People w/ GEAR BOX knowledge Come'on in!

[TopStreet]

Hey Guys,

Heres the deal. My new offroad truck is setup with hydro assist.... But, the hydro assist is full hydro.

Basically, I have no mechanical linkage, but there is the tapped toyota gearbox and a 2"x8" ram welded onto my rocks. The problem is: The only time that I get pressure to the ram is when there is mechanical resistance on the gears in the box. With no mechanical linkage, it has to bottom out the big piston/plunger thing in the box. Sooo.... It took roughly 3 turns to get it to steer one way, and another full 3 turns to get the thing to start steering the other way.

To try and lessen the anti-drivability, I welded frame bottoming stops onto my ifs pitman arm. With this mod, it only requires about 1/3 turn (off center) to get pressure, and the same to get pressure to steer the other way. I hope I am explaining well enough.

NOW TO THE QUESTION... I wasnt looking for it when I had the gearbox apart, but I didnt see any kind of "pressure activation adjustment". Is there one?

I am trying to get it so that the steering wheel needs basically no mechanical resistance in order to start the fluid flow. This would make the higher speed trail rides much less "white knuckle".

If I wasnt clear enough with my question... Please let me know what I could try and be more clear about.

Thanks in advance!!! 

Jake

[Duffil]

If you really want to keep it like that, try tightening the adjustment screw on the box all the way down. i hope you don't drive this thing on the street.  If you want to avoid killing yourself, go buy an orbital valve and ditch the box.

do you have a pic of the Fontucky madness you describe?

[Bazzi]

dute .... your´e scaring me...

[TopStreet]

THIS IS NOT A STREET TRUCK!!!

Are you talking about the flat head screw on top of the 4bolt cover, w/ the lock nut?

I didnt know this was a adjustment. Does this block/open a fluid passage or something?...

The "orbital" valve (not really an orbital but a char lynn instead) is another option. But this was working with only one bug. And trust me, the frame stopping pitman are is not really worthy of pictures. I didnt know if it was going to work at all, so I simply tig welded some old (but new) trailer shackles to it so they would hit the frame.

I appreciate the concern guys, but I figured I would rather try it and possibly be wrong... FOR the possibility I could learn something to share.

[TopStreet]

BTW Bazzi I LOVE that truck of yours!!!

[Bazzi]

that screw is the only screw that you can fidle with, and I don´t think it does much for you preasure wice. alltho it has been suggested to me before. all that screw might do is help stopping the box from leaking if the seal has worn it´s way into the shaft....

gotta go brb

[Sluice Box Hero]

you have got to be freakin' kidding me.

[Bazzi]

thanks for the compliment about the truck...

ok... tell me this.
how does the truck turn when it bottoms out. doesn´t it yerk  (shoot out) or can you make small turns with small steering movement.

To try and lessen the anti-drivability, I welded frame bottoming stops onto my ifs pitman arm. With this mod, it only requires about 1/3 turn (off center) to get pressure, and the same to get pressure to steer the other way.

Basicly I belive you can make this work.
the pump is restricted and you can remove those restrictions to get more fluid to the steering box. I don´t know what you have done so far,  but take notice that there are also restrictions in the box, those are lockated where fluit enters the box..... when you do this you have to find the golden sweet spot, to much fluit is also scary....
Welding some junk to the pitman arm making it hit the frame is a good idea, gets you pretty close. althought you would have to make it so that the arm can move 1-2 cm to each direction before it hits the frame so you can try and drive straight.
I am curius about how the truck moves the wheels like this, if you haven´t opened up the pump to much, the wheels might not move that fast, but I belive if you have enaugh fluit in there it will shoot out.

If I would be crazy enaugh to try this, I would take the pump apart, inside that pump there is an gear or what to call it, that gear moves to each side when you turn the wheal. I would put some sort of springs on each side of that gear so it can only move a litle inside,  the springs would make the pump  a litle stiffer the more you move the wheal so it would put a litle and litle more fluit to the ram.  I belive more resistance = more fluit to the ram...

these are my  and this is how I would test this... but remember I am an electrician so if I am wrong 
and also it´s because of the will to  experiement with things that got us to where we are today with out it  we would still be living in caves.

[Ramrod]

do you know that you can by a standard orbital valve for next to nothing and have somewhat safe full hydraulic steerng

[Sluice Box Hero]

this is dumb.

[Bazzi]

do you know that you can by a standard orbital valve for next to nothing and have somewhat safe full hydraulic steerng

suuurre be that guy.... go the easy way.  what´s the fun in that. ...

why just not connect the pitman arm to the draglink and so on... 

[Ramrod]

cuz this is just stupidity and okie

[79coyotefrg]

Hey Guys,

Heres the deal. My new offroad truck is setup with hydro assist.... But, the hydro assist is full hydro.

Basically, I have no mechanical linkage, but there is the tapped toyota gearbox and a 2"x8" ram welded onto my rocks. The problem is: The only time that I get pressure to the ram is when there is mechanical resistance on the gears in the box. With no mechanical linkage, it has to bottom out the big piston/plunger thing in the box. Sooo.... It took roughly 3 turns to get it to steer one way, and another full 3 turns to get the thing to start steering the other way.

  wouldnt it be quicker killing yourself to just jump in front of a moma grizzly and grab one of her cubs

[Duffil]

THIS IS NOT A STREET TRUCK!!!

Are you talking about the flat head screw on top of the 4bolt cover, w/ the lock nut?

I didnt know this was a adjustment. Does this block/open a fluid passage or something?...

The "orbital" valve (not really an orbital but a char lynn instead) is another option. But this was working with only one bug. And trust me, the frame stopping pitman are is not really worthy of pictures. I didnt know if it was going to work at all, so I simply tig welded some old (but new) trailer shackles to it so they would hit the frame.

I appreciate the concern guys, but I figured I would rather try it and possibly be wrong... FOR the possibility I could learn something to share.

don't matter if it's not a street truck. you are looking to go fast with some ghetto-ass steering. you might as well disconnect all the brakes, and ditch the master cylinder to save weight.

[Bazzi]

don't matter if it's not a street truck. you are looking to go fast with some ghetto-ass steering. you might as well disconnect all the brakes, and ditch the master cylinder to save weight.

hi hi hi funny

be kind.

[Bazzi]

tell me one thing...  you guys have a lot different 4x4 culture. you have a lot more rock crawling and so on... you use trailers to move your trucks on the highway. we only use trailers under our trucks if something catastroffic has happened.

tell me this.  typpical trail.  how much on road, or dirt trail or something like that (speed over 20) do you have from the trailer.... 
I was thinking that a full hydro mix would be o.k. for someone that drives his truck from the trailer 20-30 yards and only swithces from the low drive to the dual case.....
I have never been to u.s.a, tell me what I am missing.

[79coyotefrg]

tell me one thing...  you guys have a lot different 4x4 culture. you have a lot more rock crawling and so on... you use trailers to move your trucks on the highway. we only use trailers under our trucks if something catastroffic has happened.

tell me this.  typpical trail.  how much on road, or dirt trail or something like that (speed over 20) do you have from the trailer.... 
I was thinking that a full hydro mix would be o.k. for someone that drives his truck from the trailer 20-30 yards and only swithces from the low drive to the dual case.....
I have never been to u.s.a, tell me what I am missing.

Bazzi, from my house its 40 miles to the "rock crawlin" so my truck drives on the hwy, i dont trailer it, i pull a trailer with it sometimes, i drive on the interstate (controlled access 4 lane) at 75 to 80 miles per hour,  or the local hwys at 45-60 mph

i have friends that trailer their trucks to the trails but i think its mostly to save wearing the expensive mud tires out on the hwy

Marlin trailers his truck now but its street legal except the bead lock rims (cant drive on the hwy with beadlocks)

[79coyotefrg]

full hydro  wouldnt be legal on the hwy here but done right (orbital valve and other MUST HAVE components) it would be fine at speeds up to 40 -50 mph

[Bazzi]

hmm I want to start a new topic for this.. comparising of trails Iceland/u.s.a

[TopStreet]

WOW!!! This has kinda blown up since I was last on. If anyone wants to come in here and simply say how stupid it is.... GET BENT! There is no reason for that crap. It is anti-helpful. Meaning it is less then helpful, it is ignorant and just gets in the way of a tech discussion. If you have a ligitimate consern... Make it. If its simply some ignorant crap stating that an "orbital" valve is the only way to go... GET OUT!!! Just by calling it an orbital valve prooves the stupidity. Additionally, mis-quoting posts to make it look like Im an idiot is BS too. Find some other thread on the web to waste your life on.

Bazzi... You can make small or large movements with the steering the way it is. The only problem I really have... Is that it takes a small amount of pressure on the wheel to get the tires to turn. Then it stays at that angle (for the most part). A good set of ruts will over power the ram and straighten the wheel. If this would straighten more easily (like with positive caster) and the wheel would direct fluid as soon as the wheel moved... And not just with force on it, it would work identically to a "open-center" char lynn steering valve.

[Duffil]

you do not have the required intelligence to post here. Go ask on Pirate.

[Bazzi]

you do not have the required intelligence to post here. Go ask on Pirate.

hey... what 

[Hyena]

seriously, you are suppose to use the right kind of steering with the steering box.  A steering box isn't suppose to power just a ram, it is for mechanical steering.  a ram just helps the steerings.  if you want full hydro then get an orbital and do it the right way.    i don't want to be on the same road as this thing.

[TopStreet]

Hyena... I would have expected a little more thurough of an answer from you man. How many times have I stated that I am not driving this at all on the road. Secondly... In stock form, ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO POWER A RAM EITHER!

A Direct quote fro Bill Vista's Hydraulic Steering Tech Artical:
"The component in the top right of the picture is the hydraulic steering directional control valve / metering section; and is the heart of the system. Note, many many people erroneously refer to this as an "orbital valve". This is incorrect. The hydraulic industry does not refer to them as "orbital valves". Orbital is a nomenclature (name) reserved for referring to a specific type of hydraulic motor, that has nothing to do with hydro steering. Not one of the the 3 major US manufacturers refers to their steering valves as "orbital valves". However, Eaton/Car-Lynn does market a hydrostatic steering unit that has the trade name Orbitrol™ and this may be where the error originates. From Eaton's website - "ORBITROL™ is a hydrostatic(fully fluid linked)power steering composed of a feedback metering organization with a directional control valve and servo feedback operated with a very small power." There are also valve's in existence that are known in industry/engineering as "orbital valves" but they are not what we are interested in.

So, you can really call it whatever you want I suppose, and many many big names in the 4x4 world call it an "orbital valve" but be advised that none of the "big 3" manufacturers do. Parker/Ross calls it a hydrostatic steering unit, as does Sauer-Danfoss, and Eaton/Char-Lynn calls it a "steering control unit (SCU)"; so if you need to discuss them with, say, a hydraulics engineer, it may be advantageous to use the name by which they are properly known. For the remainder of the article I shall refer to it as simply the "steering unit". There is a good reason for all this pedantic semantics - you see, the steering unit is more than just a valve, it is a valve and a metering unit - more on this later."

[playerh8er]

you tell em TopStreet

[Bazzi]

I haven´t studdied those valves, but as I see it using the steering box like this, is just as good as using some shitty home made steering arms, or mixing a pivot blocks out of water pipes to get a better flex for the rear??

If he´s running those at low speeds and only offroad, if something goes wrong he´s probably only gonna hurt him self and his passangers, he knows the risk, why can´t you all just give him some positive feedback to help him make this safer.

[Duffil]

the issue here isn't that we are calling it by the wrong name. The issue is that what you are trying to do is totally unsafe, poorly designed and not thought through very well. If you don't want info on how to CORRECTLY set up a full hydro steering system, then delete this thread.

[Sluice Box Hero]

this is still dumb.  sure you can do it, but its stupid and you are trying to do something that wont work.  we all know how hydro assist works, and we know how full hydro works.  do it the right way, and stop being a fucktard.

this thread should be deleted before you encourage some other dipshit to do this.

[kiyul4130]

i floppin' dare you to post this on pirate. this is great. your turing your steering box into a valve. that steering would suck even for a full time wheeler, non streetable.

[Bazzi]

i floppin' dare you to post this on pirate. this is great. your turing your steering box into a valve. that steering would suck even for a full time wheeler, non streetable.

I just can´t stopping to admire him for doing this...  I like it.