Topic: CARB 4WD Smog Petition/Issue

[Plekto]

It came to my attention today that CA is penalizing older 4WD vehicles behind our backs via smog checks.  I want to get a petition started to possibly address this/or at least make the off-roading community get involved.(maybe change things?)  Nobody seems to have noticed that CARB is doing this and made any sort of issue about it.

Here's what I have so far:
4Runner/22RE (2nd Gen 84-88)  Max allowable limits:

2004 15mph
HC 146
CO 1.04
NO 1136

25mph
? (no data)
? (No data)
NO 1222

2008 15mph/25mph:
HC 131/101
CO 0.87/1.10
NO 1085/1120

2010 15mph/25mph:
HC 131/101
CO 0.61/0.77 (29.9% less/30% less)
NO 1085/1120


As you can see, "if your truck was running fine, it'd pass" isn't a valid comment any more.  They're actually making it progressively harder and harder for old vehicles to pass, despite their official stance being that they're not doing things like this to owners of older vehicles.

My goal is to get a petition started to address this, but I need data.  Hopefully as far back as you can find paperwork for.(late 80s/early 90s preferably.  I need to know when the limits peaked at today's levels, or if they are already at or below original limits back in the late 80s.  Obviously I'm looking for the "needs to pollute less now than when it was new" hand in the cookie-jar type proof if it exists.

So post your 2nd gen 4runner max limits if you have them/paperwork that's that old.

It just fries my brain that they expect my truck to pollute 30% less *now* than two years ago. 

[crazykooter]

This has been going on for a LONG time.   Your not gonna get it changed since the california air resource board has made it very clear they do not want older vehicles on the road.  Its the main reason for cash for clunkers program.   
My truck is hit by smog much harder then an efi rig.   I was unable to pass smog almost 2 yrs ago and ended up having to put a new engine in just to get it smogged even tho my old engine ran perfect it was just worn.   I have smog again this year and I am hoping it passes since my carb has been acting up. 
Soon I am just gonna do a 3rz swap or go propane. 

[Plekto [OP]]

True, but it's illegal for them to make a vehicle require more stringent limits than when it was new.  All we need is one example of them doing this.

[jimbo74]

True, but it's illegal for them to make a vehicle require more stringent limits than when it was new.  All we need is one example of them doing this.

not really..... all they have to do is come up with what these vehicles put out emissions wise when they were new....... if it isnt running as efficiently as it was then, you are sol

[Plekto [OP]]

The thing is, they don't have data for 1976-1987 in their database, so they are basing those years purely upon set formulas.  Expecting my truck to reduce emissions by 30% in two years, even as it approaches 25 years old is wrong.  They keep moving the goalposts, and to be honest, these levels are *just* above what the thing put out two years ago when it had a whole new smog and exhaust system on it. (40-50 CO is normal for a clean 22/22RE.  Setting the limit at 20% over new equipment levels is them just being jerks, given the age of these vehicles)   

Their "guidelines" are supposed to allow a few percent a year increase for new vehicles as they get older(unlike Japan which stays constant and requires new engines every 3-4 years to essentially meet).  But something's gone wrong with these old vehicles.  Instead of seeing the numbers go up slowly over time as they used to a decade or so ago, they are rapidly heading towards new or lower than new levels.  40% decrease in allowable limits in 5 years is worse than the ever-increasing percentages that they are trying to make diesel pass to keep it out of CA.  Except nobody is noticing this one.

I've also heard of a few people on a couple of Jeep forums talking about the fact that the levels seem off since they are basically making up the levels for those years/don't have new car data from that far back, but I'd like to get proof if I can.  Surely someone must have a smog check form the late 80s or early 90s in a filing cabinet/folder somewhere.

[emsvitil]

For 86 EFI XtraCab 22RE they haven't changed.

2005,2007,2009 max levels:

15
 HC 146
 CO 1.04
 NO 1136

25
 HC 118
 CO 1.32
 NO 1222


I need to find the site that has the formulas used.


The allowable numbers change with vehicle weight because that's part of the formula.

And strangly enough, the greater the vehicle weight, the less you're allowed.


I'd bet they haven't changed the formulas, but are changing the vehicle weights in the data base............... (although changing just the CO does seem weird, as all of them would change with a weight change)
 

I've never had any problems with the HC and CO, but NO has been iffy until I started using the exhaust restrictor after the cat for the test.......

[emsvitil]

May not be current:  (still looking for current version)

http://www.smogtips.com/Current%20Cut%20Scores.pdf


But you can work backwards to figure out what weight they are using.


Then if you can find the current version of the table, you can see if they've changed it.


If it hasn't changed, you have ammunition to argue with.......

[Plekto [OP]]

My 4runner doesn't match for any of the numbers on that chart for my 2006, 2008, or 2010 tests.  It's like they've just pulled junk out of thin air here.

Your 86 EFI XtraCab 22RE levels are what they used to be, or close to it, for over a decade, for a/my 4Runner(IIRC), but now it's been either reclassified as something else or just messed with.  I don't know if it's 4x4s that are being targeted here or SUVs.

[emsvitil]

My truck is considered a LDT1 or LDT2   (light duty truck 1/2)  They're the same specs in 86, so it really doesn't matter.

Seems that originally the 4runner was classified as a LDTx.

Maybe they changed it a passenger car (PC) which has lower limits.

[emsvitil]

At the top of the smog sheet under Vehicle Information I have

Type: Truck
Test Weight: 2750

If I use the test weight, the formula in the table gives me the same answers for MAX limits.



What does yours say at the top of the page?

[Plekto [OP]]

It says 3750 lbs(can be classified as either), but the actual weight of the vehicle is closer to 4000lbs.

But even then, the number's just aren't the same whether it's LT1 or LT2.  Something's been changed behind the scenes and I want to know what and why.

[emsvitil]

Found the current standards..............


http://www.bar.ca.gov/pubwebquery/cutpoints/ShowMake.aspx