Author Topic: 20r/22r, a few issues need some help/advice (Read 21506 times)

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #30 on:** Jun 09, 2011, 06:46:21 PM »

It is alright. How would I go about finding the duration? When I used the calc at LC's page it stated the duration is 222 and 231 at the current spot it is at with an overlap of 5.0 degrees. Any additional information on finding these myself w/o using their calculator and I'd like to see how all these are calculated. I know how to calculate the lobe centers, but that's it at the moment.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #31 on:** Jun 10, 2011, 12:33:25 AM »

So, after doing some more reading I have found that 5 degrees of overlap is very minimal. Messing around with the numbers on the cam calc at lc has shown me that advancing my cam even 5 degrees still gives me 5 degree over lap, but if I retard my cam (backwards of what you would think, b/c of the "natural" retarding from being machined, and then advancing the cam to fix it) about 5 degrees from where it would when lined up at zero on the cam then it allows me to have about 15 degrees of overlap, which seems more normal. Perhaps someone has some input on this. Here are the rough numbers I have from calculating it:

Camshaft Calculations - Lobe Center / Duration

Your cam has an Overlap of 15.50 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 235.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 230.50 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 112.50 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 104.75 degrees BTDC.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #32 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 01:04:30 AM »

I have the engine back together and running. I have ran it and the pinging is now gone with the cam 2.5 degrees advanced. I have compared this cam and its specs to some over at LC engineering and the overlap simply sucks. I think I'm losing a lot with the cam I have installed. I have an overlap of 5 degrees, which means the scavenging is at a minimal. LC's mild cam has an overlap of 13 degrees. It is what it is for the time being.

I am going to move onto jetting my 32/36 b/c i can't get it tuned properly and from the info I've read it means that I'm running to lean. Won't idle at all with the idle speed screw at 1-1.5 turns in and the mixture screw at 2.25 turns out or with a 1/2 turn of it. I can't even screw it out far enough for it to idle. I think I'm going to go with a performance jet kit from redline so I have some jets to work with.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 different types of jets, right? main jets, air jets, and idle jets?

Anyone know what the stock 32/36 DGEV jets are? I've done some searching and can't seem to find them.

ninja turtle · « **Reply #33 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 07:10:33 AM »

yeah there is 3 different types of jets. its been years since i did this so i dont really remember what went where.

these are the stock jets, the 1st 2 are both 160, the ones in the middle are both 140 and the ones on the far right are 45 and 50.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #34 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 10:18:12 AM »

I have an extra 32/36 that cam with my engine when purchased. I'm going to take it apart and see what jets it has in it. Perhaps they will get me close to where I need to be. I hope to get this thing tuned up well. I may be able to get to it this evening.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #35 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 11:52:18 AM »

here is my truck a few months ago. specs are in my profile or earlier in this thread. http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd137/79coyotefrg/?action=view&current=PICT2409.mp4

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #36 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 12:51:10 PM »

coyote, did you mess with the idle jets at all?

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #37 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 06:14:03 PM »

Valve(s) or rocker(s) tapping on valve cover? Not quite sure, unless someone thinks it could be something different. The valves are adjusted to .008 and .012 on a cold engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oR4FifwQDY

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #38 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 07:28:57 PM »

Quote from: live4soccer7 on Jun 13, 2011, 12:51:10 PM

coyote, did you mess with the idle jets at all?

nope

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #39 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 08:01:49 PM »

are you running a 20R valve cover?? if so get a 22R cover. a 22RE would be even better as they are just a hair taller. my rockers were hitting the valve cover bad and thats what yours sounds like.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #40 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 08:17:12 PM »

I couldn't tell ya if it were a 22re or not. I know it is not a 20r cover. I could see if I can pick on up. That would be much better. I hate that dang noise.

I pulled the jets on the other weber and they were about 160/130 on both.

I think I'll order up some jets similar to yours coyote as we have fairly similar builds, with the exception of my 20r head. I think the cam I have is choking my engine down. I may get an lc cam or see what our local guy has here after I rejet, roughly tune the carb, and dial in the fuel pressure to 3-3.5.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #41 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 08:29:05 PM »

How about a 22ret valve cover? I found one locally and am contacting the guy now to see if he still has it. Is that gonna be the same height or more than the 22re?

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #42 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 08:53:05 PM »

yep, that cover will do nicely

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #43 on:** Jun 13, 2011, 10:02:52 PM »

Ok... Is there any way to tell if I have the 22re cover already? I can't remember what the sticker said when I removed it about a 6 months ago.

Edit: Just dug through several hundred photos on the comp to find one that I took of the valve cover. It is a 22re. I think I will get a new gasket and see if that helps out a bit. I know the top nuts have a torque of 9 in-lbs, but what in the heck do you do to keep if from leaking. I did that and mine leaked like crazy. I then tightened it up (this was all a few months back) and back to the same deal, tapping on the cover.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #44 on:** Jun 14, 2011, 12:43:41 AM »

I pulled all the jets on the carb that came with the engine and here is what I got:

primary/secondary

Air jets - 165/160
Main fuel - 130/140
Primary idle - 50
Secondary idle - 50
double pump jet at top (don't know what it is called) - 50

I will compare this to what I have in my 32/36 in my truck tomorrow.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #45 on:** Jun 14, 2011, 08:33:11 AM »

Quote from: live4soccer7 on Jun 14, 2011, 12:43:41 AM

I pulled all the jets on the carb that came with the engine and here is what I got:

primary/secondary

Air jets - 165/160
Main fuel - 130/140
Primary idle - 50
Secondary idle - 50
double pump jet at top (don't know what it is called) - 50

I will compare this to what I have in my 32/36 in my truck tomorrow.

those are good jets for a 20R, but way small for a 22R

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #46 on:** Jun 14, 2011, 06:49:35 PM »

Here is what I found on my actual current setup. The other specs were on an old 32/36 carb that was on the engine previously. The new numbers here are what I currently have on my engine with a different 32/36 carb.

Primary/Secondary

Air Jets: 170/180
Main fuel: 140/150
Primary Idle: 60
Secondary Idle: 50
double pump jet at top - 50

Not sure where to go from here. The numbers actually seem a little higher. I looked at the plugs a couple days back and them seem to have a smooth black color to them. I believe this means it is running rich. Is this correct.

I took at look at this site:

http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingguide/sparkplugs/plugcolorchart.htm

Look at the very bottom row in the middle and that is what it seems to look like. Do you think I should increase the air jets or decrease the mains?

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #47 on:** Jun 14, 2011, 09:01:39 PM »

So after trying to tune the carb yet another time, I still wasn't able to get it to idle well without increasing the idle screw beyond 1.5 turns.

Just to check something before going any further, the ported vacuum shouldn't really have any vacuum when at idle correct? If so then I'm good. When I pressed the throttle the vacuum seemed apparent. Just want to be sure I don't have a vacuum leak. The idle vacuum from the mani was definitely there and strong at idle.

I pulled the #1 plug right after a good run on a warm engine with normal driving and WOT in 2nd, third and fourth gear. This is what is looks like like.

Here are the specs of the carb right now:

Primary/Secondary
Air Jets: 170/180
Main fuel: 140/150
Primary Idle: 60
Secondary Idle: 50
double pump jet at top - 50

From the link above, it seems that it is a lean condition overall. They also state that it could be from an overheat of the head, but the coolant temps seems to be spot on. What are your guys' thoughts on this? I actually expected the engine to run a little rich after finding the jet #'s, but that does not seem to be the case at all.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #48 on:** Jun 15, 2011, 12:55:54 AM »

I don't think that the engine should be running that lean with those numbers. Just doesn't make sense. A 140 and 150 main fuel jets are pretty large. LC's performance kit only has up to a 155 and a 150. Any ideas? I can decrease the air jets to a 165 and 170?

I have these air jets:
170
180
165
160

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #49 on:** Jun 16, 2011, 07:33:17 AM »

what elevation are you? if you are high up then you need larger air jets.

a little rich is better than being lean.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #50 on:** Jun 16, 2011, 02:52:21 PM »

~2300 ft.

Doesn't it appear that the plugs show signs of running lean? The whitish color on the probe and the extremely white part (not sure on the names). I would think larger air jets would allow for a leaner environment.

I sucked up and got the pro torque cam from LC with a 13 degree overlap, 102 intake centerline and a 118 exhaust centerline. This should allow me to fill the cylinder much better than my current cam. The pro torque cam has a lift of .455 and will work with stock valve train and with the stock 20r/22r setup. I will also be able to degree the cam 100% correct and adjust from there if I need to move the power band.

I figured that since I have some smaller jets with my old carb then I wouldn't need the economy jet set from lc, so I went with the performance jet kit. That should allow me a great combination of jets between the kit and the two carbs I have now.

This should allow me to get this thing running pretty dang well for what it is and I can hopefully finally put it all to rest once tuned.

So, what kind of issues could the slight piston slap (mentioned on the first post) cause and should it be attended to or just leave it. I really only want this engine in the truck for maybe 5yrs and probably won't see a ton of miles. I was reading around and it seems to address the piston slap it requires a rebuild. Is this true?

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #51 on:** Jun 16, 2011, 06:39:57 PM »

Quote from: live4soccer7 on Jun 16, 2011, 02:52:21 PM

~2300 ft.

Doesn't it appear that the plugs show signs of running lean? The whitish color on the probe and the extremely white part (not sure on the names). I would think larger air jets would allow for a leaner environment.

I sucked up and got the pro torque cam from LC with a 13 degree overlap, 102 intake centerline and a 118 exhaust centerline. This should allow me to fill the cylinder much better than my current cam. The pro torque cam has a lift of .455 and will work with stock valve train and with the stock 20r/22r setup. I will also be able to degree the cam 100% correct and adjust from there if I need to move the power band.

I figured that since I have some smaller jets with my old carb then I wouldn't need the economy jet set from lc, so I went with the performance jet kit. That should allow me a great combination of jets between the kit and the two carbs I have now.

This should allow me to get this thing running pretty dang well for what it is and I can hopefully finally put it all to rest once tuned.

So, what kind of issues could the slight piston slap (mentioned on the first post) cause and should it be attended to or just leave it. I really only want this engine in the truck for maybe 5yrs and probably won't see a ton of miles. I was reading around and it seems to address the piston slap it requires a rebuild. Is this true?

that white part is a ceramic insulation its supposed to be white.

do you mean this??

Quote

Something it has done since putting it in the truck is when you first start it up it sounds like there is a rattle for about 1 second (definitely coming from the engine side of things). Could this be a valve? Only does it on start and I believe a cold start only. It goes away and is never to be heard again. Now when driving under load at higher rpms there is a ping, I figure it was due to the timing. I timed it again and it still didn't go away. This led me to get the adjustable cam in order to get the timing on everything as good as possible.

with only 130 psi you might want to re ring this engine.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #52 on:** Jun 17, 2011, 12:41:49 AM »

I couldn't remember if that part was white or not. Thanks for informing me. I will evaluate it a little better and see which direction I will go with the jets.

The piston slap noise, yes that is what I was referring to. I don't think the rings are bad. I did a leakdown test with two cylinders at 6% loss, one at 13 (cylinder 2), and another 16 (cylinder 4). A little spread, but overall the numbers are pretty decent (within 10%). That was at 100 psi inlet when applied to the cylinder.

I think the low pressure ratings from the comp test are because of the cam. I have read that it can cause that. I was reading some info from Tom at engbdlr.com and he was saying that a stock engine before a cam would read about 170-180 and after the cam setup they were looking more like 140-150. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but it seems it is simply because of the cam.

Does anyone know the specs of the original/stock cam?

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #53 on:** Jun 18, 2011, 07:33:59 PM »

the stock cams have around .390 lift and after they get open the cam drops off fast so the valve almost snaps shut. this is fine for what these trucks were designed to do but to get out of your way on the interstate you need more duration and more lift.

what was your compression numbers

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #54 on:** Jun 19, 2011, 07:21:42 PM »

The compression numbers before all this started with a cam that had .413 duration was about 130 on each cylinder. The leakdown tested pretty well on all cylinders. The second time I did it it was a little worse on a couple cylinders, but the engine sat for a while after running so it could have thrown it off a little. That is what thinking, but I could be wrong. The numbers were a few % less (worse) than before.

I have the lc engineering pro torque cam with a lift of .455 coming this week along with a variety of jets and a new degree wheel (7" instead of 11") b/c the larger one doesn't fit with the water pump on. I'm going to put it all on and degree the cam, make sure it turns over by hand w/o any valve/piston issues and then tune the carb and go from there.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #55 on:** Jun 20, 2011, 09:30:36 AM »

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #56 on:** Jun 20, 2011, 11:35:09 AM »

I'll keep the thread updated. I will probably be stuck waiting for the 7" degree wheel, but I can install everything while waiting. As long as this goes well it will be a finished topic. I kinda think I will have valve to piston clearance issues though, regardless what the guy at LC said. Hopefully I am wrong. It should allow better flow b/c of the increase lift, lift duration, and valve open overlap.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #57 on:** Jun 21, 2011, 10:23:46 AM »

Holy smokes, the cam and jet kit came in today. I don't think I'm going to install the cam yet b/c I don't have the degree wheel, but I can at least work on getting the jets semi close. I think I will put the 65 primary idle jet in and see how that gets me as far as being able to tune it at idle.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #58 on:** Jun 21, 2011, 12:40:00 PM »

When i got the LC engineering cam it came with the paper work for installation and they stated a way to check for proper clearance that should have been obvious. You simply screw in the rocker screw that you adjust the lash with so that it opens the valve .080" and then rotate engine and check for any interference issues. The min is .100", but I'm assuming there are some tolerances in there. Can't believe I didn't think of that. If for some reason I have to pull the head this thing is definitely getting a port, polish, and the largest valves that are able to fit.

live4soccer7 · « **Reply #59 on:** Jun 21, 2011, 10:12:54 PM »

Got around to messing with the primary idle jet and in order to get it within specs for adjustments. I had to go from a 60 to a 75 in order to get it to an acceptable manner according to redline's 32/36 weber tuning setup.

Anyone know about the function of the secondary idle jet?

edit: after some research it seems that the secondary idle jet is the bridge between the primary and the secondary circuits, so it actually has nothing to do with the idle when the the plates are closed. Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.

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