun 10, 2014, 09:19:39 PM »
There's no problem with revving high just the power drops off.

well if you have a weber and a better than stock cam and stock exhaust thats kinda like putting a 40DD bra on your flat chested girl friend.
my 79 truck had a long tube header when I bought it, but had the stock carb and skinny exhaust .  I went with 2 1/4 tube and a weber and got a lot more power but still ran flat about 4500.  I installed a .460 cam from LCE and the 20R had enough power to run 90 on the interstate.   after falling into a DEEP pit I had to upgrade my bottom end and used a early 22R block and my 20R head and could drag race almost any 4 cylinder after that.    one day at 7200 rpm I floated the valves and broke an exhaust valve off destroying #4.  later had that block bored to .060 but thats another story.
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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #10 on: Jun 10, 2014, 09:22:20 PM »
oh, and in 1985 Toysport racing built engines the same spec as my 20/22 hybrid that consistently dyno'd out at 180hp. thats where I got the specs to build my 20R, 22R and 20/22 hybrids.


http://toysport3.tripod.com/webpages/Main/thingsabout.htm


Quote
Our first race car, a 1984 Toyota Celica GTS (from Toyota) raced in the Macao Grand Prix, South East Asia’s most prestigious regional race. This track is a Toyota favorite, where all top Japanese racing teams come, to race against all the international competitors. This is the only documented win by the Toyota 22R in international competition. It placed 3rd, behind 2 six-cylinder factory prepared BMWs!
« Last Edit: Jun 10, 2014, 09:37:12 PM by 79coyotefrg »
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #11 on: Jun 10, 2014, 09:40:16 PM »
Weber 32/36 offenhouser intake "stage 3" TRD cam. Stock everything else. Looking at the air/fuel I started to go lean at 4800. Cam has 89,000 miles bottom end has well over 200,000 that includes other parts such as the valve springs and other items around the cam.

what jets are in the weber?? if you even think you are running lean get some new fatter jets.  whats the specs on that trd#3 cam?? lift?? duration??
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

jasatterfield [OP]

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #12 on: Jun 10, 2014, 11:36:19 PM »
I have a long header and 2" all the way back sorry forgot that. But not worred because I'm getting great mileage right now.

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #13 on: Jun 12, 2014, 09:32:23 AM »
Whatever jets that a 32/36 comes with.

Cam specs are simular if not the same as on lce for their stage 3 cam.


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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #14 on: Jun 12, 2014, 10:24:28 AM »
Just so odd.  Mine is a 60 over 20r that was passed off as a 22r, stock 76 20r head w/mikuni cam, fat weber 32/36, tri-y header and 2.5" exhaust and no cat.  Doesn't still pull at that rpm, but doesn't fall on it's face either
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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #15 on: Jun 12, 2014, 01:44:49 PM »
Whatever jets that a 32/36 comes with.

Cam specs are simular if not the same as on lce for their stage 3 cam.



you sure about that?? cams from different companies can vary greatly.

this is my truck with a stage 2 LCE cam. 35inch tires and weighs 4500 pounds,   this cam probably has 60,000 on it in this video.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck


here are the specs for a LCE stage 3.  this would be a pain in the ass to drive on the street

20R/22R - Stage 3 Camshaft
Hot Street / Circle track / Drag performance (2500-6500 rpm)
Side drafts, Holley 2 Barrel, 1 5/8" Header
     Intake    Exhaust    
Valve Lift    475    475    
Advertised Duration    295    295    
Duration @ .050"    255    255
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #16 on: Jun 12, 2014, 02:18:18 PM »
Pain in the ass is right. But I've learned to drive it well. And yeah those are the same specs.

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #17 on: Jun 12, 2014, 02:46:25 PM »
Pain in the ass is right. But I've learned to drive it well. And yeah those are the same specs.

weird, I was sure TRD was like one number down from LC,  anyway.  pull the top off your carb and look down in the fuel bowl and get the number off the top of the fuel jets.  then you'll know what you need to order.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

jasatterfield [OP]

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #18 on: Jun 12, 2014, 05:21:17 PM »
The cam is amazing I mean pain in the ass by I learned to drive using automatic fule injected cars... much diffrent.

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #19 on: Jun 12, 2014, 10:02:45 PM »
79coyotefrg, that video  :yikes:! An to think I feel guilty on the rare occasion I hit 4500rpm. how fast where you going, I couldnt take my eyes off the tach.
  Theres alot more to those 20/22r hybrids than just slappin a 20r head on an early 22r block, right?
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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #20 on: Jun 12, 2014, 11:28:22 PM »
79coyotefrg, that video  :yikes:! An to think I feel guilty on the rare occasion I hit 4500rpm. how fast where you going, I couldnt take my eyes off the tach.
  Theres alot more to those 20/22r hybrids than just slappin a 20r head on an early 22r block, right?

Zero to 70 in whatever it was 17 second i think
:driving:

that was my 22R i have to pull out soon. as soon as I can I'm going to build another hybrid.

um, yea pretty much, a stock 20R head and intake on a stock (early)22r block.   with my .460 lift 290 duration cam I had to clearance my pistons.
if i had the hybrid going that tach would pull out to 6000 easy.  I blew my hybrid at 7200 on the interstate  :down:  I downshifted to third and watched the guy disappear in my rear view mirror, just as I went to shift at 90 something mph the valves floated and number 4 exhaust broke off in the head and what was left beat a hole through the piston and scared the block.  I bored the block to .060 and kept going another year till I kept blowing head gaskets and had to ditch the 20R head.   at .060 over the 20R head didnt have enough sealing surface to stand the punishment of my lead foot.
« Last Edit: Jun 12, 2014, 11:46:56 PM by 79coyotefrg »
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

jasatterfield [OP]

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #21 on: Jun 13, 2014, 08:14:32 AM »
Yes I read one of your posts and I was like Damn! I'm going to put the best valves I can find into the 20r head I want it to be safe for going past 8500 but then never go past. I'm going to have the rods and crank of what's ever I do balanced to perfection. Also I was told I can put a girdle on the crank. I saw one on a Honda engine and asked "wtf is that?" Then the master mechanic next door said I could make one or find one for the 20r if I was lucky. Dose the crank need the beefing up? I assume the stock crank can handle stupid power. What about the mains?

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #22 on: Jun 15, 2014, 07:26:50 PM »
I'm not an expert on these engines but I've built a few engines in my time and the 22R bottom end looks plenty beefy to me for anything short of a full race buildup.  Forged crank, forged rods, 5 main caps, fully skirted block = stout.  If you're really concerned about it, get an ARP main stud kit but I can't really see that being necessary for anything you'll be driving on the street.  If you do get the main stud kit keep in mind you'll have to have the main bore honed in the block, which will shorten the distance between crankshaft and camshaft centerlines slightly.

I'd focus more on the head/valvetrain - that's where the power is and where your most likely point of failure is as well.
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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #23 on: Jun 15, 2014, 10:54:13 PM »
Yes I read one of your posts and I was like Damn! I'm going to put the best valves I can find into the 20r head I want it to be safe for going past 8500 but then never go past. I'm going to have the rods and crank of what's ever I do balanced to perfection. Also I was told I can put a girdle on the crank. I saw one on a Honda engine and asked "wtf is that?" Then the master mechanic next door said I could make one or find one for the 20r if I was lucky. Dose the crank need the beefing up? I assume the stock crank can handle stupid power. What about the mains?

these cranks have 5 main bearings so the girdle isnt that much of a necessity.   I saw a video a few years ago where a 22RE with dual turbo's and nitrous making 1100 hp but probably had $20,000  in it if not more.
but you can get plenty out of the engine you have listed if you fatten up those fuel jets..  with correct cam timing and work finding the right curve on the 20R distributor I think you can find 120hp easy out of the 20R.

AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #25 on: Jun 16, 2014, 12:26:05 PM »
I had a '77 Celica a while back. Ran the 20/22R mildly ported head, tube exhaust and a Weber 40DFEV, which is a synchronous 2 barrel 40mm down draft. Car was lightened by about 300lbs and had a rear from a Corolla GTS(AE86) for the LSD, 4.10 R&P. Car ran low 14s and passed tail pipe emissions easily. My 2Cents on a spirited Celica engine for the street. These mods are easy and not too expensive and effective. Start with an early 22R block and punch it out to 93mm, aftermarket pistons are good for a decent upgrade. Do your calculations and shoot for 9.5-10 to 1 compression. Be sure to keep a minimum of .040" clearance between the piston and cylinder head. Use a 20R cylinder head with a good multi angle valve grind and if your budget allows match the manifold to the head. A Weber 38DGES with at least a Cannon manifold will do nicely. A cam in the 270 degree range would work well here. Bolt on a light flywheel and underdrive pulley. Get the tune right and you'll be amazed! Oh, and don't forget the electric fan. The Celica is really a light car, the hatch is a little heavier than the coupe. If you don't mind getting rid of things a 2000lb car is easy to achieve. Any more than that will necessitate suspension work to keep the rear planted. As for the power you can get out of a 20/22R? How big is your budget? Since everyone want to offer parts, how 'bout a ported 20R head with SS oversize valves and a set of side draft carbs? Head was built and bagged, never used with this build.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #26 on: Jun 21, 2014, 08:35:35 AM »
So let's say 3000 budget I have an offenhouser intake. And 32/36. I was at the drag races last night with my 3.58 rear end running 18.5 I looked at the math and a 4.10 ratio is about a 15% drop in time if I hook up and get all my shifts. When I had the 3.73 3rd got squirrely on a HARD shift. I'd like to be in $2000-3000 for the engine.  Goal wheel hp is 150-160. If I get more cool but at least 150 hp at 5500rpm and the ability to rev up to 8000 without blowing to kingdom come.

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #27 on: Jun 21, 2014, 11:16:56 AM »
8000RPM will require better rods, and work on the head. You'll never achieve your goal with a 32/26 Weber, a single 40mm down draft will fall a bit short towards the upper end. Side draft carbs will get ya there! You would need a set of short 4 into 1 headers for that RPM and a 2 1/2" exhaust. Don't do the tri-Y set up for that kind of RPM, it'll fall flat. And getting the 22R to spin like that will require mods that kill your bottom end. Make sure the shop doing your balancing does a great job, it's a heavy crank and at speeds that high it likes to gyrate and destroy the oil pump. And with that note, a lightweight pulley will help keep the snout straighter as well. If you want to drag race this thing I'd suggest bulletproofing the bottom end, forged pistons and billet rods, and do a medium build, and use a power adder. Either boost it or juice it. I hit a 150 shot in one of my cars, and it added about 90whp, on a 160hp engine, Lotsa fun! But I'd have to say, your budget is a little shy. Kick it another dime and you'll be closer to your goals without cutting corners. Believe me, cutting corners costs a lot more in the long run!
« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2014, 11:22:40 AM by sirdeuce »
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #28 on: Jun 21, 2014, 03:16:45 PM »
So let's say 3000 budget I have an offenhouser intake. And 32/36. I was at the drag races last night with my 3.58 rear end running 18.5
  dude thats only like 82 mph.  assuming you have 26inch tires thats barely 4000rpm

Quote
I looked at the math and a 4.10 ratio is about a 15% drop in time if I hook up and get all my shifts. When I had the 3.73 3rd got squirrely on a HARD shift. I'd like to be in $2000-3000 for the engine.  Goal wheel hp is 150-160. If I get more cool but at least 150 hp at 5500rpm and the ability to rev up to 8000 without blowing to kingdom come.
no, the 4.10's will get you up there faster and 4.10's with assuming 26 inch tires will get you up around 5000 rpm by 1/4 mile with 94mph aka 15 seconds
if you are spinning 8000 your clutch is DEAD
8000 rpm with 3.58's and a 26 inch tire is 173mph
get one of the 1200 pound clutches from Marlin that will seriously hook up at take off.
your engine as it sits now with 4.10's can easily do 15's
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

79coyotefrg

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Re: 20r from hell?
« Reply #29 on: Jun 21, 2014, 03:20:27 PM »
8000RPM will require better rods, and work on the head. You'll never achieve your goal with a 32/26 Weber, a single 40mm down draft will fall a bit short towards the upper end. Side draft carbs will get ya there! You would need a set of short 4 into 1 headers for that RPM and a 2 1/2" exhaust. Don't do the tri-Y set up for that kind of RPM, it'll fall flat. And getting the 22R to spin like that will require mods that kill your bottom end. Make sure the shop doing your balancing does a great job, it's a heavy crank and at speeds that high it likes to gyrate and destroy the oil pump.
I would go with a long tube 4 into 1

http://www.lceperformance.com/Pro-Race-Header-Kit-20R-22R-RE-2WD-Pickup-or-4Run-p/1041021.htm

So let's say 3000 budget I have an offenhouser intake. And 32/36. I was at the drag races last night with my 3.58 rear end running 18.5 I looked at the math and a 4.10 ratio is about a 15% drop in time if I hook up and get all my shifts. When I had the 3.73 3rd got squirrely on a HARD shift. I'd like to be in $2000-3000 for the engine.  Goal wheel hp is 150-160. If I get more cool but at least 150 hp at 5500rpm and the ability to rev up to 8000 without blowing to kingdom come.

also, about the max on these engines is going to be 6500. if you get a rev limiter and set it at 6500 you will save your self a LOT of money
« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2014, 03:28:10 PM by 79coyotefrg »
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

 
 
 
 
 

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