Fire Guys Racing's transformation from 7s to 7200/Class 6 w/ Camburg Suspension

[FireGuysRacing]

Question: What are teams doing to control brake dive? An electronically adjustable front dampener reading brake pressure or brake pedal travel comes to mind. An accelerometer could be used. Or a mechanical solution, maybe have a rear valve similar to a brake proportioning valve that would somehow increase the front dampening or spring rate by engaging an additional bump stop/valve?

Hey Big Mike, nothing that I know of as of now in regards to control brake dive??  The Trophy Trucks all have a considerable amount of dive under braking and the pro-truck that Jason and I drove in the Baja 1000 also had a ton of weight transfer as well.  Something to think about though!

[BigMike]

Hey Big Mike, nothing that I know of as of now in regards to control brake dive??  The Trophy Trucks all have a considerable amount of dive under braking and the pro-truck that Jason and I drove in the Baja 1000 also had a ton of weight transfer as well.  Something to think about though!

Thanks for the reply. I can see available front up-travel being helpful in the case of braking while going through a large dip or bump, and a wide range of weight distribution gives the driver a better range for sensing the balance of the truck. But since high speed and handling is important, it seems to have waste energy and loss of responsiveness. During brake dive, the roll center shifts forward causing the rear tires to have less available traction to aid with braking. You also loose caster and if a large change in toe angle occurs (in either direction), then it also adds a great deal of stress on your steering links. I've never driven a high powered, super soft, flexy truck at high speeds on a slippery and uneven road surface, so I could be so far out in left field, but it seems vehicle dynamics could be improved using sensors to control when or when not to activate such limitations (as you do want very plush front suspension when you are not heavy on the brake). Maybe there are regulations to active suspension?

Ultimately, it would be horrible to be heavy braking with specifically-limited front suspension while simultaneously hitting a 1-foot tall bump in the road. That is something an active system wouldn't be able to get around short of using (presumably unreliable) proximity/awareness sensors. That is probably why such brake dive is tolerated.

Hmmmm The opposite could apply. How about limiting rear suspension down travel based on braking force? This would help stabilize the vehicle but I don't think it will help with rear traction. At any rate, with such weight transfers, gaining rear traction is less beneficial than we'd like to think. But still... Limit rear extension while keeping plenty of front suspension up travel. I wonder how it would respond.

You could test this. Install rear limiting straps to prevent excessive rear extension, then compare braking distances. If the braking distance is reduced, then you could focus on altering the rebound rate of the rear shocks (increase the dampening to the moon!!) ONLY when applying heavy brakes. This however, I'm not sure how you'd accomplish

Just thinking out loud

Regards,
BigMike

[FireGuysRacing]

Hey BigMike, I get what you are saying.  Have you ever watched a video of a Trophy Truck coming into a corner?  They are on the brakes and gas almost at the same time or alternating the brake and gas very close to one another to get the vehicle to do what they want it to do.  Brake to slow and get the front to bight and get the vehicle to go in the direction they want, then on the gas to rotate the rear to finish the turn.  It is a dance in weight transfer.  Everything in the suspension travel and alignment is a give and take.  Take some of the dive away in braking you give up something somewhere else.  Some sort of active suspension fluid connected to a brake sensor will help by increasing the damping in the shocks but what happens when you hit that big bump going into the corner?  The dampening has been increased to compensate for braking but you hit the bump and now it upsets the front and transfers the energy to the rear suspension upsetting the whole vehicle?  I really do not know what the answer is.  Just telling you what has been done in the past by teams that have way more $$ than we do.  This is not to discount your ideas in any way, I just don't know any better and we have been paying close attention to what the big $$ guys do and try to make it happen in our world.

[FireGuysRacing]

I know FoxShox is coming up with a sort of active shock for off road with some pre programmed settings.  I believe it has to do with the by-pass tube adjustment that can be controlled from the inside of the truck.  There are 3 settings, something like rally road, medium bumps and big bumps.  Nothing to do with braking as far as I know.

[FireGuysRacing]

In our 7s truck with limited travel we cranked the heck out of the torsion bars to increase the spring rate so it worked well while going over bumps at speed.  This in turn made the front end pogo at low speed while in the big bumps but it seemed to work out the best overall.

[BigMike]

Man, really cool stuff Jason. I'd love to come watch you guys in action sometime. I've seen videos of trophy trucks and your description makes perfect sense, however I will watch some more YT to better understand the quick brake to throttle transition. Question: Are the trophy trucks mid-engine or front engine? That would be fundamentally different than your rig in terms of weight transfer.

Regards,
BigMike

[FireGuysRacing]

Hey BigMike,
Trophy Trucks are both mid and front engine.  Robby Gordon's truck is mid engine.  Most are front engine.  We are hoping to be racing in Vernal, UT June 27th! 

[BigMike]

We are hoping to be racing in Vernal, UT June 27th!

* BigMike wonders if this is something his wife would want to do for her birthday.

[Wainiha]

 ^ Keep wishing BigMike

[FireGuysRacing]

* BigMike wonders if this is something his wife would want to do for her birthday.

Oh $hit, Fire Guys Racing does not want to get anywhere near that decision!!  We think you should spend a romantic time with your wife on the beach in Pismo or Morro Bay or something like that!!! 

PS this is Paul the other half of Fire Guys Racing who has been posting up and answering your questions, no biggie.  Both Jason and I have access to the FireGuysRacing account on the Marlin forum.  I grew up on the central coast that is why I suggest Pismo or Morro Bay for a sweet birthday getaway!!!  I know you guys get hot in the valley!!!

[FireGuysRacing]

back to what BigMike and I were discussing...I believe Robby Gordon runs a mid engine V-drive trophy truck because the weight is all in the center of the vehicle.  That means he must transfer the weight thru driving to get his trophy truck to do what he wants.  The advantages as I see it are that the roll center, and weight transfer from front to rear are minimized as well as lateral g forces in the corner due to chassis design and engine/transmission location.  It will corner with less roll and weight transfer. The disadvantage is that it takes a driver who understands this and can really drive the truck, you need to manage your inputs on the brake and gas to transfer the weight of the vehicle to provide traction where needed!  I know this sounds easy but both Jason and I work at a road racing track and the same principles apply no matter what surface your are trying to go fast on!!

[BigMike]

Whoops, sorry about that Paul

So I'm thinking to tell me wife that the FireGuys Racing Team has personally guaranteed her enjoyment at having her birthday celebrated at Vernal, Utah

Just kidding I wonder if others are going to switch or not to mid engine. Any comments on using the throttle to stabilize the vehicle while airborne? I'd think it would be easier to control if the overall weight distribution was more neutral. My old 1/10th Team Associated RC10T team truck was rear engined but most of the newer R/C trucks are mid engined I believe.

We are also seeing more Rock Crawlers go mid engine. Look at the King Of The Hammers. Also single seaters to save weight.

I'd love to come drive your 2ZZ-GE powered cars sometime. I just took my 6-speed Supercharged MR2 to Thunderhill last month, first time ever on a track and it was AMAZING! Pics: http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web150322/58/

I'm heading to Laguna Seca next.

Looking forward to some awesome videos of your guy's rig playing this year

[FireGuysRacing]

Hey BigMike, it does not seem like many TT's are switching to mid engine.  With the engine behind the driver and 90 gal of fuel and spare tires ect all behind the driver I would think the balance of the vehicle would be towards the rear??  Thus the weight transfer to the front for a corner would be more important. 

As far as throttle to stabilize the vehicle in the air goes, just make sure you are on the gas on the way up the face of the jump. 

The cars at the track are actually 1ZZ powered and yes they are fun.  Looks like you have a good time in your MR2 as well!  Laguna Seca should be a hoot, let me know what you think of the corkscrew!

[FireGuysRacing]

Did a little testing last weekend...

[FireGuysRacing]

A longer video of testing last weekend, enjoy!

[BigMike]

Awesome

[kneedownnate]

So I'm just gonna throw this out there, but any time you guys wanna have me come down and "drive" your truck, and I use that term loosely, feel free to just ask!

[Wainiha]

So I'm just gonna throw this out there, but any time you guys wanna have me come down and "drive" your truck, and I use that term loosely, feel free to just ask!

I already tried that ...Of course I'm 1000's of miles away.  I still didn't expect a "yes" though.  I be happy to just crawl around inside/out and under.

[kneedownnate]

I'm hoping I have a proximital advantage 

[FireGuysRacing]

Here goes a shot at our BOR Mike Hickey Memorial Dinosaur Dash race:
1 week before the race the truck was tested and ready to go. While testing/getting some seat time in the 1/2 1600 car Marisa Fowler Hutter & Jason Hutter had the transaxle let go, bummer. Jason Hutter, Jason Harvey and Paul Blangsted worked on the transaxle and found a broken ring and pinion. Ordered parts overnight from RC Trans and Jason Hutter and Jason Harvey pulled an all night shift Wednesday night putting it back together. 1st time for us truck guys getting to the internals of a VW transaxle. Jason Hutter went home, got some sleep and Thursday afternoon put the transaxle and engine back in the car, verified it shifted and loaded it onto the trailer and headed for Grand Junction.

Friday was spent getting the truck loaded and helping out our new teammate Richard Nowlin and his class 1 car. Kevin Grove headed to Richards house to look into a brake issue. We sent Kevin with a couple of spare master cylinders that we had and a new larger 1" master was installed, brakes work. It's time to hit the road so we can make the 3pm prerun.

We get to Vernal, UT just in time to off load the class 1 car and 1/2 1600 for the prerun and the drivers/co-drivers pile into their rides for the prerun with the class 7 drivers/co-drivers in Jason Hutter's Raptor and off we all go. Prerun goes well and the 1/2 1600 makes it around the 10.5 mile course, yippie!

Time to unload the truck and get our race cars tech inspected. Go to pull the truck out and there is a nice puddle of water under her. Check it out and find a leaking radiator, great. Jason Hutter makes a run to the parts store for some aluma seal while the other cars get tech inspected. While running in the aluma seal we notice another issue, the alternator is not working. Another parts run.

The crew works together to install the new alternator get it in and fire up the truck, still no output from the alternator. What the heck is going on? The team troubleshoots the issue, look at the diagram to make sure it's hooked up properly and nothing. At about midnight we pull the NEW alternator and head into town for food and sleep.

Saturday (race day morning) we get up early and head to the parts store at 7:30am and have them test the alternator, it failed! and they don't have another one. Head to another parts store and they have one, yes! Can you test it for us? They look at us funny but say yes. Put in on the bench tester and guess what? It FAILED too and they don't have another one. Head to a 3rd parts store and they have one. Can you test it? Another funny look but off to the bench tester we go. They put in the part # and the machine does not recognize it so it won't test. We roll the dice and buy it and hurry to the pits to get to work before the race.

While installing the alternator Marisa Hutter and Paul "Canadian" Massey are in the 1/2 1600 car running in their heat. Marisa and Paul make it around 1 lap and start to hear some noise and stop in the pits. Jason Hutter takes a quick look and sends them out. half way around the 2nd lap the side cover on the transmission breaks and the race is over for them, dang it! I guess us truck guys have a little more to learn about VW transaxles.

With the alternator installed and putting out voltage Jason Hutter and Jason Harvey jump in the truck and head over to the start line just in time for their heat. The Jason's line up for the green flag and off they go. While shifting from 1st to 2nd gear something happens and the truck is in neutral with the shifter flopping around. Well that lasted all of 200 feet and the truck is steered off course and heat 1 is done.

Richard Nowlin and Kevin Grove took the green flag and are out running the course and after lap 1 start hearing noise from the back of the car. About 1/2 way around lap 2 they stop to find a CV boot has come off and the timing cover (plastic) on the
Acura v-6 is melted exposing the timing belt and pulleys, race over.

Time is spent recovering the broken cars and the truck is sitting in the pits. The decision is made to pull off the shifter and take a look to see what is wrong. It's a broken shifter, the internal shifting mechanism is ok! Sam Grove locates a welder across the pits from TT #57 (thanks) and Ian takes the shifter over and welds 'er up. Install it check that it shifts and off to the start line for heat #2.

Paul Blangsted and Kevin Grove take the green flag and had a fun little battle with Richard Cretsinger in his new class 8 truck off the start. Paul and Kevin take a lap to get used to the new suspension and settle into a nice pace and race to the checkers! Success at last!

Thanks to everyone who helped us get to this race and push thru the challenges presented. Jason Hutter, Paul Blangsted, Kevin Grove, Sam Grove, Jessica Grove, Marisa Hutter, Paul Massey, Jason Harvey, Ian, Richard Nowlan.

Thanks to Doug Hayduk and Project Baja for a couple of those pictures!

https://youtu.be/nbrsyJsjFNk

[FireGuysRacing]

One more video!

Jason

[FireGuysRacing]

Shock testing with Fox in Plaster City, CA

https://youtu.be/ophv4X4sCNc

[FireGuysRacing]

3rd place at the CODE RaceReady 275!!  Thanks Marlin Crawler for all your help!!

[FireGuysRacing]

Rage at the River ended early for us!  Too much power pushed thru the Marlin Crawler Transmission for the stock (gusseted) Ford 9" housing!  Next time!

[twistedtoy92]

Ouch!

[FireGuysRacing]

Happy New Year Everyone!! Here is a video of Fire Guys Racing as we head out from Colorado to tune the suspension of multiple race cars, race two races in two countries, and prep for these races all while on the road! Grab your favorite beverage and come on this adventure with us!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtVzzspRVck

Edit by BigMike: embedded video. I need to fix the script to make it more compatible.

[FireGuysRacing]

Racing the BITD Laughlin Desert Classic May 4-7 in Laughlin, NV.  Just finishing up the brake lines on the new Camburg rear housing.

[THK Matt]

you guys bring the B.I.T.C.H.I.N to desert racing. true artwork. what a transformation that truck has made

[FireGuysRacing]

Nice shot of the Marlin Crawler sticker in the LCE ad!

[BigMike]

NICE