People w/ GEAR BOX knowledge Come'on in!

[kiyul4130]

I just can´t stopping to admire him for doing this...  I like it. 

why? do you know how shitty it would be to steer something setup like that. leftttttttttttttt left left left. oh thats to much left, right right right.

[Ramrod]

why not just put a tractor joystick lever valve hooked up to your ram and then you wont even need a steering wheel, your interior will be super clean yo

[Bazzi]

why? do you know how shitty it would be to steer something setup like that. leftttttttttttttt left left left. oh thats to much left, right right right.

yeah... exactly...  he definitly has to work  it  and it never senters on it´s own. but hey it´s a cheap ass hillbilly setup  and he´s deffinitly thinking outside the box. so 

[Sluice Box Hero]

page 2. . . . and its still dumb

[Hyena]

Hyena... I would have expected a little more thurough of an answer from you man. How many times have I stated that I am not driving this at all on the road. Secondly... In stock form, ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO POWER A RAM EITHER!

A Direct quote fro Bill Vista's Hydraulic Steering Tech Artical:
"The component in the top right of the picture is the hydraulic steering directional control valve / metering section; and is the heart of the system. Note, many many people erroneously refer to this as an "orbital valve". This is incorrect. The hydraulic industry does not refer to them as "orbital valves". Orbital is a nomenclature (name) reserved for referring to a specific type of hydraulic motor, that has nothing to do with hydro steering. Not one of the the 3 major US manufacturers refers to their steering valves as "orbital valves". However, Eaton/Car-Lynn does market a hydrostatic steering unit that has the trade name Orbitrol™ and this may be where the error originates. From Eaton's website - "ORBITROL™ is a hydrostatic(fully fluid linked)power steering composed of a feedback metering organization with a directional control valve and servo feedback operated with a very small power." There are also valve's in existence that are known in industry/engineering as "orbital valves" but they are not what we are interested in.

So, you can really call it whatever you want I suppose, and many many big names in the 4x4 world call it an "orbital valve" but be advised that none of the "big 3" manufacturers do. Parker/Ross calls it a hydrostatic steering unit, as does Sauer-Danfoss, and Eaton/Char-Lynn calls it a "steering control unit (SCU)"; so if you need to discuss them with, say, a hydraulics engineer, it may be advantageous to use the name by which they are properly known. For the remainder of the article I shall refer to it as simply the "steering unit". There is a good reason for all this pedantic semantics - you see, the steering unit is more than just a valve, it is a valve and a metering unit - more on this later."

He says it can be called both.

[Reynolds]

OK I'm trying to decipher in my head how this poor execution of full hydro is working. You have a pump feeding to the steering box with lines coming out going to a 2x8" ram. The pitman arm is connected to the steering box and "stopped" with some shackles welded onto it but you don't have a drag link/tie rod. Why are you trying to do something different than the norm? It has already been proven that adding hydro assist to a high-steer setup works GREAT. Had you kept the drag link, you will take up that 2/3 of steering slack and have a good working setup.

Possibly another reason why it *might* be slow with your janky setup is you are using a 2x8" ram. Assuming you are running Toyota axles/pump/box, there is no way that tiny pump can push that big of a ram. I believe most guys are running a 1.5x6 or 7" ram for a complete Toyota setup and a 1.5x8" ram for a Dana axle with Toyota pump/box. Even then, without modifying the pump, some people have issues with the ram not acting as fast as the steering box so it can still be slow even if you are using the proper ram for your setup. This is in regards to people running hydro assist (mechanical steering w/ram).

What you need to do is decide what you want out of your setup. Basically what everyone is saying here is you are using a mechanical box as a replacement (!!!) for a hydrostatic valve but aren't using ANY mechanical steering which is pointless and redundant when you could be using the proper part. What is different between a steering box and a hydrostatic valve is the amount of pressure they put out. Obviously, with a steering box, you don't have as much power compared to full hydro. Have you ever steered a well built full hydro setup? Leaps and bounds better than stock power steering. You WON'T EVER get that from a steering box.

Do us all a favor and connect up your mechanical steering components, downsize your ram (I hope you know how to measure your steering throw so you know what length ram to run) or throw in a hydrostatic valve that is MEANT for pushing fluid and only fluid. Even if you were to toss in a full hydro valve, I can't comment on how well it will work with a stock Toyota pump so you might need to upgrade all around. Don't do this ghetto half-ass shite!! Think mechanical box with mechanical steering parts (and ram assist steering) or full hydro with "no mechanical steering." Cheers

[Hyena]

i think he is running rockwells. 

[Reynolds]

i think he is running rockwells. 

Maybe that explains the "no mechanical steering" or the "i'm too lazy to figure it out steering." In that case, "orbital valve" all the way for simplicity sake.

[porkchop]

i think he is running rockwells. 

and the 8" ram cause a 6" is about all a toyota front axle can take

[Doof]

take a picture and show the world

[TopStreet]

I asked for advise. I dont consider "it dont work" advise...

Yes I am running rockwells. This means the gear box would need to move about 6"-8" forward on the frame to allow the mechanical drag link to clear the pinion brake.

I dont consider this to be any less dangerous (working slightly better) then a full hydro. But because its not a rock crawler you guys have all the problem in the world.

I didnt post on pirate because most of those guys live more for the internet drama then they do for wheelin. I was "HOPING" it would be better here.

The bottom line is, this setup could get put together and work perfectly... Or it could fail... None of you are adding to any kind of technical discussion besides Bazzi. I would rather know and learn what it is capable of, instead of just going off of what someone else said "so its gotta be right".

So everyone is welcome to stick to their "the world is flat" mentality. It is just more fuel to figure it out and make it work properly. Thanks!

[TopStreet]

Lets Try This...

There is some resistance or pressure needed before the gear box will direct fluid flow. What controls this? Is there a ball and spring somewhere? Is this what the threaded bolt w/ a jam nut on the top of the box does?

The Pitman arm needs back pressure before the gear box will direct fluid in either direction... Does anyone know what component controls this? Because if this is a ball and spring... It is adjustable in one way or another. If it is a restrictor... It is adjustable. See where I am going with this?

[Sluice Box Hero]

we are dead serious that you should just bypass the steering box and use a tractor valve, becuase that is what you are creating only using the box is weaker.  youve made it so that the steering wheel will only turn about 1" in either direction, so the drivability is non exsistant.  ill tell you what, sell your tapped box and buy a used orbital valve.  that is the best tech in this thread.

how about this:  take a steering stabilizer and attach it to the pitman arm, it may creat enough drag on the pitman arm to make the box create pressure and move the ram.  its still going to suck and is a stupid solution for an easy problem.

Callen

[TopStreet]

how about this:  take a steering stabilizer and attach it to the pitman arm, it may creat enough drag on the pitman arm to make the box create pressure and move the ram.  its still going to suck and is a stupid solution for an easy problem.

Callen

This is what the frame stop is doing.

[Duffil]

This is what the frame stop is doing.

if the frame stop is doing it that well, we shouldn't have this thread. You are trying to make a dangerous and weak steering system, and the masses do not approve.  Honestly, what Callen said above and what was posted before is your best bet. Sell the box and buy the valve.

[Reynolds]

I asked for advise. I dont consider "it dont work" advise...

Yes I am running rockwells. This means the gear box would need to move about 6"-8" forward on the frame to allow the mechanical drag link to clear the pinion brake.

I dont consider this to be any less dangerous (working slightly better) then a full hydro. But because its not a rock crawler you guys have all the problem in the world.

I didnt post on pirate because most of those guys live more for the internet drama then they do for wheelin. I was "HOPING" it would be better here.

The bottom line is, this setup could get put together and work perfectly... Or it could fail... None of you are adding to any kind of technical discussion besides Bazzi. I would rather know and learn what it is capable of, instead of just going off of what someone else said "so its gotta be right".

So everyone is welcome to stick to their "the world is flat" mentality. It is just more fuel to figure it out and make it work properly. Thanks!

Can you PLEASE post pictures of this setup?

[TopStreet]

if the frame stop is doing it that well, we shouldn't have this thread. You are trying to make a dangerous and weak steering system, and the masses do not approve.  Honestly, what Callen said above and what was posted before is your best bet. Sell the box and buy the valve.

I didnt say it was working perfectly yet... I was thinking that people with more gear box knowledge than myself would be helpful.

I dont see this as anymore "dangerous and weak" then a full hydro steering setup. What... Your not worried about the hydraulics until the dont have the linkage attached??? That doesnt make sense to me.

Lastly... You seem to have me mistaken for someone who needs "the masses" to approve.

Either way. My backup plan this whole time has been to either run a steering valve or move the box and make some linkage. I simply wanted to try something new. I didnt know that was a crime in the offroad world. But hey, anything new (thats not already on pirate) must be crap and unsafe.

Not one person here has given an actual "reason" not to try this. Its just been a whole lot of crap with no solid explaination as to "why" it wont work... Just that "it dont work"!!! So, I will take back the credit I prematurely gave the most of you and go about my way.

Whatever

[Sluice Box Hero]

it will work, but you are turning your box into a valve rather than a steering gear, so why not either get a tractor valve and bypass the box due to the stresses it will see and more than likely fail in short order, or buy the right tool for the job, an orbital.

Callen

[kiyul4130]

a steering box isnt made for full hydro, PERIOD!!!!!! WHO have you seen do that. it has nothing to do with it being a crime to try something new and it being on pirate or not.  im sure your one of only few, if not the only one that has tried this. you tried it and it doesnt work worth a damn. eventually your box will fail unlike a valve. no one can give much input because its known your NOT suppose to do this. run a floppin' valve thats made for full hydro, thats what you do. you should post this on pirate. do it.

[KYOTA]

What... Your not worried about the hydraulics until the dont have the linkage attached??? That doesnt make sense to me.

uh if the "hydraulics" fail in HA you still have mechanical links to the steering.

maybe if we drew you a picture??

[Reynolds]

Yes PLEASE post this on Pirate just so everyone there will reiterate what we are telling you here.

[Doof]

personally i want to see this okie set up, up close so we can laugh even harder and make a motivational poster out of it

[kiyul4130]

ya. you know what, post this on pirate because there are way more people on there than this site. you could find the answer your looking for. its just the net, dont be scurrrrd.

[TopStreet]

You know... Not being willing to humor an idea is one thing. Being a bunch of assholes is another.

I dont see what pirate has to do with anything. All this is, is a bunch of guys who are unable to see past what someone else tells them with work.

BTW... I wheeled all last weekend with this setup WORKING! It could have been better but the assistance I was hoping for isnt here.

[Duffil]

You know... Not being willing to humor an idea is one thing. Being a bunch of assholes is another.

I dont see what pirate has to do with anything. All this is, is a bunch of guys who are unable to see past what someone else tells them with work.
we never said it wouldn't work, d-bag, just that it wasn't the right way, it wasn't safe, etc.
BTW... I wheeled all last weekend with this setup WORKING! It could have been better but the assistance I was hoping for isnt here. gee i wonder why

[Bazzi]

how many push pull boxes are lying around dooing nothing...hmm ... the guy´s are frantic cause steering is something that you aren´t supposed to mess with. like brakes.

[Sluice Box Hero]

messing with the steering is not a problem.  i run a modded KRC pump, with a charr lynn orbital, with a steering ram.  i do this because i dont want a flopp up steering system that doesnt work right and totally sketchy.  my system does not return to center and i have ZERO road feel, but i have no preoblem hitting the freeway and easily keeping it between the lines at 55+ and am able to turn 42" tires with 5psi in them locked without much resistance, this is because i DID IT RIGHT.

furthermore even if you figure out a way to make it easier to get the box to make pressure you are going to run into a HUGE problem with fluid transfer.  the vein in the box that provides you with high pressure left (or right, i cant remember) is only about 1/8" diameter, this does not allow enough flow for a large enough steering ram that is needed for the force required to have fully hydraulic steering.  if you look at a good HA ram its about 1.5" bore and 1" rod because it is only assisting the human power put into the box, where as a nice fully hydro ram you are looking at a 2.5 bore and 2" stroke in the same application.  you box will not flow enough fluid efficiently to operate a ram of that size.  hell its not even designed to flow enough fluid for the HA ram, we just make it work.

you are engineering something that has already been engineered.  its like making box tube out of two pieces of channel.  WHY? because you already have the box?  sell it, get $150 for it, and find a used orbital, my cousin bought his orbital on pirate for $150 shipped.

sure you can do this, but its still going to be hokey redneck when your done and in 6 months, either the box will have gone bad, or youll be over the shitty steering.

Callen

[Hyena]

nobody is going to help you out ever again.  calling us assholes was over the top fuckstick.

[TopStreet]

nobody is going to help you out ever again.  calling us :moon:s was over the top floppstick.

You would have had to have helped in the past to be able to say, "ever again".

Dude! Being an was over the top! I was looking for help and got crap! Go back to doing whats proven.

There is no way that I should feel bad for you, when you came into a project research thread and disrespected me. You didnt like it when everone bashed your on pirate, but its ok for you to do it to me??? Whatever flopstick!

[Hyena]

when did i ever get bashed on pirate? that is news to me.