swamp lake

[lucky7]

gonna do swamper next weekend probably camp at grouse any takers

[Joey88RUNR]

its possile...you think my rig will make it?

[freds40]

If you stack, please take the time to unstack. 

Don't mean to be a prick but Swamp is one of the better trails in the area and it always seems to get paved in the first month or month and a half of being open.

For some of us, it's not uncommon to take a couple of hours out of our wheeling to unstack sections of that trail.

[snowcat]

IF YOU UNSTACK, PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO STACK!

I am the one who stacks, I stack even if I don't need it. I spend hours stacking the places which people like you "unstack." I admire you, at least you aren't so fat and drunk that you are willing to get out of your rig for trail work. The problem is that when you unstack the trail, the lazy drivers who need stacking are tempted to drive off the trail to go around the hard areas instead of stacking and unstacking as you are asking them to do. When people go off the trail, the forestry and enviro wackos get upset and yell about high impact. Then they file a lawsuit which closes the trail pending court decision. At that point, the trail is never reopened. When that happens, you will still be able to UNSTACK your hard spots, but it's only going to benefit your horse, since you won't be driving on the trail anymore due to court mandated trail closure.

[madhunt]

if you have to stack rocks to go through the trail you should not be on that trail, find one more suitable for your rig.   



and you should go introduce youself in the newbie section before posting here.

[trickcomanche]

if you have to stack rocks to go through the trail you should not be on that trail, find one more suitable for your rig.  
and you should go introduce youself in the newbie section before posting here.

X2

[freds40]

IF YOU UNSTACK, PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO STACK!

I am the one who stacks, I stack even if I don't need it. I spend hours stacking the places which people like you "unstack." I admire you, at least you aren't so fat and drunk that you are willing to get out of your rig for trail work. The problem is that when you unstack the trail, the lazy drivers who need stacking are tempted to drive off the trail to go around the hard areas instead of stacking and unstacking as you are asking them to do. When people go off the trail, the forestry and enviro wackos get upset and yell about high impact. Then they file a lawsuit which closes the trail pending court decision. At that point, the trail is never reopened. When that happens, you will still be able to UNSTACK your hard spots, but it's only going to benefit your horse, since you won't be driving on the trail anymore due to court mandated trail closure.

Swamp is considered one of the more difficult trails in our area. If your truck can't make it through, there are many other options in our local area that you can wheel. Because your truck is not capable or you are not comfortable as a driver does not mean that the trail should be paved so you can say you have driven Swamp.

As far as bi-passes go, that has nothing to do with the trail. There will always be someone taking a vehicle on trails that should not be there. I have seen bi-passes on our most easy trails. I have seen bi-passes of bi-passes. Bottom line, there will always be lazy people out there that will try to make a bi-pass. Catering to them benefits no one. Catching them in the act and educating them of their error is the best defense.

[snowcat]

If you have to UNstack to make the trail suitable for your rig, you should not be on the trail. There are plenty of tougher trails in Utah and Nevada and in Panamint Valley that are more suitable for your rig if you are finding you have to UNstack Swamp Lake Trail. Just because your rig is over-upgraded with low gears and oversized tires doesn't give you the license to destroy the trail by UNstacking. Maybe you are new to 4x4ing, but it is rigs like yours that tear up the trail to begin with. I'm simply putting the rocks back where your tires spit them out from in the first place. If we all had good driving skills, we wouldn't need 35 inch and taller tires and we wouldn't be tearing up the trails, making stacking rocks necessary for rigs that have been driving these trails since the 1950s.

My rig doesn't need stacking.  I stack to counteract the damaging effects of people like you who UNstack because you are bored with the trail. I drive the trail to get to the lake so I can fish and camp. I don't drive the trail for an ego boost. As long as people like you are UNstacking, I'll be right behind you to stack it back up.

You can't educate an idiot. So that is a compliment to you since I am spending my time with you. People don't make bipasses for the fun of it. They make bipasses because they can't make it over the rough spots. You are right, you can't stop all the bipasses. BUT WHEN YOU UNstack the trail, it promotes MORE bipasses.

It's like on the Red/Coyote rockpile, they want to put up a fence along both sides of the trail to keep people from making bipasses. IF people like you would stop UNstacking the trail, people would discontinue use of the bipass. At least the people with stock rigs would stay on the trail. Although maybe people with rigs like yours would get bored and want to take the bipass because it is actually harder than the trail.

You want to catch people in the act of taking a bipass and educate them? How about me catching you in the act of UNstacking the trail and educating you. It is actually against the law to move rocks in the forest without Forest Service approval. Please stop UNstacking. It is against the rules of the trail, it is against the law of the Forest Service, and it is counter-productive to keeping our trails open. If you want to perform trail work legally, you need to 1st get the okay from the Forest Service. One way to do that is to join the 4Wheel Drive Club of Fresno and get on the Swamp Lake Trail Committee. Bartman is the Swamp Lake Trail Co-Chairman, I'm sure he would be happy to have your help, though I'm not sure that UNstacking is a part of his trail management plan, you'd have to ask him. Their meetings are the 2nd tuesday of each month at Lety's restaurant at Chestnut and Clinton at 7pm in Fresno.

[trickcomanche]

Try posting this up on Pirate4x4.com.  YOu may get the response you are looking for there. 

[madhunt]

do you have a permit to stack rocks?

[snowcat]

No, I don't have a permit. It is illegal, just like it is illegal to UNstack rocks. As long as people are UNstacking, I will stack. I don't pretend to think that I can change your actions. I'm just letting you know that your UNstacking ideals are off base and as hurtful to the trail's status of "open" as anyone else who is breaking the rules.

You believe UNstacking is right, I believe stacking is right. Maybe we should both just stop our evil ways and leave it to the professionals. OR become a professional by joining the Forest Service or a club that is sanctioned to do trail work by the Forest Service.

But I suspect we are like Batman and the Joker. You won't kill me because you don't believe in killing, and I won't kill you because our dance is too much fun! It's like what happens when an immovable object is hit by an unstoppable force.

[madhunt]

ok, but you still havent went to the newbie section to introduce yerself yet. if you want to play by the rules, thats what you need to do, hope you  dont drive a snowcat in the summer time(lol).

[BigMike]

Hey guys

This is a very interesting discussion. I would like to say I understand where each side of this discussion is coming from. But deep down I know that Swamp lake is considered by the Forest Service as a "Black Diamond" trail, which means it is designated as a tough trail.

snowcat,

Please be aware that freds40 is NOT suggesting to "UNstack without cause"

If you stack, please take the time to unstack.

He is suggesting for those who alter the trail for their needs, to please return to trail to it's preexisting condition.

You on the other hand, ARE suggesting "UNstacking without cause"

I stack even if I don't need it.

I would like to ask what is the desire you have to stack even when you do not need to stack? If you don't need to stack, then why alter the trail, why modify the trail when you do not need to? You sound no different to me than those who alter the trail by creating bypasses.

and you should go introduce youself in the newbie section before posting here.

Yes please, this is a friendly forum as you may come to find out if you wish, but it seems you have started out on perhaps the wrong foot today.

I have seen bi-passes on our most easy trails. I have seen bi-passes of bi-passes. Bottom line, there will always be lazy people out there that will try to make a bi-pass.

X2

.....There are plenty of tougher trails in Utah and Nevada and in Panamint Valley that are more suitable for your rig if you are finding you have to UNstack Swamp Lake Trail. Just because your rig is over-upgraded with low gears and oversized tires doesn't give you the license to destroy the trail by UNstacking. Maybe you are new to 4x4ing, but it is rigs like yours that tear up the trail to begin with. I'm simply putting the rocks back where your tires spit them out from in the first place...........I stack to counteract the damaging effects of people like you who UNstack because you are bored with the trail.

You are being extremely judgmental on your first day here to a member who has been here since 2002.

And equating "low gears" with the "damaging effects" is a contradictory statement: Lower gearing provides a means of access remote locations of this country with OUT the damaging effect of high revving, clutch dumping, tire spinning burnouts.

I drive the trail to get to the lake so I can fish and camp.

I enjoy Swamp lake because of the fact that few rigs are able to get in there in the first place. I enjoy seclusion just as much as you do, that is why I designed my rig and have developed my wheeling talent to access these remote places.

Remote locations 50 years ago cannot possibly remain remote with population growth and expansion. Please do not blame this on "over-upgraded rigs".

How about me catching you in the act of UNstacking the trail and educating you. It is actually against the law to move rocks in the forest without Forest Service approval. Please stop UNstacking. It is against the rules of the trail, it is against the law of the Forest Service, and it is counter-productive to keeping our trails open.

All freds40 is saying is that if you modify the trail then please put it back the way you found it. I think that is a fair and just statement. Remember before the trail even existed there were, in the majority of the trail, very few stacked rocks. People have been stacking rocks since the creation of the trail, and I agree with freds40 that if you modify the trail for yourself, then you should return the trail to it's preexisting condition before you got there.


BigMike

[BigMike]

I want to add that last weekend I camped at Swamp lake and it was amazing. There were only 5 rigs camped at the lake, and of the few times I can remember camping on a 4WD trail, not a sole was playing their death metal "i want to kill you" Metallica. If there were over 200 nut-jobs in there with their mom and dad's Chevy Blazer, then it would have been a different story.

Thank GOODNESS there exists difficult trails such as Swamp lake that is within an hours drive to my house.

Difficult trails in my opinion is the only way to keep wackos out and the peace and quiet nature I so love in.

Making the trail a freeway would enable access to over crowd the trail with a bunch of highschool spray-painting juveniles.

I go to Swamp lake because it is the path less driven.

BigMike

[lucky7]

don't worry the white knuckles from swamp will scare off the not worthy and stacking rocks only last so long so unless you run it don't worry about it thats mt opinion

[lucky7]

By the way anybody down i want to go stack rocks

[Joey88RUNR]

haha this is awesome! i agree with bigmike!....I dont eventhink my rig is capable yet.....to bad i have a blown head gasket

[lucky7]

It would make it duals make up for 33's coyote ain't know joke you didn't even get a scratch i bent my bumper

[Joey88RUNR]

It would make it duals make up for 33's coyote ain't know joke you didn't even get a scratch i bent my bumper

Yea your probably right

[lucky7]

Heading in the morning should be a good day :\

[Cheesemaker]

I want to add that last weekend I camped at Swamp lake and it was amazing. There were only 5 rigs camped at the lake, and of the few times I can remember camping on a 4WD trail, not a sole was playing their death metal "i want to kill you" Metallica. If there were over 200 nut-jobs in there with their mom and dad's Chevy Blazer, then it would have been a different story.

Thank GOODNESS there exists difficult trails such as Swamp lake that is within an hours drive to my house.

Difficult trails in my opinion is the only way to keep wackos out and the peace and quiet nature I so love in.

Making the trail a freeway would enable access to over crowd the trail with a bunch of highschool spray-painting juveniles.

I go to Swamp lake because it is the path less driven.

BigMike

X's 2!!  This is the reason, I want to build a capable rig, that can take me to where I want to go, and not tear it up trying to get there.  I love taking the road less traveled! 

[madhunt]

very well said mike.

[snowcat]

I apologize, Big Mike, for sounding hostile, I was drunk with Root Beer from John's Incredible Pizza and my blood sugar was through the roof when I wrote all that stuff!

I too have been a member since 2002 or 2003, can you find out for me? I was in the apartments on Belmont when I signed up and first posted. I can't believe my sign name was still in your system. I don't know how to introduce myself, could you esplain?

"For some of us, it's not uncommon to take a couple of hours out of our wheeling to unstack sections of that trail."--------Freds40

This is my main question.... If Freds40 is spending two hours UNstacking rocks on Swamp lake trail, how does he know that those rocks weren't put there for a purpose by the Forsest Service or by a club sanctioned by the Forest Service to do trail work.

Since it is illegal to move rocks on forestry land without permission, then I can agree with you that if you stack rocks, then put them back when you are done. BUT please know that if you see stacking on the trail, you are breaking the rules of the trail by UNstacking rocks that you did not stack. You don't know who stacked them, it could have been a trail official.

Also, I surely hope that you guys are not advocating winching rocks around in order to make the trail harder to keep people out. I have seen more of this lately, I'm sure it isn't any of you guys and especially not Freds40.

"Difficult trails in my opinion is the only way to keep wackos out and the peace and quiet nature I so love in. Making the trail a freeway would enable access to over crowd the trail with a bunch of highschool spray-painting juveniles." --- Big Mike


The environmentalist wackos strive to keep people out of the forest. Are you guys saying that you also want to keep as many people as you can out of the forest??? The enviro wackos want to keep everyone out except those who are willing to backpack. For them, when they hike in, it pisses them off to see 4x4 trucks in the middle of no where. Are you saying that it pisses you off to share the trail with people who are different than you? Is this age discrimination? You don't like highschool kids? What if they are rich and drive a super fixed up marlin crawler toyota?

My goal here is to keep the trails open to the public and open to 4x4 enthusiasts. The more 4x4 enthusiasts there are, the stronger ability we have to keep the trails open. Marlin Crawler has done more for 4wheeling than any other company or club out there simply because he invented a way to make it affordable to the masses. Now you can turn a stock toy pickup into an awesome crawler for under $3000. Before Marlin, you couldn't even make a toy pickup into a decent crawler and you  had to spend $10,000 or more on your jeep, ford, or landcruiser to get the same quality crawler (or less quality, it really is hard to match the crawling abilities of a Marlin modified toy).

"I enjoy Swamp lake because of the fact that few rigs are able to get in there in the first place. I enjoy seclusion just as much as you do, that is why I designed my rig and have developed my wheeling talent to access these remote places. Remote locations 50 years ago cannot possibly remain remote with population growth and expansion. Please do not blame this on "over-upgraded rigs"."----Big Mike

I never said I enjoyed the lake because of the seclusion or that I am upset that over-upgraded rigs are making swamp lake less secluded. In fact it's just the opposite, the more 4x4 rigs the better because then we can fight the enviro wackos easier. I am just wondering if it is the people who drive over-upgraded rigs who are getting bored with the trail and wanting to make it harder and harder by UNstacking rocks to keep people out. To explain my point (I am not advocating it) I will say that if you drive a lifted toy pickup with 31 inch tires, only one locker, and only a 4.7 case upgrade, the trail will be a lot more challenging for you without having to feel the need to UNstack rocks. We DO need to share the trails, yes, even with people who you don't like or who drive less-modified rigs. It is unethical to make a trail that used to be easier and now over time and erosion has become more difficult, to make it EVEN MORE DIFFICULT by UNstacking rocks just so ONLY certain types of extremely modified rigs can make it in. (I have an extremely modified rig by the way, and I love it, and yes I get bored sometimes, but it doesn't make me want to ruin the trail for everyone else.)


You are right, I misspoke, lower gears can have a much lower impact on the trails than someone who dumps the clutch. The only danger with super low gears is boredom which could lead to going off the trail in search of more challenging terrain (which I've seen more of in recent years.)

My point is that we need to stop being exclusive and start finding common ground and work together. UNstacking rocks which you did not stack in the first place is being exclusive.


When I stack rocks, yes, I am destroying the forest, but I will say it again.... my purpose is to keep the trail open because it keeps people off the bipasses which the Forest Service are upset about.  If one of the bypasses is easier, then the majority of people will go that way. IF we strategically stack rocks we can herd the masses the way we want them to go in the name of diminishing bypasses and thus giving the enviro wackos less ammunition.

It sounds like your purpose for UNstacking rocks which you yourself did not stack is to make the trail harder to "keep people out." Again, this makes you no different than the enviro wackos.

"All freds40 is saying is that if you modify the trail then please put it back the way you found it. I think that is a fair and just statement. Remember before the trail even existed there were, in the majority of the trail, very few stacked rocks. People have been stacking rocks since the creation of the trail, and I agree with freds40 that if you modify the trail for yourself, then you should return the trail to it's preexisting condition before you got there." --- Big Mike

If you really want to learn something about 4x4ing, trails, politics, and keeping the trail open, you might want to read this part twice.... in the 1950's they didn't need to stack as many rocks because ALL THE ROCKS WERE STILL IN THE TRAIL. The rocks you see people stacking used to NATURALLY be in the trail surrounded by dirt. After years of traffic, little by little rigs would kick out the smaller rocks and dirt, leaving holes, and making the trail more difficult over the years. (This is when bypasses began to be a problem.) The trail creaters and care takers begain "stacking" rocks because they were trying to keep the trail in it's original condition. They were trying to keep the forest as natural as possible considering they were driving 4x4s through it. Just because the old timers have retired and the new trail crews are lazy and don't return the trail to as close to original condition as possible by putting all the rocks that were kicked out BACK into the trail each year, and then you are born and buy a 4x4 and the first time you see the trail it has lots of holes in it, you think big holes and big exposed rocks are natural.

So as you can see, from my perspective, stacking rocks is actually an attempt to put the trail back to natural, back to the way it was.

So let's call a truce, I will stop stacking rocks (even though it is an attempt to restore the trail, curtail bypasses, and keep the trails open) if you aggree to stop UNstacking rocks which you did not personally stack.

In the meantime, we need to talk Big Mike, I have some great ideas for fundraising to help pay to fight the legal battles over keeping our trails open....In fact this idea could raise so much money that we could get NEW trails open like maybe one from Coyote Lake to the Dusy trail or from Brewer to Red Lake or re-open the Graveyard Medows trail, and definitely re-open Surprise Canyon.... it might take an act of congress, but hey, with money, anything is possible, especially if it benefits society.

The Sierra Club has 1 million members around the country. They are our main nemisis. Their dues are about 25 per year, so that's $25million a year they have access to plus lots of wackos in SF who never set foot in the forest send millions of extra dollars yearly to them. I bet there are way more camping and off-road enthusiasts than 1 million....and what if they didn't have to donate money or pay dues? But what if a small portion of their everyday purchases went to a "Save Our Trails" fund?? Anyway... I'll give you a call...

[picoguard]

 

[BirdDog]

snowcat, I will agree not to unstack rocks if you agree not to stack them.

I hope with all your concern for the trails & the fact that you think the current group of trail crew VOLUNTEERS are lazy, if you are not already a volunteer in some way that you would join & help. There are many ways to help

Four Wheel Drive Club of Fresno. We always need new members who are willing to help.

Or any of the other hard working Clubs that Host Trails, Campgrounds or put on events, they can all use the help.

Search & Rescue

OHV Host Program

I'm sure there is more but that is a good start.

[84socal]

  ok guys  i see where both side are coming from     but from what i gather snowcat stacks rocks to return the trail to its natural self   correct? 


if that was the case wouldnt u wanna just leave it alone??
cause leaving it alone  would be natural 
and like said above  the forest service  says its a black diamond trail
i seriously doubt the they would go stack rock on a trail of that rating

[46&2]

How does anybody know the rocks weren't "stacked" or "unstacked" by nature? When I was on Fordyce a few weeks ago I got in a sticky situation and had to "stack" a rock under my tire because I couldn't back up anymore. When I drove over the rock, it rolled down the hill and ended up several feet from where I got it. Seeing as there were small and big rocks alike scattered all over the place it never really occured to me that I should move it 4 feet back to where I got it. It just seems really silly to me that everyone is arguing over this like its the end of 4 wheeling.  I "stacked" one rock, the entire time I was on Fordyce. We stopped for lunch along the trail and I saw a medium sized rock slide down an embankment next to the trail and roll right into the trail.  Should I have moved it??

I understand both view points and I think stacking in the first place has its place but if you have to stack rocks the entire time you are on the trail you shouldn't be on that trail. What challenge is there is building a rock road to drive on? When my truck was on 32s with a limited slip I knew all I would do is break my truck and probably STACK rocks if I took my truck to Fordyce. So I didn't go to Fordyce. I went to other trails suited for my trucks ability. It just seems to me like a big, silly, confusing mess to run around and try and figure out what rock should be where. Its a freakin' rock. Its not an endangered tortoise, its a rock.

I have never been to Swamp Lake so I don't know how bad rock stacking/unstacking really is. It seems to me the bigger issue is people stacking rocks who shouldn't be on that trail, not people with rigs that are 100% capable for that trail who are unstacking rocks. Unless you guys get some kind of satellite rock tracking devise this whole topic just seems redundant and pointless. I really doubt that stacking or unstacking rocks will have any bearing on anything. If people are going to be jack asses and drive off the trail, they are going to do it. Its educating people about NOT going off the trail that is more important than some silly rock limbo. Besides, do you know how far stretched Forest service employees are?? Last I checked there are only like 1 or 2 officers per 3,000 square miles or something like that. They are closing state parks left and right because they can't afford to keep them staffed and maintained. Do you really think the Foresty officers are gonna waste their time moving rocks around? I think they have bigger, more important fish to fry. snowcat is right that we all need to get together and fight for our trails, but this is getting a little absurd.

[Cheesemaker]

The first time I went rock crawling, and we came across a spot that was very obvious, that it was stacked to help people with less capable rigs.  It must of taken them an hour to stack it, because it looked like a paved road.   


The obvious thing to do is to use a rock when you need it, and then put it back when done!  It's just that simple. 

[WHITE_TRASH]

If you have to stack more than 5-10 rocks your rig should stay in the parking lot of whatever trail system you happen to be on. 

If its trail maintenance, that's one thing but to knowingly drive down a trail and spot a section that appears to be too hard and stack rocks there for no reason you have no purpose being there and you just proved yourself to be an idiot.

[FILDO]

Back to the TOPIC......So how was it LUCKY7?