Topic: Dana 44 axle help

[Willy Mammoth]

As you may know I am using D44's in the wagon project and don't know the first thing about them.

I have them apart and am looking for advice on what to look out for or any special tech to reassemble them.

These are from an 80 IH Scout.

The first questions I have is what to do with the screw in insert for the top ball joint?

The next is how are the ball joints installed in the outer C's?

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

Also how interchangeable are the spindles and rotor hubs? I would like to get away from the bolt on hubs and go with a splined type like Ford and Chevy.

[Rockcrawlintoy]

hey i believe you can use toyota hubs on the front 44. my buddy has a scout with toy hubs and 30 spline outer axles from warn.

[Rockcrawlintoy]

ok i read the part about the bolt on hubs again, take a toy hub and see how well it fits on there. i can give you my buddies screen name on pirate and he can help you further with this.

[Rockcrawlintoy]

As you may know I am using D44's in the wagon project and don't know the first thing about them.

I have them apart and am looking for advice on what to look out for or any special tech to reassemble them.

These are from an 80 IH Scout.

The first questions I have is what to do with the screw in insert for the top ball joint?


the sleeve helps set the preload for the ball joints, new ball joints have instructions on what to set them to.


The next is how are the ball joints installed in the outer C's?

the ball joints are pressed into the knuckle bottom one first. then the top one.

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

I wonder if it would be possible to convert to Toyota IFS birfields and 27 spline inners? Then use IFS hubs?

Just a thought, don't know what the down side would be if any or if it is even possible. I know Bobby Long makes a birfield for the Dana 60's and that would be the way I would go if using a 60.

[crawlerdan]

mark, i wheeled a d44 front with 40s for 5 years, i broke several times every weekend until i started running the following setup

warn premium hubs with upgraded bolts, and cryoed internals
alloy USA axle shafts with 297x u joints tack welded on, use bushing internals rather then roller bearing u joints
i had an ARB with 5.38s

this held up well with triple cases, 200 horse motor, and 39.5 boggers

arb also makes a locker for the 44 that makes it possible to run stock dana 60 axle shafts in the 44. i sold the rig before doing this


i know that chevy and ford 44s have interchangable knuckles.
i know that you have the skills to get GM "big hub" 44 8 lug knuckles on there. they have dana 60 size wheel bearings and larger brakes

this was the rig in question

[Rockcrawlintoy]

why not a CTM or a longfiend joint? i have a dana 44 with superior axles and longs with the full circle clips and an arb and i have yet to have issues.

[ZukIzzy]

Mark
The screw in bushing sets the ball joint preload. Tighten the lower ball joint then use the bushing tool.( I just make on out of 1.25" x.120 wall tubing and a cheap socket) to tighten down the bushing till you get the proper preload. I don't have a book near me but I use 15lbs @ the stearing arm with a fish scale on an empty Knuckle with new ball joints and around 8lbs on a used set.

Ford Chevy and Dodge Knuckles will fit on your inners. I recomend Chevys for the 6 bolt pattern .

Your Scout axles will have 0* caster from the factory and the pinion angle really sucks  if you try to rotate for a bit of caster. You may have to cut and turn the inners but it is not really worth it since chevy 44s are so easy to get.

Go Alloy-USA or Superior axles and Bobbys Super u-joints they hold up OK. I break stubs and inners in competition  but they earn their $ before they go. I have never broken a Longfield Super U-joint or a CTM and the broken axle count is over 20.

30 spline Birfs will not fit in the D44 knuckle we tried that already, you would have to swap to Toyota Knuckles and outer stuff. You could also put D60 outers on a D44 and use a 35 spline ARB but the $ is big for D60 outer stuff and you really just move the weak point in to the ARB or R&P. Dan Patterson runs one and has broken lots of R&P. I would rather change an axle then a R&P on the trail.

Ball Joints are pressed into the outer Knuckle with a Ball joint press. Looks like a big C- clamp, I have used the Hell out of a $30 HF one for years. Well worth the $ to buy it and the shame of owning stuff from HF

Good luck let me know if I can help with info.

Wayne

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

Thanks for your help,

I don't plan to beat this thing like the Mammoth, but would like to be setup so I don't start the Jeep thing.

I just ordered 4.27:1 Yukon gears and Detroit True Trac carriers. I plan on running 33" MTR's so it has good road manners.

Harbor Freight you say

I think I am going use the stock axles for now, but use a better Ujoint. Is there a good chromoly joint that won't break the bank?

I have a spare set of stub axles on the way.


Oh, and I may have to retube the front axle due to road salt poisoning. What would be a good caster angle?

[Wilson]

The IH axles are kinda their own animal.  You can swap out the knuckles to GM, which will open up any lug pattern you would like (5 on 5.5, 6 on 5.5 or 8 lug) based on what spindle you use.  The small bearing (70-72 GM) spindle will work for 5 on 5.5 witha  ford wheel hub and rotor, the "big bearing" spindle will work with 6 and 8 lug Gm wheel hubs.  If you plan to change the wheel hub, your IH stubs will be of no use to you.  They are 27 spl (I think) the most common stub count is 19 spl and was used by ford and GM.  The 30 spl stubs were a special deal Warn did. Warn makes internal lockouts for the gm wheel hubs.  Stay away from the ford knuckles, etc, the gm brakes are easier to work with and the "big" 1/2 ton calipers are more than up to the task of stopping your rig. I highly doubt you can use a toyota wheel hub, just don't see that being possible.  The toyota bearings are smaller.  Swapping the knuckles will also allow you to run high steer or use a crossover arm.  From the inner C out the IH axles are pretty much unique to IH.

The proper ball joint torque sequence is usually in the instructions.  It's something like lower bj= 50 ft lbs, upper bj sleeve nut 75 lbs and upper bj top nut 100 lbs.  The ball joints can either be pressed or driven in with a  hammer and piece of pipe of the proper dia.  I used 1.5" galv. steel pipe

If you think you have to retube the axle, I'd junk it and narrow down a chevy axle.  Factory castor should be 6 degrees, but that depends on many things.  I always bolt teh axle up, check castor with the weight of the rig on the springs and adjust both sides as needed.  It's pretty easy to "turn"  a D44.  This link has tons of options for narrowing a D44 adn using "stock" axle shafts for different perch widths and WMS widths.

http://home.4x4wire.com/erik/4runner/sas/#width

[ZukIzzy]

Thanks for your help,

I don't plan to beat this thing like the Mammoth, but would like to be setup so I don't start the Jeep thing.

I just ordered 4.27:1 Yukon gears and Detroit True Trac carriers. I plan on running 33" MTR's so it has good road manners.

Harbor Freight you say

I think I am going use the stock axles for now, but use a better Ujoint. Is there a good chromoly joint that won't break the bank?

I have a spare set of stub axles on the way.


Oh, and I may have to retube the front axle due to road salt poisoning. What would be a good caster angle?

For u-joints just buy Bobby's and be done. I made a set of joints using spicer 297s and bronze bushing in place of the the needle bearings and full circle snap rings that lasted thru several broken axles ( I gave them away and they are still going strong on a well used CJ-7). Seems the needles crush and let the cap wooble which breaks the ears of the axle. You will need to machine the snap ring flat and bit further into the yoke to fit full circle snap rings, But I think you know a guy.

Between 3* and 6* is a good ball park for the caster and bee carefull with camber. the inners can ba a couple * off and you will not see it till the wheels are on. Ask me how I know.

As Wilson said you would be better off swaping out the outers as IH used the WEEK 27 spline outers striaght off the CJ d30. D44 outers are 19 spline and the Fords will be a bit longer than the GM stuff. In a pinch you can use a GM in a ford to get home but not the other way around. Way more options availble for the chevy stuff.

Good luck
wayne
 

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

what year range Chevy axle should I look for?
If I get a clean one it will save me some work.

Thanks

[Wilson]

70-78-ish.....avoid the 10 bolt, I'm not sure when they switched.  Some have flat top knuckles on both sides

[ZukIzzy]

what year range Chevy axle should I look for?
If I get a clean one it will save me some work.

Thanks

70 thru 75 were all d44s after 75 the rears could be d44 or 10 bolt, front were mostly d44s with the odd 10 blot mixed in till around 79 when they switched to all 10 bolts. Still look if the truck is newer than 78 lots of shortages around the early 80s caused GM to source from dana from time to time.

[Wilson]

Nothing really wrong with the IH rear end.  The one that was under my cruiser was beat to hell.  Can't see how the shafts are not twisted in it.  Waggy D44's may also suit your needs, depending on what you're after for spring-perch width and have the same 6 bolt spindle pattern as the GM knucks (can convert to 5 on 5.5 to match the IH rear)

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

I guess the plan is to look for a Chevy front 44 and cut it down to the width of the Scout and use the outer Scout C's and the Chevy spindles, rotor hubs and outer stub axles.

This way I get to keep the high steer arms and width, but get the stronger outer stub and can use the Chevy style hubs. Sound good?

[Wilson]

Your axle already has high steer arms?  My IH axle did not have flat tops..unless the person fabbed it together like I've seen on some Ford knucks

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

I'm not sure, but it looks higher than the others I have seen.

[Wilson]

Ahh yes, now I remember.....Them are some loooong arms.  I can't believe I forgot about them.  Gm spindles will not bolt onto those though

[ZukIzzy]

Mark, Those Knucks are an odd bird. They have a really long steering arm that requires a really long pitman to get full turning. They are not compatible with d44 high steer arms but they do have a taller placement of the tie rod. You can use chevy outer hubs on those scout spindles. When I was wheeling scouts I drilled the 8 bolt pattern in in several gm spindles cause scout stuff could not be had in a pinch. I probly have one or 2 still if you need em.

I would assemble what you have best you can and use it while searching for a chevy d44 with flat top knucks. I have lots of outer chevy stuff I can ship ya if you need it.

Wayne

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

Mark, Those Knucks are an odd bird. They have a really long steering arm that requires a really long pitman to get full turning. They are not compatible with d44 high steer arms but they do have a taller placement of the tie rod. You can use chevy outer hubs on those scout spindles. When I was wheeling scouts I drilled the 8 bolt pattern in in several gm spindles cause scout stuff could not be had in a pinch. I probly have one or 2 still if you need em.

I would assemble what you have best you can and use it while searching for a chevy d44 with flat top knucks. I have lots of outer chevy stuff I can ship ya if you need it.

Wayne

Good thing I am using the Scout steering box too.

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

OK next questions, I am getting ready to setup the gear sets and need to know about carrier bearing preload.

I understand there is a spreader that helps get the carrier in with the correct amount of shims. What does this look like and how do you determin how much you need for extra shims to get the proper preload?

[crawlerdan]

if you havnt already been on randysringandpinion.com , then he has set up suggestions, how tos, and FAQ for almost all common axles

looks good man, im still waiting to hear on that starter, unless you called the dood??

[ZukIzzy]

OK next questions, I am getting ready to setup the gear sets and need to know about carrier bearing preload.

I understand there is a spreader that helps get the carrier in with the correct amount of shims. What does this look like and how do you determin how much you need for extra shims to get the proper preload?

a case spreader looks like a tennis raquet string tensioner on sterroids. 2 large paralell bars with pins in the center that fit in those 2 machined hole on either side of the case. a clamp to hold the pins in the holes, ubolts work well. connecting the 2 bars on one end is an adjustable bar hinged on each end, then the other side is a threaded rod used to apply spreading force to the case.

Honestly I made on a few years ago and don't use it any more. I get the shims as tight as I can drive in with a soft lead mallet and call it good. Factory spec for spreading the case is only .005 before deformation and I can more than .0025 preload on each side easily with a mallet. A couple pry bars on teh ring gear bolts will pull the carrier too. There are lots of my gear set ups running around with no problems using this method but use your judgment.

Hope that helps

Wayne

[Wilson]

I've never needed or used a spreader either. FWIW

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

Next stupid question:

I see the ring gear bolts are 3/8" and the holes in the True Track are 7/16" What gives. I could understand the need to figure for slop, but this is ridiculous.

The bolts sre going to allow the ring gear to shift back and forth causing them to shear off.

I'm not liking these 44's at all, but too late now.

Was there differant size ring gear bolts at some point, I didn't see the option when I ordered everything.


#%&*@

[crawlerdan]

ya, unfortunately there are different 44s, since they where used in so many hughley different rigs

i would contavt the maker of the gears and see if there is an IH specific gear, or if there are bolt hole differences in thier catalog.

[Willy Mammoth [OP]]

I will most likley just re drill the holes to fit the size bolts. There isn't any reason they could not have done a multi hole flange on the carrier. There isn't a choice on the site where I got the gears.

I am even thinking about having the gears setup buy a shop so I don't have to mess with it.

I should have gone 9" ford for the rear and a 9" 60 hybrid for the front.

[crawlerdan]

I will most likley just re drill the holes to fit the size bolts. There isn't any reason they could not have done a multi hole flange on the carrier. There isn't a choice on the site where I got the gears.

I am even thinking about having the gears setup buy a shop so I don't have to mess with it.

I should have gone 9" ford for the rear and a 9" 60 hybrid for the front.

hell ya buddy...but im sure the missus woulda peed in your cheerios