new to this, dont know a thing

[Zane]

so a few months ago, i got my first truck. 1998 toyota tacoma 5spd 6inch lift on 35s, 5.29 gearing. Ive been looking into doing a sas swap and i was wondering if any of you guys had any advice. I'm not much of a fabricator and i dont know how i should proceed. I was told that i could use a front axle from a 88 grand wagoneer, but ive been having trouble finding one. I was also looking into building my own, but i have no clue how. maybe one of you guys could tell me the best way to go about it. im working with a budget of around 6k including installation. Any advice? thanks

[BLACKDOG]

Are you new to the wheeling scene, or just to toyotas? 

If I were you, I'd run what you've got, and learn from the beginning.  you're already set up pretty good, do you have lockers?

An SAS is not necessary for a lot of trails, and running with the disadvantages of an IFS will teach you how to pick your lines well, and make you a better wheeler in the long run.  I would also recommend looking into lockers and duals long before the SAS. You will find those far more advantageous than the SAS in my opinion. 

I ran a similar setup from 2003-2009, adding duals and lockers along the way.  I had a '91 pickup, it did several trips through the rubicon, fordyce, moonrocks, and trails all through the CA national forests.  In '09 was when I went to a solid axle, and I did it due to the fact that I had tweaked the IFS frame to the point that the axles didn't seat right any more.  Toyota IFS systems handle a lot of abuse, contrary to what you may have heard.


If you do want to go ahead with a SAS, I'd lean toward going with 1 tons, which is what I did.  If you want to keep youre rear end, you'll need what you mentioned, a wagoneer axle.  I would imagine most wagoneers would work, not just the 88, but I'm not sure.  You'll need an axle with a diff on the same side as you're t-case output, a spring hanger up front, need to drill holes in the frame and weld in tubes, springs, shackles, might need to move/rotate the spring perches on the axle, you'll need an adapter for your driveline, extended brake lines, etc.

There is a lot of welding involved, cutting, grinding, etc. 

If you poke around under project research and buildups, you'll find a lot of SAS info.  My buildup is under the title "3.0 killer"

[BoG-ToY]

I agree with black dog, wheel what you've got BUT I think that if your going duals, you should consider getting the adapters to run a passenger offset dual configuration and then you can run the other years of the wagoneer (some are passenger some are driver) OR you could go with toyota axles at this point. In something like a tacoma, you might consider an fj60 front axle, but a regular mini truck axle would be fine, and you would be keeping it all toyota.
If I was running a tacoma I would either go with 1ton axles, or I would go duals and a toyota axle. I dont know that I would want to be tied down to such a weird axle.

[superyota]

big question that will help determine a lot of your questions is what kind of a budget do you have to play with?  thats where i would start.

[BoG-ToY]

he said 6k for the SAS,

depending on how much he is comfortable doing himself, he might be able to get a usable mini truck axle and the dual stuff under the front end

[superyota]

he said 6k for the SAS

my bad for not reading all the way through.  i would start with buying a nice mig welder, practice til you get the hang of it so you can do most of the work yourself. 
for axles, being your going to be driver side drop, i would go with a 60/60 or 60/14 combo. i wuoldn't waste time looking at a waggy 44.  for 6k, you could put 1 ton axles in it, geared with lockers, have all your steering, brakes, etc. finished. and go with dual toyota cases and still have money left over.  just my 

[Zane]

Thanks for the info, guys. I was most likely going to try to buy all the parts that i would need to build the axle myself, and then pay to get all the fab work done. But I've never built an axle before and was wondering more along the lines of what i would need parts wise. this truck is also my daily driver, but i wheel it regularly and after 8 months, 3-4 times a week i feel like ive got it pretty worked out. My main reason for wanting to do the swap in the first place was for increased durability that was more reliable and easier to maintain. thanks again, and ill check out the project research and buildups. 

[Sparkplug]

x2 Buy a welder, and tools. The help sooooooo much more than anything else.

[BoG-ToY]

Hey, you might want to consider giving us an IDEA where you are located? unless I miss that part... lol

there is a decent number of guys on here that have GOOD experience doing the SAS, good chance more then the shop is gonna have.
I always think its funny the guys  who pay to have something done, only to find out it was done WRONG

[superyota]

Hey, you might want to consider giving us an IDEA where you are located? unless I miss that part... lol

there is a decent number of guys on here that have GOOD experience doing the SAS, good chance more then the shop is gonna have.
I always think its funny the guys  who pay to have something done, only to find out it was done WRONG

Very true, and very sad. 

[BoG-ToY]

Yeah for sure, and some of the guys will do it for cheap, or small parts.....

HEY since your doing this under a tacoma. you should look into the FROR tacoma brake kit...

Basically, pay 100 bucks and find some cheaper IFS wheel hubs, get them ground down. run smaller wheel spacers up front.

possibly get some IFS wheel hubs for 30 bucks for a pair on here (NOT LOCKOUTS)
or even TRADE your SFA wheel hubs strait across  so youd be into it a little more then 130 and keep your good tacoma

instead of wheel spacers (60+)
fj60 rotors (60-140 depending on who you buy from)
IFS calipers (30-150 depending)
custom brake lines (might still need longer ones for your tacoma, so no price here)
so actually savings of 20-200 dollars

[Zane]

I am in the foothills in California, less than an hour from the rubicon. I appreciate all your guys help, but i really dont have any knowledge of trucks. You guys have been a big help so far, but now i am at a point that i need to research the info i have been given. If i paid to get the fab work done, i know of one or two shops around here, and i have also been in contact with a guy who works for inchworm. from what i understand they know their stuff, and do good work. As far as doing the work myself, i inherited a bunch of tools from my dad, but i would need a 240 welder. I have done quite a bit of welding all through high school, and after i graduated i took community college classes. I am a little rusty but i should be able to pick it up pretty quickly. I just dont know if i feel comfortable doing it on a truck that is my only means of transport. thanks again

[Zane]

And another reason i would pay to get it done is they could do it faster than i could. keep in mind i work 6 days a week, and cant afford to be out a vehicle for that long.

[Sparkplug]

I wouldnt feel comfortable havin someone else build my truck, but thats just me. It doesnt cost that much to build em, if you are willing to wait, and find deals

[Zane]

When you guys say run duals, what does that mean? As for lockers, a buddy of mine says i have them, but i dont know other than his word. is there an easy way to check? this is the stuff i dont know about lol.

[BoG-ToY]

you probably have a rear locker? which is awesome

shouldnt have one up front,

as far as duals, its dual transfer cases..... allows LOW rangex2  you have way more low gear options....

you have
high high

high low

low low.

this provides for ultimate tracktion

[Zane]

Ok thanks. Ill look into that. Im still pretty set on the sas, because its kind of a gift, but I definitely am going to wait until i learn more about it. you guys have been a big help in the short time i have been here. any other advice would be appreciated thanks again

[BoG-ToY]

yeah.... just look around,

I think going duals to get you to a passenger offset so you can run a mini truck axle is a good idea?

[Zane]

If i decided to go with the dual transfer case setup, what would i need to buy? Is there fab work involved or is it all bolt up? As far as doing the sas swap, i still want to, but maybe at a later date. When you say mini truck are you referring to like small pickups instead of fullsize? Like my rear axle?

[BoG-ToY]

Yeah, the vehicles that marlin deal with mostly are the mini trucks. instead of full size full width

the dual case is bolt on to an extent, you gotta modify floorboards, get new driveshafts... gotta come up with two transfer cases.
at this point your going to be passenger offset on the transfer case which wont work with your IFS suspension

[Zane]

Ok. So your saying if i do the sas swap i should also do duals. is this something i should do at the same time? or could i do the swap, then go duals later? Bear in mind that this is my only vehicle. I dont want to make it strictly off road, but i want it to perform better off road and be more durable.

[Zane]

haha i get your first comment now that i have read it again. I see. now i still think i would pay someplace like Inchworm gear to do the work, cuz i hear they are good and i dont want it in the shop or at my house on jackstands for an extended period of time. whats your take on that?

[BoG-ToY]

if you can get a hookup with inchworm to install your duals and a toyota mini front axle, GO FOR IT...

I believe inchworm had a hand in the first marlin crawlers?   Im not sure something about non-tapered clutch hub teeth?

Yeah you would have to do both at the same time in order to keep it 4wd.. you could do EITHER Separate but you would not be able to install a front driveshaft.....

I dont think the SAS or the duals if done correctly would be a hindrance to the onroad behavior at all?
Only problem with going through inchworm is they might want there product rather then what most of us do with picking whats best for the operation...

Maybe get them to give you a print up of the parts they want you do use.. and let the people on here go over it and tell you if they are trying to push there parts? (like I said, I think the FROR kit would be best option for your front brakes, you already run taco calipers and rotors)

[BLACKDOG]

Trying to catch up, I just read quickly through. 

1) Duals are more benifical than SAS IMO.  If you want to stick with your stock width axles, I'd either go with the drivers side drop front axle, or do everything at the same time.  If you want to go one tons, it doesn't really matter, because you can find D60s in either flavor (drivers side drop or pass side drop).  Drivers side can actually be more beneficial, because ford offered a high pinion (more clearance) d60.

2) A SAS doesn't require as much downtime as you may think.  You'll actually find that a shop will have it longer than you would, esp. since you know how to weld (if you're confident of your welding).  You can weld on your front spring hanger, and drill the holes/weld in the tubes for your shackle mounts without touching the IFS.  A weekend is plenty of time to do a full SAS, if you can take a single day off.

3)Since you admittedly said you know next to nothing about trucks, I would honestly consider running what you've got for a while.  Save to money, and wheel.  IFS is not unreliable by any means, and you will definitely appreciate the skills you learn wheeling with what you've got. 



As for checking to see if you've got a locker, in the rear or front, theres a pretty simple test. check your dash to see if you've got a switch for an elocker.  If you don't have a switch, you may have a detroit, or similar.  You can test these by simply lighting it up on a dirt road.  If you get dirt kicking up from both back wheels, you've got a locker.  You can also just put the truck on jackstands and hit the gas.  If only one wheel on the rear spins in 2wd, you don't have a locker, if both do, you do have a locker.  Same test for the front, but in 4x4.

To explain duals, basically you're doubling your low gear.  Youv'e got you're transmission, then the front half of a t-case (or crawlbox), then a full t-case.  In your truck, you'll see 3 shifters.  The middle t-case only has 2 options, low and high.  So if you put your truck in 1st gear, with the rear t-case in 4lo, you've got your stock low gear.  Moving the middle t-case from high to low, you essentially double your low range. 

Most toy trucks with a gear drive t-case have a 2.28:1 low range.  So if you have two gear drive cases, you have 2.28x2.28:1 low range when both t-cases are in low. 

If you want to know what your lowest gear range is, you simply multiply all your ratios.

For example, I have a 3.93 1st gear, a 2.28 t-case, and a 2.56 t-case (chain drive behind a 3.0) with 5.13 axle gears.  this equates to a 117.6:1 gear ratio.  If I didn't have my crawl box, the ratio would be 52:1. 

[Zane]

A few months back, i talked to a guy via email from inchworm. i asked him basic details like how much it would cost, and he wasnt specific about what i should use, but he was telling me to build my own was going to cost 6k not including installation. That seemed expensive to me, cuz I've heard of people doing it for half that. I think he was just trying to sell their products to someone who didnt know about it. I'll see if i can get in touch with him and ask him some more questions. BLACKDOG, bog-toy was saying i should get the duals and the sas at the same time.

[Snowtoy]

With only 8 months of wheeling under your belt(though plenty of trips), and still needing it to be a comfy daily driver, I would just put in a set of dual cases, in it and keep  the Taco IFS for now.  Dual cases should almost be your first upgrade after body armor.  If you end up not having a rear locker, an ARB would be the best choice for a daily.  Depending on what deals you find, and doing the removal/install work yourself, this should you between $2500-3k, leaving you plenty of the $6k left over for a future SAS.  

Since you have some mechanical ability(welding) you should be able remove the stock case, and install a dual set-up at home, only having to pay for rental of equipment and not the shop hourly rate.  Also since you can weld, I would rent a welder, cut a used rear drive shaft down so you can drive the truck while you have a drive line shop build you new front and rear drive lines.  For a rear locker(if you don't have one), expect to pay between $150-200 for bench work, and you should only be without your truck for 24hrs, i.e., take it in one day and pick it up the next.

If the Taco is still clean, you might consider leaving it as it is, and take the $6k you were going to spend on the SAS/dual cases, and buy a rig that is already built.  Completely built rigs w/all of the goodies aren't retaining much more value than a few grand over the stock blue book value theses days, and can often be found even cheaper.  Something like this 4runner dual cases - $4100 (Concord),
or this 84 Xtra cab - $3500 (rocklin)(would likely want to swap out the diffs), depending on their condition might be a better choice than building the Taco.  You could then keep the Taco as a daily, or sell it and pick up a 2wd truck or car as a daily, and possibly come out w/a few grand still in your pocket.

[BoG-ToY]

As blackdog said about the SAS only taking a weekend...  He is totally correct (ok so you might without 4wd for a few weeks) 

same thing goes for the duals if you buy the right parts?

I tacked my front hanger up, welded in my frame tubes...

I assembled my front axle completely, with LOOSE u-bolt flip kits, the front springs I was going to run, NO BRAKES but wheels.

I parked my truck, jacked it up, pulled my tires, pulled my brakes, unbolted and cut off everything that was in my way with a sawsall, I rolled my complete front end under the truck.

2.5 hours after I parked my truck, I drove it again with a SAS, It was 2wd and there was PLENTY of finishing to do... BUT if you do a lot of planning ahead, you could do it ALL in your day off.

(I did not move my steering box and that can take some time, I also did not have shock hoops at this time) 

I think that if you ordered a complete ready to install dual ultimate from a company, ready to bolt on, your going to pay for it, BUT ITS GONNA BE RIGHT...

for this portion, you Might either need to plan ahead, or be without your rig, your rear driveshaft will need to be shorter. you can either find out how much longer you are going to be... and get a pre-fabbed shaft that SHOULD be within an inch?  But better would be to install the cases and then get your front and rear driveshafts both made at the same time.

I honestly think other then waiting on the driveshafts...  this could be completed in two single day weekends if you can devote the 16 hrs to it....

(there will be cleanup, you will have to work on interior, front end frame cleanup, and other such fun stuff)

other then that 90% can be outpatient surgury, 

ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANYTHING TO COMMENT (my redneck style of sas might be a  little rushed?)

[Zane]

Blackdog, I did what you said and put my truck on jackstands, and found out i have lockers in front and rear. In your first post in this thread, you said i should go duals, but not the SAS. So how would i put duals in and keep it 4x4 with the IFS? Bog-toy said that if i went duals i couldnt use my IFS and keep it 4x4, unless he was telling me just how to get the passenger offset. 

[Snowtoy]

You can run duals with the IFS, one doesn't effect the other.  What Bog-toy and others were referring to was if you go with duals now and not an SAS you have to go a Driver's side drop SA when you do the SAS, eliminating the ability to use a Toyota min truck straight axle, w/o spending more money.

[Sparkplug]

I dont know how the hell u guys r doin a sas in a weekend, by yourselves at least. You can hang a axle that fast, but thats the easy part. Getting it to drive smooth, straight, and clear everything when stuffed is the hard part. If you rush through the job, you will be able to tell. A build should depend on what you want to eventually do with the truck.
If you want a rock crawler, SAS it now, and be done with it. If you do duals, cvs r gonna start poppin. Not sayin they gonna breakl constantly, but that will be your weak link. A solid axle swap isnt hard if you can weld, its just time consuming. There are lots of small things that cost money, that add up. I suggest reading everything on PIRATE4X4.COM in the bible, should give you a good start as far as book smarts.
As far as what to get, well Ive always been the type that says armor is the first thing you should get. Not so much for the body, but for the drivetrain. Knuckle gussets, and a flat crossmember, shave plugs, dif armor, sliders. All can me fabbed or bought. After armor, gears. Id do duals first, then gear you difs. If you just starting out wheeling, dont lock the front yet, wheel it open till you get a feel for the rig.
A solid axle swap can be done cheap, under 500 bucks for everything, if you take your time to find deals. If you want to go all out buy eveyrthing new, ur lookin at around 800-1500 bucks, depending on vendor, and certain parts.