Topic: Mormons.....

[notajeep]

And FINALLY, here is the link where you can better see the charts and other stuff.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=f84f8949f2f6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

[red]

holy shiblets i aint readin all that!

[notajeep]

The sat\sun thing is in the first part.  You don't have to read that much if you don't want to .  But I wanted everything to be in context.

[blackdiamond]

I personally don't think I have an answer that will satisfy you about this. And as I stated I don't know the official position one way or another.  My personal feeling is that it doesn't really matter.  Now I know that you being a SDA, the day of the sabbath thing, is your thing.  So I have no problems with you pussing that issue. I have no doubt whatsoever that you can back it all up in the bible.  For all I know, you are 100% right that it is sat and not sun.  I am just not sure that it matters.

But anyway, I'll see what I can find out about our official stance on the sabbath for you.  (and me too I guess)

I'll try to read the stuff you posted, but it might take a while...

Why would you say that it doesn't matter if your beliefs are truth?

[blackdiamond]

"The importance of the Savior’s resurrection occurring on Sunday was emphasized when the sanctified Sabbath day was changed from Saturday, the seventh day, symbolic of the day of rest from the labor of the Creation (Ex. 20:11), to Sunday, the Lord’s Day (Acts 20:7; D&C 59:12), the glorious day of the Savior’s resurrection."

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. - Acts 20:7

But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.  And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full. - Doctrine and Covenants 59:12-13

The answer to my original question about the Sabbath vs. Sunday would have been simply quoting D&C 59:12-13.

If you look at the verse in Acts in the context of the Jewish Sabbath, as it must be read, you'll note that the disciples gathered on the first day of the week and Paul preached until midnight.  This actually indicates that they gathered on the evening of the 7th day and Paul preached until Midnight.  The 1st day begins at sundown on the 7th day.  The only midnight on the first day is Saturday night.  Nothing about this verse provides Biblical support for the change to Sunday, but everyone uses it for that very purpose.

[COToy91 [OP]]

Why is the week for most countries, minus here in the US, start on a Monday. Which would  make sunday the seventh day

[blackdiamond]

Why is the week for most countries, minus here in the US, start on a Monday. Which would  make sunday the seventh day

It is fairly simple to show that the weekly cycle hasn't changed no matter what the calender says in some countries.  There was a time where the date changed, but the weekely cycle was unchanged.

The shift went like this: Thursday October 4, 1582 followed by Friday October 15, 1582.  This correction was the result of the Julian calender not being accurate so it was changed to the Gregorian.

Also, the present day Jews still worship on Saturday, the 7th day, and they have a history that goes all the way back to Christ.  Sunday is thus named because it originated from pagan sun worship that was slowly incorporated in to Christianity about 300 years after Christ lived on earth. 

Ingoring the issue of the belief being right or wrong, the Catholic church claims responsibility for the change.  "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." - The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (Reverand Peter Geiermann, C.S.R. of January 25, 1910.

Out of curiosity, when did the Morman church officially begin?  It was after A.D. 336, correct?

[blackdiamond]

I removed my first statment from the previous post and it sounded more judgemental than I intended.

In my opinion, the Catholic religion has a "good" answer for Sunday worship because they claim to have changed it and their authority is above the Bible.  The Mormon church appears to rely on D&C 59:12 to change the authority.  Other mainstream Christian's claim that the reason they worship on Sunday has nothing to do with the Catholics, but can't provide a compelling argument from the Bible.  Even the Catholics will tell you that the Biblical Sabbath is Saturday, they just don't observe it.

Own your belief, if you can't then search for one that you can.  As a mormon, I would expect you to quote what is stated in D&C and then explain your belief in its authority.

How would you have answered my questions if you were to knock on my door during your time as a missionary?   

[COToy91 [OP]]

It is fairly simple to show that the weekly cycle hasn't changed no matter what the calender says in some countries.  There was a time where the date changed, but the weekely cycle was unchanged.

The shift went like this: Thursday October 4, 1582 followed by Friday October 15, 1582.  This correction was the result of the Julian calender not being accurate so it was changed to the Gregorian.

Also, the present day Jews still worship on Saturday, the 7th day, and they have a history that goes all the way back to Christ.  Sunday is thus named because it originated from pagan sun worship that was slowly incorporated in to Christianity about 300 years after Christ lived on earth. 

Ingoring the issue of the belief being right or wrong, the Catholic church claims responsibility for the change.  "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." - The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (Reverand Peter Geiermann, C.S.R. of January 25, 1910.

Out of curiosity, when did the Morman church officially begin?  It was after A.D. 336, correct?

Interesting, the church officially began in 1836

I found this interesting...


English    Portuguese      Russian    Meaning of Russian name
Monday    segunda-feira    ponedelnik         After "do-nothing"
Tuesday    terça-feira      vtornik          Second
Wednesday quarta-feira    sreda            Middle
Thursday    quinta-feira    chetverg           Fourth
Friday    sexta-feira     pyatnitsa             Fifth
Saturday    sabado            subbota             Sabbath
Sunday    domingo           voskresenye    Resurrection



      For the Jews, the Sabbath (Saturday) is the day of rest and worship. On this day God rested after creating the world.

      Most Christians have made Sunday their day of rest and worship, because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.

      Muslims use Friday as their day of rest and worship. The Qur'an calls Friday a holy day, the "king of days."

MONDAY - from the Romans, meaning "moon's day."

TUESDAY - from the German meaning "Tyr's Day" - Tyr is a defender god in Viking mythology and the Germanic god of war and the sky.

WEDNESDAY- From Viking meaning "Woden's Day or Odin's Day ."

THURSDAY- From Viking meaning "Thor's Day."

FRIDAY- From "Frey's Day. " Frey was a male god who gave his sword to a mortal (Skirnir) who lost the sword - so Frey could not battle in Ragnarok (that was the final battle or twilight of the gods). Another possibility is that it comes from Frigg's day - she was the wife of Odin, the Queen of the heavens and the goddess of love and the household.

SATURDAY- From Roman meaning "Saturn's Day." He is the father of Jupiter, Neptune, Pluto, Ceres and Juno.

SUNDAY-From the Romans - meaning "Sun's Day."

[COToy91 [OP]]

How would you have answered my questions if you were to knock on my door during your time as a missionary?  

If you had asked that question I probably would not have known the exact answer to it. I would probably say something about the authority being restored onto earth through the priesthood and that we worship on Sunday. Or like in the above post, i would say it is the praise of his resurrection....

Then you would still look confused and i would have to get back to you on that question lol. I dont know all things, but i know enough as it says in the BOM. I know enough for me at this point. But this is indeed an interesting point

[blackdiamond]

English    Portuguese      Russian    Meaning of Russian name
Saturday    sabado            subbota             Sabbath

      For the Jews, the Sabbath (Saturday) is the day of rest and worship. On this day God rested after creating the world.

      Most Christians have made Sunday their day of rest and worship, because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.

      Muslims use Friday as their day of rest and worship. The Qur'an calls Friday a holy day, the "king of days."

The two languages, other than English, call Saturday a form of the word Sabbath, is that what you found interesting?

Muslims are not really part of this discussion because they don't claim any connection with Christianity or the Bible.

[COToy91 [OP]]

The two languages, other than English, call Saturday a form of the word Sabbath, is that what you found interesting?

Muslims are not really part of this discussion because they don't claim any connection with Christianity or the Bible.

Yeah i found that interesting, also the... Most Christians have made Sunday their day of rest and worship, because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.

This is the reason i really enjoy political and religious discussions

[blackdiamond]

... Most Christians have made Sunday their day of rest and worship, because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.

This is because all of the mainstream Christian denominations have roots in the Roman Catholic Church.  During the reformation various groups branched off and ended up forming many of today's religions.

[Rocksurfer]

Shopping on Sundays? Is it true Mormons are not allowed to shop on Sundays? And if so, why? Are there other things not allowed on Sundays?

Some won't even drive on Sunday.

Some won't prepare a big meal either, when I lived in Riverside the family next door to me would cook everything on Sat. and then just heat it up. They were also into offroading and such and would go camping late Fri. and be back for Sun. service.

[BLACKDOG]

Some won't even drive on Sunday.

Some won't prepare a big meal either, when I lived in Riverside the family next door to me would cook everything on Sat. and then just heat it up. They were also into offroading and such and would go camping late Fri. and be back for Sun. service.

a friend of mine in high school was the same way.  His mom would prepare a meal for sunday that they could eat cold, and they were only allowed to do quiet and or family activities (ie board games, reading books, etc.) no video games, no tv.  They would only go somewhere if they HAD to other than church, and when it was nice (vacaville, CA so most of the time) they would walk to church rather than drive, as they lived in the neighborhood.

[chim]

Um okay, well i doubt i am running off. I have been on this site for a while. The intention of this thread is not to pull the you are wrong or right arguments out. I started this to set things straight on what I and other Mormons believe.

On another note though, where in the scriptures does it say that, I would love to read up on it.

If you are here to bash though, it is not appreciated and from the looks of your sig you already have a bias. I will gladly talk to you and have no issues. No bashing though, just like it says in the first post

I have been gone for a few days so I have some catching up to do...

Look at Hebrews Chapter 7 - Its confirms Christ as the only high priest after the order of Melchezidek... specially verse 24: it says he has an unchangeable priesthood.. look up the word unchangeable in the greek.. it actually means untransferable, and inviolate.. meaning no one else can have it.. if you want me to explain this more let me know..

[chim]

You believe He spoke to the prophets of old.  We believe He still does...

And not JUST to PROPHETS.

My point is this.  Any and every man can have his own direction and guidance from our Heavenly Father.  Beginning with the General Epistle of James chapter 1 verse 5 it says:
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

God does not speak through prophets as he used to in the old testament.. although some have a gift of prophecy...
Matthew 11:13 - For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
We no longer need a prophet to speak to God for us, we can have direct communication with him...
Hebrews 1:2 - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I can expound on this if you would like...

[chim]

more reference to all of chim's arguements...

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=14968.0
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=47553.msg597206;highlight=mormon#msg597206
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=27355.msg386995;highlight=mormon#msg386995
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=23464.0;highlight=mormons

If you are going to be here to put down what i believe and input why you think the LDS church is crap please take it else where to another thread. Start a why mormons should not believe what they do thread.

Thank you,
Ryan K.

Im not putting down what you believe.. Im defending the Christian faith when a religion such as mormonism claims to be christian and confuses everyone. Its my scriptural charge to do this.

[chim]

He is free to post what he wants, free country

I just ask that this doesn't go south....

Other than that fair game. I actually read through most of all those threads, I love to hear others opinions and I am truly fascinated by all beliefs in this world. I have my own beliefs obviously and they work for me. And as it said at the end of the South Park episode about Mormons:

"Maybe us Mormons do believe in stories that make no sense and maybe Joesph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life and a great family and I have the book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is I don't care if Joseph smith made it all up because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping, and all i wanted to be was your friend..."

Your last statement is crazy.. so you want to risk your eternal salvation for things of this earth? Wow...

[chim]

I worked for a devout Mormon for 3 years when I lived in Oregon. He was a great guy, treated his employees well, in fact treated me like family. He gave me a lot of respect for Mormons in general.

I agree that many, many mormons are great people! I love them.. if I didnt I wouldnt care if they went to hell...

[chim]

You are right, but remember that even the lowest kingdom is still a state of glory and happiness far greater than we can think of.  Still heaven.

Thats is multiple levels of heaven was biblical.. which it is not... let me know if you want me to expound on this...

[chim]

Basically a living person is baptized for those that have died giving that person the opportunity to accept the gospel. That's why genealogy is an important process to be completed so that you can have given your entire family history the opportunity to be baptized. My brother a Melchizedek Priest (Elder) has traced our family to its roots and baptized every last one. He is also responsible for the Elders on their missions in San Fernando, Ca so he does a lot of work.

Baptism for the dead is just plain nutty...  there is no scripture reference for this, and the one that mormons think works, is totally taken out of context... want me to expound on this too... sheesh!!!!!!!

[chim]

Can you show me from the Bible where the Sabbath was changed from the 7th day of the week to the 1st?  Christ observed the Sabbath of Creation, that was also specified in the Ten Commandments.  This Sabbath day is from sundown to sundown on the 7th day of the week.

I know why mainstream Christianity observes the Lord's Day on Sunday and I know a lot of the history on the change, but they generally argue that the Ten Commandments are no longer binding.

Is this belief from the Book of Mormon or the Bible?

Black Diamond..  we need to stick to false teachings of the mormon church right now.. not the ones of the SDA denomination

[Toymin8r]

 

[chim]

I removed my first statment from the previous post and it sounded more judgemental than I intended.

In my opinion, the Catholic religion has a "good" answer for Sunday worship because they claim to have changed it and their authority is above the Bible.  The Mormon church appears to rely on D&C 59:12 to change the authority.  Other mainstream Christian's claim that the reason they worship on Sunday has nothing to do with the Catholics, but can't provide a compelling argument from the Bible.  Even the Catholics will tell you that the Biblical Sabbath is Saturday, they just don't observe it.

Own your belief, if you can't then search for one that you can.  As a mormon, I would expect you to quote what is stated in D&C and then explain your belief in its authority.

How would you have answered my questions if you were to knock on my door during your time as a missionary?  

I just went back and read this..  I cant believe I missed this statement.. "...but can't provide a compelling argument from the Bible".
You have to be kidding me... someone do a search.. we have already talked about this.. sheesh... Just because you dont like it doesnt mean the evidence isnt there... wow.

[wampum]

Your last statement is crazy.. so you want to risk your eternal salvation for things of this earth? Wow...

How does loving your family, being nice, and helping risk your eternal salvation?

[chim]

How does loving your family, being nice, and helping risk your eternal salvation?

Because there is nothing you can do to "earn" your way to heaven... and realistically you may do a few things right, but you are still a sinner.. do you lie? Do you ever cheat? Steal? How about this... lust or covet! But dont think that I am perfect, because I do all those things... the difference is, that Im not trying to earn my way to heaven because I love my family, am nice most of the time.. Jesus says he is the way.. no one gets to Heaven but by him...

[COToy91 [OP]]

Your last statement is crazy.. so you want to risk your eternal salvation for things of this earth? Wow...

You realize that is a quote from south park.....
take a chill pill

[COToy91 [OP]]

Because there is nothing you can do to "earn" your way to heaven... and realistically you may do a few things right, but you are still a sinner.. do you lie? Do you ever cheat? Steal? How about this... lust or covet! But dont think that I am perfect, because I do all those things... the difference is, that Im not trying to earn my way to heaven because I love my family, am nice most of the time.. Jesus says he is the way.. no one gets to Heaven but by him...

James 2:26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[chim]

You realize that is a quote from south park.....
take a chill pill

No chill pill needed.. Im not fired up.. But I respond in that way, because many people actually think that way.