Topic: 22RE + Header = less power????

[kneedownnate]

I went from an old 4 into 1 header to my nwor and have been fairly unimpressed.  I'd like to get my truck tuned a little better, re-gear, then switch to my downey header and see if there's a noticable difference. 

As for stuff you can do, efi limits you.  Like I said, check downey's website for the afm adjustment.  Once you have everything capped off properly you should be fine.  Did you say if you checked your timing?  I've also heard of people's motorbikes sitting around for a while then having no power, then the owner cuts the pipe in half and finds a mouse nest inside 

[Snowtoy]

I don't know why people are so insistent on believing *theories* they read on the internet.  I suggest people put it into effect themselves before blindly saying 2.5" is too big.

Not an internet theory in my experience from my own builds, and not from what I have learned from custom exhaust/engine builders.  I have had the same results on both the 22re and 3.0 engines when running an open exhaust.  Great for high end rpms, but at a loss of low end torque.  A few years back when I installed headers on my 3.0 after a top end rebuild, I went w/an open 2.5" exhaust system, using a hi-flow Mangaflow exhaust and Downey's hi-flow muffler, you could actually see  through the muffler.  I had almost no low end torque, and had to leave at 3k rpms from a stop.  On the highway I had to be deeper into the throttle just to maintain cruising speed of 70mph, any rise in the highway at 70/5th gear required a downshift, the rpm's at 70 were 2700 instead of 3500, my mileage dropped from 17(combined highway/city), to 13-14, and my trail mileage dropped from 11-13 to 7.  The only benefit I had from the open exhaust was on the high end.  I could easily hit 70mph and still pulling in 3rd gear and w/o the engine screaming, whereas w/the stock set-up it was about 55-60 mph and it would flatten out.  It was fun to drive at the higher rpm's, but the loss in mpg's wasn't worth it.  I went in and talked to some of the local custom exhaust builders and they all told me the same thing, I didn't have enough back pressure for the lower rpm's and that I either needed to run a smaller diameter pipe throughout, change the muffler, or I could try running a smaller diameter pipe from the muffler back(as they do on their race exhausts).  Seeing how I didn't care for the drone of the hi-flow muffler, and that both shops wanted more for a bent section of smaller tailpipe than a cheap turbo muffler cost I decided to change the muffler.  I went with a 3 chamber Turbo muffler and it did just what the shops said it should.  I got back my low end torque and mileage both on the highway and the trail, at 70 my rpms went from 2700-3k, and I didn't lose all that much off top end.  I can still easily push the engine to 65 in 3rd if/when I want to, but unlike the open system it begins to flatten out after that. 
 

I did, then a few years later necked it down to 2.25" and LOST low end response and power

If you have done all of the supporting mod's i.e., enlarged the cyls., enlarged the valves, port matched, intake upgrades, and advanced the MAF, then I can see why feel you had less performance w/the smaller exhaust then before, however w/an engine in its stock/near stock form a 2.5" tube and open muffler is simply too large.

[Snowtoy]

thanks. i did not know what kind of header i had. i bought a non running truck 4 $70 and the header was on it so i put it on my 4runner. if anyone knows of any other small motor mods they think i should try i would be interested in hearing them.

As mentioned with the efi it is a little tricky for cheap mods.  You can advance the MAF a little, but be careful, w/o supporting mod's like larger injectors you can lean it out and burn valves.  I would start by dropping down to a smaller diameter of tube between the cat and the muffler, and see if that helps w/the performance, or run a section of 2" tube w/similar bend to the oem system from the muffler back to to the original exit location.

After that you could open up the intake a little.  Some have gained a little performance from cutting a large hole in the air filter box(below the air filter of course) to draw in more air.  Removing the small pipe inside the box(on my '91) seemed to help some.  You could also wrap the intake tube w/cool tape so it doesn't absorb heat from the radiator/engine, cooler air = denser air, so the ecu will add more fuel to the mixture.  The tape runs about $15/roll from Summit racing.  You could also replace the oem intake w/an ope element one, though this isn't that cheap unless you can fab up your own plate(to attach the AFM to) and just buy the filter.  This would allow the engine to draw in more air, and is a more direct intake than the stock system, though the open element does have its own issues.

[94MtnYote]

 Snowtoy: you seem well informed, anyone ever told that you talk alot?    ha ha   

[kneedownnate]

If you have done all of the supporting mod's i.e., enlarged the cyls., enlarged the valves, port matched, intake upgrades, and advanced the MAF, then I can see why feel you had less performance w/the smaller exhaust then before, however w/an engine in its stock/near stock form a 2.5" tube and open muffler is simply too large.

Wrong again    I didn't FEEL like I lost low end, I did.  It wasn't merely my opinion, it was an actual occurance that happened on my truck, not a story told to me by some dudes who worked at a muffler shop.  I totally respect the guys who run the exhaust shop I deal with, but they feel all you need for toyotas is 2" and still sell me 2.5" without batting an eye.  They're learned over the last 14 years that I test my theories and ideas before buying the more expensive parts.

I started out with a 20r in my 80, went to a stock 22r and found a nice gain, then swapped out the head with a stock 20r unit and again noticed another gain, and only after settling on my engine setup did I start experimenting with different size tubing.

If you had to leave the line at 3,000 rpm after installing 2.5" exhaust, something else is probably wrong with your truck.  Again, nothing special with my engine, simple hybrid setup, crap-tastic weber, nwor tri-y header (which I'm only running because it's supposed to be torquier than the downey), 2.5" tubing with no cat before a 2.5" magnaflow, and with stock gears and 33s I can take off at idle.  The lack of gearing obviously hinders my take-offs on inclines and in snow or mud, but I have plenty of grunt to take off at a very low rpm and gain easily in normal driving conditions. 

Everybody's obviously entitled to their opinions, and what works on my truck may or may not work on the next guy's truck, or he may not execute it the way I have and may end up with different results.  I guess what I'm trying to stress is there is no blanket *perfect tubing size* like so many people like to pretend. 

Ok, that's the end of my thread hijack, there's probably nothing good that would come from any more discussion on this.

[94MtnYote]

 Looks like Snowtoy and Nate are the top contenders for a Pulitzer prize!!   

[Snowtoy]

Wrong again    I didn't FEEL like I lost low end, I did.  It wasn't merely my opinion, it was an actual occurance that happened on my truck, not a story told to me by some dudes who worked at a muffler shop.  I totally respect the guys who run the exhaust shop I deal with, but they feel all you need for toyotas is 2" and still sell me 2.5" without batting an eye.  They're learned over the last 14 years that I test my theories and ideas before buying the more expensive parts.

I started out with a 20r in my 80, went to a stock 22r and found a nice gain, then swapped out the head with a stock 20r unit and again noticed another gain, and only after settling on my engine setup did I start experimenting with different size tubing.

If you had to leave the line at 3,000 rpm after installing 2.5" exhaust, something else is probably wrong with your truck.  Again, nothing special with my engine, simple hybrid setup, crap-tastic weber, nwor tri-y header (which I'm only running because it's supposed to be torquier than the downey), 2.5" tubing with no cat before a 2.5" magnaflow, and with stock gears and 33s I can take off at idle.  The lack of gearing obviously hinders my take-offs on inclines and in snow or mud, but I have plenty of grunt to take off at a very low rpm and gain easily in normal driving conditions. 

Ok, that's the end of my thread hijack, there's probably nothing good that would come from any more discussion on this.

Before blowing a gasket, reread my post.  I didn't cal BS on your experience, I said I could see why it felt like you lost low end torque, after dropping down to a smaller diameter tube.   Absent a dyno or 1/4 mile times, all we have to judge by is how it feels to drive it. 

While you may think your set-up is simple it isn't, it definitely isn't a stock 22r(e) w/a header and 2.5" tube, which is what the OP's is.  All of your mod's together is likely why you have had better performance/experience than others when running a 2.5" exhaust behind a 22r(e).

My experience with the open exhaust on my 3.0, and needing a higher rpm to leave from a stop is/was identical to member on another board who was rebuilding/modifying his at the same time I was.  However he didn't mind it too much and left it open.  However he had a std. cab truck and still basically stock, while I on the other hand have a modified X-Cab which weighs in at over 4600lbs w/o passengers.  I really didn't care for having to load up on the clutch just to get moving from a stop, or the loss in mpg's while on the highway/trail.  I felt it wasn't a benefit to the higher end power, and he did.  Who knows had my truck been stock I may have felt the same way.   Also if I had other issues w/the 3.0, simply adding a Turbo muffler over the open Downey one wouldn't have solved the low end torque issue I had.  I like you have actual performance feel as well as mpg numbers to base my experience on. 

[kdo58]

here is a good link on exhaust theory
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscellaneous/exhausttheory.htm

[kneedownnate]

I can see why feel you had less performance

I may only have a 3rd grade education, but that sure reads like you're calling bs to my experience 

For the last several years I've had a 91 with the stock 22re except for a k&n stock replacement filter, and I'll find out soon enough whether or not I'll lose power or mileage when I install my 2.5" system on it.  My prognosis is no, but that's only from having the same system on another nearly identical truck 

Again, none of this is beneficial to the original poster.  I strongly suggest snowtoy starts his own exhaust tubing size thread and see if any facts can find their way into it, or if it'll just be more theory.

[SolidAxle]

I'll throw up my EXPERIENCE for you guys to bash around. I have a rebuilt 22re, comp cams 252s cam (low rpm range). My exhaust is 2 1/4 all the way back and exits like stock. I have a magnaflow (open style) muffler pn 11225 and a magnaflow cat. The truck does not accelerate much above 4000rpm. I noticed a big difference in responce by modding my AFM. It became much more responsive even at lower rpms. I would like a little more bottom end and if i did it again i would probably try 2" all the way.

I also think playing with ignition timing would make a difference. setting it by turning it till it pings and backing it off does not work well for me. I find i have more power if I retard it even more.

[Snowtoy]

I may only have a 3rd grade education, but that sure reads like you're calling bs to my experience 

If  this is the extent of your ability to understand the English language in its written form, then you really do need to take a few reading/comprehension classes.

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but seeing how you feel the need to argue your results, even though no one said they are BS, I am starting to think your claims are just BS.  It is time to put-up or shut-up, and produce some dyno results w/the 20/22r truck w/header and 2.5" vs 2.25" exhaust and prove everyone else wrong.

[blackdiamond]

Absent a dyno or 1/4 mile times, all we have to judge by is how it feels to drive it.

I don't really have an opinion on either side of this, but I do know that what a driver "feels" in the seat of his pants isn't always the whole story.

Example: If you were to drive a 2000 SS Camaro (I owned one) and the late model supercharged Mustang (I'm blanking on the year), you might  think, as I did, that the Camaro felt faster than the Mustang when the reality was that the Mustang was significantly quicker (about 0.4 sec on the quarter mile).  The reason is that the torque curve on the Mustang was flat (i.e. constant) which translates to a constant rate of acceleration, while the Camaro developed torque as the RPM increased making the rate of acceleration increase as well.

To the driver the Camaro felt like a run away train that just kept getting faster while the Mustang put you back in the seat immediately but then felt about the same from there.

 

If your truck felt faster it could be that you lost some of your low end torque making the torque curve more like the Camaro than the Mustang in the example above.

[Gnarly4X]

RESURRECTION:

My first 1986 22RE automatic longbed....

I had a speed shop install a Doug Thorely Tri-Y header.

The speed shop installed new pipe - 2.5" and a free-flow muffler.

The drop in torque was very very noticeable, especially from off-idle through 3500 RPMs.

I had to have new 2" pipe and a different more "restrictive" quieter muffler installed.

Apparently the 22RE and Mamma ECU is sensitive to some backpressure and exhaust velocity and too big of pipe = serious reduction in power.

This may be debated and argued, however, it has been pretty much determined to be true for a factory stock 22RE.

Gnarls.

[2manytoys]

I have or had several 22RE's that I put a header on. The 86 4Runner had auto trans. The 86 Xtra Cab, 87, 88, 91 and 93 were all manual trans.

In my personal experience, it wasn't the header. It was the diameter of the rest of the exhaust tube. I had good performance with 2 1/4" tube and just generic "Turbo" mufflers from Summit. Anything larger absolutely killed the low end torque. Especially with the auto trans. 2" tube with the auto trans would have probably been better. Never tried it. I always had CAT's in place to pass emissions. Universal ones from Summit whenever I replaced failing stock ones.

Sticking to stock tire size was also important. When I went to 31's it was also gutless until I swapped gears to 4.56's.

All my engines were stock except the 88 after rebuild. It had larger valves, porting, more compression and a cam for more mid range. Ran a 2 1/2" exhaust, universal CAT and turbo muffler because I don't like loud in my old age. My best running 22RE.