Author Topic: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds  (Read 552 times)

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Colston

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81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« on: Jan 23, 2021, 05:12:25 PM »
I am running an 81 22r in a Toyota Celica. After the car has sat for an hour or two it will start on the first crank and dies after 3-4 seconds of smooth running (no matter what I do with the gas peddle). Additional starts fire after 7-8 seconds of cranking, then it runs choppy for 3-4 seconds before dying. I have replaced the fuel filter, the fuel pump, and cleared the gas tank and all of the fuel lines. I cant get the car to run long enough to check the timing - but a redneck jumped tooth check (locking the timing to either side of the slot) yields no results. I recently replaced the plugs and wires, but I will check for fuel on the plugs tonight. The exhaust is not plugged. No results from pinching the fuel return line either.

The fuel pump is producing enough pressure - but I don't see anything in the sight glass with the wife cranking the engine. I have no experience with carburetors, I'm on a budget, and am struggling to find a Hanes Manuel for the car. Any ideas? Feel free to email me / reply here.

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #1 on: Jan 23, 2021, 05:29:20 PM »
if you pull off the fuel pump line to the carb does it spray while you crank it.

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Gnarly4X

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #2 on: Jan 23, 2021, 06:24:52 PM »
Sounds like the float valve may be stuck?  Could be AAP? Could be vacuum leak?

Sounds like more of fuel/air thing than ignition.

Can you look straight down the carb before you try to start the engine, turn the throttle linkage and see if you can any fuel shooting into the venturi?

Rebuilding that carb is not too bad.  I've rebuilt lots of carbs in past years, but haven't opened one up in years.  The rebuild kits come with detailed instructions and diagrams.


Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jan 23, 2021, 06:32:27 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

MEMBER: NRA, GOA, SAF "I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you" ~ Robin Williams

Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #3 on: Jan 23, 2021, 10:47:34 PM »
Fuel does squirt out of the line from the fuel pump to the carb. I replaced the fuel pump anyways - just in case it wasn't producing enough pressure. Ill check the venturi tomorrow - is it supposed to squirt fuel even while not cranking? Also, can I just grab a 45$ rebuild kit from autozone/orilys/amazon or is it one of those finicky OEM or nothing ordeals? Also, are there any major pitfalls or common mistakes to look out for during a rebuild? (assuming I have a basic set of tools and am only a little bit retarded - not the full blown often seen in non-MC repair forums)

I think its a fuel/air problem too - but the fuel system is clean (up until the carburetor) and I cant keep it running long enough to check vacuum lines with an aerosol can. A simple hand/eye check hasn't found any major holes.

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #4 on: Jan 24, 2021, 05:10:53 AM »
Hey Colston...

There are guys on here that know way more than I do about that carb.  H8PVMNT has made love to his carbs more than a few times.

WALKER PRODUCTS 15827A Info
Carb Manufacturer: Aisin: 2 BBL; Carb Model: Aisan

If you look down the carb with engine not running, and pull the throttle linkage fairly quickly and smoothly you should see a fine stream of fuel squirt into the venturi.

If the stream is broken up, then the AAP is bad.

If NO stream of fuel - then you have to throw the carb away and get a new one.





NO!!! Iím kidding!!

If there is no fuel being squirted, I suspect the float valve is stuck.

If you pull the throttle linkage slowly you should see a nice steady unbroken stream of fuel being squirted from the Auxillary Accelerator Pump.

I rebuilt the carb on my 1985 22R Pickup back in 1999, so itís been quite awhile, Iím pulling this out of my old memory bank.

I would buy the Walker kit, but the Rochester on RockAuto looks good too.

If you buy a kit for AutoZone or other auto parts store, ask who makes the kit.  Like most aftermarket auto parts, some are good and some are junk.

The Walker part number for your 1981 is the same part number for the 1985, so itís the same carb.

I donít remember any carb that I rebuilt that requires special tools.

When I rebuild my carbs, I clean the carb with carb cleaner and blow it off with compressed air.  If you donít have a compressor you can use canned air.

When you disassemble the carb there may be some fuel in it, so do it over a clean bucket or some thick rags.

Some people soak the carb in bucket of solvent overnight, I donít like to soak anything overnight, so I clean the parts with carb cleaner and a small brush, and air. If I soak any parts I use paint thinner and soak for 10 or 15 minutes.

I get a big old terrycloth towel and lay it out on a nice big flat table when Iím ready to start the rebuilding.  I follow the kitís instructions.

There are lots of parts, so I work on a table sitting down, relaxed, in a quiet place and plenty of light. TAKE YOUR TIME!  Be extra careful not to lose any little parts, like the ball check bee-bees, oírings, and spring clips. The measurement for the float level needs to be exact.  Torque things nice and snug, but donít over tighten them Ė brass alloy is relatively is soft.

Cleanliness is critical as you reassemble the parts.

Let us know what you find out.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2021, 05:18:54 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

MEMBER: NRA, GOA, SAF "I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you" ~ Robin Williams

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #5 on: Jan 24, 2021, 11:26:17 AM »
With fuel at the carb, it is likely the carb itself.  A carb rebuild kit from a parts house should be good enough, Rockauto.com might be worth a look price wise.
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Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #6 on: Jan 25, 2021, 07:18:44 PM »
Alright, a Walker Products 15827A Carburetor Rebuild Kit is on the way. I have been busy with work and have not gotten a chance to check for fuel in the venturi.

Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #7 on: Jan 26, 2021, 03:44:38 PM »
When I pull the linkage I do get a steady, unbroken, stream of fuel. Now that I have all of the air filter housing off I can see I do have fuel in the sight glass. I had the Mrs. try and start the engine with the carb open to the air - and it looks like I'm getting way too much fuel. The engine shaking to a stop is enough to flick excess fuel out the top of the carb.

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #8 on: Jan 26, 2021, 05:30:02 PM »
jetted to big or to rich. float set to high??

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Gnarly4X

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #9 on: Jan 26, 2021, 05:30:52 PM »
Hey C...

So it sounds like the AAP is OK. So... I think you will find when you pull the carb that float valve is stuck open because the needle is not closing its orifice, or the float is corroded and full of fuel, and won't float. 

If the float won't float it won't shut off the fuel.  The fuel pump floods the float bowel quickly and basically floods the venturi and stalls engine with excessive fuel.

Please let us know what you find.

Gnarls,.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

MEMBER: NRA, GOA, SAF "I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you" ~ Robin Williams

Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #10 on: Jan 30, 2021, 04:25:55 PM »
Alright, the carb is rebuilt. I didn't notice anything broken or anything stuck. The only issue seemed to be the spacing with the float. Put it back in with the new parts and now the car starts and will stay running - but it idles at 2900 rpm. I suspect its the air fuel mixture and idle screw - but I am still completely new to carbs and don't quite understand how the air fuel mixture screw works. The walker rebuild kit said screw it in until it seats, then back out 2.5 turns. Nothing I do to the screw (moving +/- 2 turns from the 2.5) seems to do anything. It wont idle low enough for me to check the timing. Any ideas?

It had an inch thick hard rubber spacer at the base (no paper gaskets). I added the paper gaskets from the rebuild kit - should I not have done that? Also, the rebuild kit had kind of crap instructions - does anything need to be torqued to spec?
« Last Edit: Jan 30, 2021, 06:57:03 PM by Colston »

Gnarly4X

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #11 on: Jan 31, 2021, 02:57:54 PM »
Will the butterfly completely close?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

MEMBER: NRA, GOA, SAF "I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you" ~ Robin Williams

Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #12 on: Feb 01, 2021, 02:39:36 PM »
Alright - I found a few issues. The Valve-Idle Compensator tabs were layered incorrectly. Apparently that component is an 81-82 only part, (it was extremely difficult to find the assembly order of those parts - two tabs, a thin U shaped spacer, the base, and the thick U shaped block) which created a vacuum leak. Also, the timing is clearly off. Moving the distributor housing changes the idle speed. So now I have a few issues - which hose is supposed to connect to the bottom of the air filter housing (small 1/8"insh hose that only connects the open air inside the diameter of the air filter and the bottom passenger side of the filter housing *sorry, cant post photos yet*). Also - how do I check the timing? I have never done the timing on a Carbed engine. I keep seeing "ground the T" but I dont have a labeled fuse box, and dont know how to get the engine speed to a timing RPM.

Sorry for being such an amateur - thanks for the help.
Having moved the distributor housing and fixed the valve-idle compensator, it now only idles with pressure on the peddle. The moment I release the peddle it dies.
« Last Edit: Feb 01, 2021, 04:16:07 PM by Colston »

Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #13 on: Feb 01, 2021, 02:42:28 PM »
Will the butterfly completely close?

Gnarls.

Yes the butterfly will close. Do you think I need to tighten up the electric choke coil?

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #14 on: Feb 01, 2021, 04:54:02 PM »
Yes the butterfly will close. Do you think I need to tighten up the electric choke coil?

I'm not sure what you mean by tighten. I don't remember adjusting mine, but most electric chokes are adjustable.

https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/adjusting-riveted-choke.129625/

Like many Toyota parts, the electric choke thermostat is one those Japanese auto engineers are very proud of.

The choke functions primarily for cold start.  If they are stuck some how, typically you get over rich mixture.  If they aren't working, you don't get enough fuel in the mixture so the engine wil have harder time firing when really cold.

Regarding the ignition timing - you need to get a timing light on it to accurately time it.  But I timed my 22R by ear many times.  So I'd loosen the disty bolt just enough the rotate the distributor and see if you can retard the spark.  It may be too advanced and causing the RPM to be too high.

Another thing that can cause a high RPM at idle is a vacuum leak.  Of course the idle screw setting is important.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Feb 01, 2021, 05:08:08 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

MEMBER: NRA, GOA, SAF "I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you" ~ Robin Williams

Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #15 on: Feb 01, 2021, 05:20:46 PM »
I have a timing light, but am struggling to see the notch under the gauge block. I see some forums say disconnect the vacuum advance and plug the hoses (just with your fingers I assume) and others say jump the T (a fuse somewhere I assume, is this just for 22RE engines?)

Also, disregard the hose problem - the hose I needed had tucked itself under the battery and hid from me.

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #16 on: Feb 01, 2021, 05:53:57 PM »
I have a timing light, but am struggling to see the notch under the gauge block. I see some forums say disconnect the vacuum advance and plug the hoses (just with your fingers I assume) and others say jump the T (a fuse somewhere I assume, is this just for 22RE engines?)

Also, disregard the hose problem - the hose I needed had tucked itself under the battery and hid from me.

Take a white grease pencil and fill the timing notch on the harmonic balancer pulley. You need to plug the vacuum hose to disty.

Ignition timing on 22R is 0 degrees at 900 RPM

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

MEMBER: NRA, GOA, SAF "I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you" ~ Robin Williams

Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #17 on: Feb 01, 2021, 07:31:41 PM »
Thanks for the help, should I get the car to 900 rpm with the idle speed screw only? Also, I think I am still having trouble with the Valve-idle compensator plugging properly. Every 4-5 starts the car will start and rev up to and stay at 3k. Will I run into trouble if I just plug that compartment? (driver side rear of the carb, a vertical shell held on with two offset screws)

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #18 on: Feb 02, 2021, 02:45:15 AM »
Thanks for the help, should I get the car to 900 rpm with the idle speed screw only? Also, I think I am still having trouble with the Valve-idle compensator plugging properly. Every 4-5 starts the car will start and rev up to and stay at 3k. Will I run into trouble if I just plug that compartment? (driver side rear of the carb, a vertical shell held on with two offset screws)

You need to get the engine idling properly at 900 RPMs so you can correctly set the ignition timing.

If the idle screw is closed (and be careful not to crank it down hard) and the engine is still idling too fast, the air/fuel mixture is wrong and getting too much fuel, you have vacuum leak, or the disty is way too advanced.

You should be able stall the engine with the idle screw.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

MEMBER: NRA, GOA, SAF "I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you" ~ Robin Williams

Lewis Hein

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #19 on: Feb 02, 2021, 06:32:34 PM »
I have a timing light, but am struggling to see the notch under the gauge block. I see some forums say disconnect the vacuum advance and plug the hoses (just with your fingers I assume) and others say jump the T (a fuse somewhere I assume, is this just for 22RE engines?)

Also, disregard the hose problem - the hose I needed had tucked itself under the battery and hid from me.

The jumping thing is only for 22RE trucks. For a 22R all you need to do is plug the vacuum advance hoses


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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #20 on: Feb 02, 2021, 06:35:42 PM »
So you have probably figured this out by now, but just in case...

There are two screws that could be called the "idle screw" You have described adjusting the idle mixture screw, but there is also a screw that holds the throttle slightly open to set idle speed. It should be at the very back of the carburetor and IIRC it has a coil spring underneath the head.

Colston [OP]

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Re: 81 22R wont run for more than 3 seconds
« Reply #21 on: Feb 09, 2021, 09:36:19 AM »
I finally got the thing running! The issue was certainly from a lack of experience. My carb has clearly been rebuilt before (Im pushing 270k miles and the rivets on the idle fixture had been drilled out). Apparently the last person to rebuild this carb heli-coiled the air / fuel mixture bore so it puts resistance on the screw and keeps it from backing out without the cap. I was "backing out 2.5 turns after you start to feel resistance from the pin seating" not from it seating at the end of the hole, but from it engaging the start of the heli-coil. Is this sort of fix common for our carbs, or did I just buy a jimmy rigged car? Its good to go now - thank you all for the help.

 
 
 
 
 

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