Topic: buick 231 swap?

[kyle_22r]

lately i've been looking at some different options for more power for my truck.  i'm kind of interested in a 3.8l buick v6.  it seems i can come across refurbished motors rather easily, and there's a decent aftermarket.  i've seen all the 4.3l chevy buzz, but i don't want to be destroying my drivetrain all the time.  i don't exactly want to go too high in horsepower/torque since i'd like to keep most of my drivetrain toyota.  i'd like the bigger motor for being able to make it across the pass with my fishing boat and camping gear in the summer time

if i did this swap, i would run a r150 or r151 tranny and dual 23 spline transfer cases.  i see downey makes most parts needed for the swap, such as motor mounts and a bellhousing(though i saw something about a certain stock bellhousing that fits the r150/ax-15?)

i've heard the buick 3.8 is only around 25lbs heavier than a 22r too, but i'm not positive.  i've also tried finding info on the 3.4l chevy engine, but not much luck there.

[brainlessfool]

all I can say is that with a few years working for Buick , that the 3.8 even fire motor is a good motor. the early vrison (odd fire) is a good motor too, just shakes you a bit!

[Marlin]

Back in the eightys, the big Buick 3.8 was the was to go. However due to low oil pressure (the pump is in the timing cover, and when it wears out, the cover must be replaced).  Blown head gaskets (there are very long half moon water ports at the end of the heads and few head bolts) Water leaks at the end of the intake mainafold, small 1/4" water pump bolts that rust and break off.
The engine is wide .........
Sorry, but I think the motor is a boat anchor
Have you concidered a 2.7 150 hp Tacoma?

[brainlessfool]

got ta agree with marlins points. he's right, I never "played" with the 3.8s just worked on them in them "stock" set-ups. they did fine running mom to the store, but can see how the things marlins saying would not make them ideal for a swop.

[kyle_22r [OP]]

thanks for the help, guys

those are some good points to consider.  how hard exactly would it be to get a 2.7 in?  i'd imagine i'd have to fab up motor mounts for it, and reroute the exhaust, since it's on the passenger side.  plus i'd have to get the harness, since nobody makes a standalone one yet.  would be a cool motor to have though

i would kind of like the torque that a v6 engine provides, but i'm still very open in my options since i haven't set anything in stone yet.

[brainlessfool]

what year is your truck? 79-83 don't have a lot of room.

[kyle_22r [OP]]

it's a '79

[4.3 headache]

hey! maybe look for an 85 or newer 2wd w/ efi  sometimes u can pick them up in L.A area for 800-1000$ and u will have evrything u need . 22re will run better than ol' wore out 20r.
   2.7 taco too much hassle & money . would be cool bt for that money might as well go 4.3!    

[kyle_22r [OP]]

i've also found some info on the 3.4l gm crate engine.  wonder if anybody out there runs this...seems to be halfway between a 22re and 4.3:  160hp and 200lb torque

[brainlessfool]

sorry , can't help ya with that one.

[84runner]

Go with a 22RE with a header, torq cam, and it should get it done for ya

[jr9162]

i've also found some info on the 3.4l gm crate engine.  wonder if anybody out there runs this...seems to be halfway between a 22re and 4.3:  160hp and 200lb torque

I thought about this one myself. Not an overly large or heavy powerplant. 60 degree so it's even fire and better balanced than the 90 degree engines. Can run a Edelbrock manifold with a 390 cfm Holley or keep it EFI. You'd need to use a 96-99 Dakota 2.5L bellhousing to connect it to a R series gearbox, or an 88-99 Jeep 2.5L bellhousing to connect to a W56 gearbox. To use the R151F you'll need to swap in a Jeep AX15 input shaft and input shaft bearing cover. You need the Camaro/Firebird 3.4L (thicker) flywheel and 10 spline clutch. Use the Dakota hydraulic trowout bearing assembly.

I have other data else where. Have to locate it on my work PC....

[Ferg]

I had one of these in my '80 once - hated the damn thing.  Nothing but broken /busted GMparts ALL the time.  Forget this idea.

Currently running a 4.3L and lovin' it.  Lot of options for mods, etc.

[kneedownnate]

all I can say is that with a few years working for Buick , that the 3.8 even fire motor is a good motor. the early vrison (odd fire) is a good motor too, just shakes you a bit

Years ago I test drove an old cj5 w/odd fire buick and it almost sounded like a v8.  I've always wanted to do this conversion(even fire) too since it takes the least fabrication, and I don't wanna do a body lift or molest my firewall to clear a distributor.  From the pics I've seen the buick looked like it fit quite nicely in the older trucks too, never looked terribly wide to me, but that coulda been camera angle too.  I think I'd rather run a 302 than a 4.3 or 350, but that's just me.  The 3.4 chevy is based on the 3.1, which is based on the old 2.8 isn't it?  I know they supposedly worked out the kinks, but I don't really trust american car builders when they say that kinda stuff.  Just my       Nate

[jr9162]

Yeah,

I'd prefer the 302 too. Rather have an inline six but that puts one back in the Supra engine conversion mode and no 'correct' solution to using a R151F.

It takes a bit of effort to install the 3.4L Chevy engine, gathering the correct pieces. Especially when a 3.4L Toyota is also available.

Wish there was a 'correct' solution to using the 3RZ-FE with a R151F.

JR

[kneedownnate]

Another option, albeit expensive, is there's a guy on ebay that is always selling imported toy diesels, has a 3L w/4by tranny for $2750.  I REALLY want a toyota diesel 4by but don't have the funds to pick up one, let alone in the early body style.     Nate

[19801981]

dude ive been running 231 buick for 7 yrs i have two trucks that have that motor one is 87 regal and another 86 those motors r great with the t 350 trans its all the power u need unless your tractor pulling r something go to big ol yotas and u can see its a good fit well it also is simple to work on as well less expensive all round i hope ull find the light....  

[Bob Garrett]

Another option, albeit expensive, is there's a guy on ebay that is always selling imported toy diesels, has a 3L w/4by tranny for $2750.  I REALLY want a toyota diesel 4by but don't have the funds to pick up one, let alone in the early body style.     Nate

Might be ok as long as you don't loooong waits for parts 

Bob

[kyle_22r [OP]]

LOL, odd coincidence that this thread came back to life just as i got the 22R and new tranny bolted into my truck

[Bushmaster]

Just thought i'd add my two cents on this. It might help some other people. I have a 231 in my '83 Toyota 4x4. Let me tell you this. If you use stock buick engine mounts, you WILL break them. As for what Marlin said, I have no leaks. The small bolts in the water pump won't break if you replace them with stainless steal ones. Get a high volume oil pump. I bought an after market high volume front cover. The new front cover has an actual seal rather than the stock rope seal, so i have no more leaks there. The whole engine does not leak a drop. Make sure you widen the oil passages in the crank or you will strip a gear off the distributer. You can bolt a Turbo 350 tranny straight up to a 231. With an adapter you can bolt that to the stock toyota transfer. That's the setup i'm running and have yet to break any of the toyota running gear, just the GM stuff. You will need to modify the bump stops on the front ends or you will smash your starter and oil pan. You will also need stronger springs in the front if you don't want the front end sagging. The engine is a little wide, but it fits with ease. You can use the stock buick exhaust crap, but i'm replacing mine with headers and dual exhaust.

If any of you guys are interested in a 231 setup, message me, maybe i can give you some pointers.

[Greg55_99]

How about a Buick 3800....

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376653




Greg

[h0nke]

stick with 22R

[kneedownnate]

A buick 3800 is a 231.  231 is 3.8 liter, or 3800 cc, hence being called a 3800.  I like em myself, but then again I've never run one so what do I know 

[kyle_22r [OP]]

the 3800 is a 2nd gen 231.  pretty similar but it's got a 60* chevy bellhousing, and all of them were EFI and lots were supercharged.

and for a little update, my engine's specs are now as follows:

'82 22R block, .040 over, decked, cast pistons, moly rings
'79 20R head, fully rebuilt, oversized stainless valves, ports massaged, milled.
offenhauser C series intake, weber 32/36 carb
thorley tri-y header

this thing RIPS!  it feels like it's got close to 150hp...

[kneedownnate]

I bet that's fun!  Yours is set up much better than mine.  It's a stock 22r block and stock 20r head, 32/36 weber and unknown brand 4 into 1 header.  It usually does alright, but could use more still.  I'd like to set one up like yours, but for all that cash I think I could convert to a 302 and have all the grunt I need.

[kyle_22r [OP]]

it isn't all that bad when i've looked at it.  i could've done it a TON cheaper by just going with the 20R head and my weber in the beginning rather than building the 22R which had a warped head and kept blowing gaskets, and broke a cam.

by going with the 20R head in the beginning i would have saved:
$300 on having the stock carb rebuilt(big mistake, the guys were idiots)
$35 having the 22R head resurfaced
$100 for a new cam after the original one snapped
$100 in miscellaneous gaskets, fluids etc

let's see how much i've got into my engine in its current form:

machine work: about 600-700 for everything(this includes having the block bored and honed, washed and decked, rods rebushed,  having the 20R head completely rebuilt with my new valves and seals etc)
master rebuild set: $250
ARP head and main studs: $170
EPN stainless O/S valves, 268c torker cam, bronze guides,  retainers, springs and alll: about $200 or so
offy manifold: $150 used
weber: free, came with my truck, but i paid $20 for a rebuild kit and $50 for a box of jets
thorley header: $189 from summit

so, that puts me at a bit under $1800.  not bad for a peppy little engine that screams when you hit it hard, bolts directly in to most any toyota pickup, and isn't too terrible on gas(though i'm sure i could get it better if i had an A/F gauge to get everything tuned spot-on).

and yet, i still have ideas of what i want to do with it next.  my current thought is to get my hands on a single DCOE cannon intake, run a TWM DCOE replacement throttle body on it, and rig up fuel injection with SDS or megasquirt...

[kneedownnate]

   $1800!  Yours is much better built than mine, but in my current state this is how it goes:

81 block from my old 2wd - paid $1500 for truck, got hit by suburban, they gave me $2000, block has 350k mi or so and doesn't even seem tired or make wierd noises.

76 celica head - bought 79 truck and 76 celica for $50, parted out for $50 = free head

junkyard header for $30

weber came on truck, rebuild kit cost $15

electric fuel pumps are free 

$5 for metal strap to mount ps pump

$50 for a hybrid that smokes any engine I've had to date in a toyota (truck atleast)

I do have some goody parts for the next hybrid though:

NOS Mikuni cam for about $50-60 off ebay

NOS Holley 4bbl manifold for $80 off ebay

NWOR header for $120 off ebay

ATK rblt 22r block with 35,000 miles from $300 parts truck, parted out $300 in parts = free block

Free 20r head from our engine rebuilder, just hafta pay cost of him rebuilding it, expecting around $200 maybe ?

Figuring on about $75 or so for OS valves for 20r head

Figuring on about $300 for new holley 390 carb

That's a little under $800, probably add on another $100 for other miscellaneous parts.  That puts me right about half of your cost, but yours will undoubtedly outrun mine with ease.  I'm not gonna go inside the block at all like you did, not that I wouldn't want to, just don't see myself doing it.  It's really funny how your (people's) mind works.  You start thinkin how cheap it would be to do a build up, then before you know it you've either met or exceeded the cost of buying one or having a nice one built for you.  I know yours would have cost substantially more to have a shop build, but if you stay fairly simple I would think a shop could cut a pretty good deal on a basic hybrid.

[kyle_22r [OP]]

just think of it this way...ever see how much shops tend to charge for a plain jane 22R rebuild?

even at $1800 i'm well ahead of a lot of guys that dump a lot into add-ons.  if you do ANYTHING, spend your money on the head!  that's where you'll get the most gain...

my engine was replacing a 20R with 300,000 miles on it.  even with a 4 speed i found myself downshifting into 3rd gear a lot on the freeway, the engine was just that worn out.  still fired up and ran every morning, even with a massive vacuum leak.  when i bought the truck it burned about a quart of oil every 2000 miles, by the time i yanked the engine, the front main had blown and i had run it down to a quart of oil a few times!  still ran fine, just got horrible mileage.

now it lives on, being that i had the entire top end rebuilt and put it on my 22R.  well, it's probably at least as twice as much power as before

[kneedownnate]

Oh yea, it's a far cry from the stock 20r!  I drive up the same steep hill on I5 to work every day, and judge each upgrade by what speed I hit the top at.  20r was 50-55, 22r was 55-60, and with hybrid if I hit the bottom doing 65, I hit the top doing 65, long as there's no wind.  Sometimes I can even hit the bottom at 60 and top at 65.  Can't wait to see what it's gonna be like when I get the other engine together.

[kyle_22r [OP]]

if i gas it her good, by the time i'm at 55 i've still got 2 gears left!