Author Topic: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE  (Read 2646 times)

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Gnarly4X

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2020, 05:07:37 PM »
You are right, torque is generally accepted in foot pounds, but just stating pounds doesn't give the proper info. Ever hear of INCH pounds? it's used VERY frequently. If you've been around anything mechanical your whole life you would know pounds are specified in inch and foot. Get the two mixed up and things FAIL! Either way. So go ahead and torque your head bolts to 75 pounds (inch) and see how long that lasts. It IS a pertinent piece of spec information. Any mechanic worth his weight in  :reg: knows the difference. It's not B.S.

Might as well just tighten all your bolts with a ratchet, there, feels tight.

I agree, proper is proper.  I know inch pounds.  There are few inch pounds of torque spec'd in the Toyota Factory Service Manuals, but the discussion was the torque spec for a head.

How many Toyota engine heads have you seen with an inch-pound spec'd?

Gnarls

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2020, 07:10:15 PM »
Fuggit, let's just go to newton meters on all the torque specifications.
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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2020, 11:11:14 PM »
Don’t mean to go off topic here, but my engine was originally a 22r with a “trd” cam.  I swapped over to efi, but left the carb cam in.  I know there is a slight difference between efi and carb cams.  Been running it like this for the last 16 years.  Wondering if I’m possibly losing out on an extra 1-2 Hp.  Lol.  Always wondered about this. 
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2020, 02:36:32 AM »
Don’t mean to go off topic here, but my engine was originally a 22r with a “trd” cam.  I swapped over to efi, but left the carb cam in.  I know there is a slight difference between efi and carb cams.  Been running it like this for the last 16 years.  Wondering if I’m possibly losing out on an extra 1-2 Hp.  Lol.  Always wondered about this. 

Hey super...

So there were (I don't know if the TRD cams are still available), 3 Levels, apparently, Crane profiles.

Here's a link to Roger's site with the cam specs:   https://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/EngineMods/index.shtml

Depending on which cam you had in that engine, you may or may not have lost out on any extra HP.

The numbers I ran on Engine Analyzer on the 3 profiles seem to push the HP numbers at higher RPMs.  Interestingly, the torque numbers changed but not significantly.

Regarding a few foot pounds of torque or a few HPs, in my 96HP 22R 1985 3200 pound shortbed even the slightest (2 to 4 foot lbs) increase in torque was very noticeable by my butt dyno.  I believe it’s been well demonstrated by a number of dyno tests that a bolt-in cam and bolt-on header and exhaust system can significantly increase power in a stock 22R.  Although the 22RE’s factory ECU may limit effective changes, 1mm oversized valves and a custom cam profile, can produce a significant increase in torque and HP.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=22RE+Performance+dyno+tests#id=1&vid=184f5a60b7ed4352f6abbffcde893504&action=click

A cam profile that will work well in a 22R carb’d engine may not work well in a 22RE.

According to the experts I’ve talked to, the head and head flow is the biggest factor in modifications that make more power in a 22.

Gnarls.  :gap:
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 02:44:32 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2020, 06:44:40 AM »
The biggest power modification you can do to a 22R or RE is a 3RZ swap :gap:

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2020, 02:05:52 PM »
The biggest power modification you can do to a 22R or RE is a 3RZ swap :gap:

NOPE!!! …. Chevy LS9.  :best:

If I do a swap it ain't gunna be for no piddly 25 HP!  :thumbdown:

If I do a swap it will be a V-8 and it will have a bad-a$$ lope!!  :booya:

Gnarls :woohoo:.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #36 on: Oct 13, 2020, 04:59:15 AM »
https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=19288.0

I found this nearly 15-year old short thread on replacing a camshaft and it is interesting that it seems to be a common misbelief that you cannot swap a camshaft in a 22 without replacing the head gasket.

Read post #5

Swapping camshafts on race engines is done all the time without removing the head.

If you are rebuilding an engine and you have ANY idea that you might swap a camshaft in the future, or have to replace the rocker rack, install an ARP Stud Kit and then you will make a future swap easily and with less risk of causing a problem with the seal of the head gasket.

Gnarls. :thumbs:
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2020, 12:37:26 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #37 on: Oct 13, 2020, 07:23:09 PM »
https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=19288.0

I found this nearly 15-year old short thread on replacing a camshaft and it is interesting that it seems to be a common misbelief that you cannot swap a camshaft in a 22 without replacing the head gasket.

Read post #5

Swapping camshafts on race engines is done all the time without removing the head.

If you are rebuilding and engine and you have ANY idea that you might swap a camshaft in the future, or have to replace the rocker rack, install an ARP Stud Kit and then you will make a future swap easily and with less risk of causing a problem with the seal of the head gasket.

Gnarls. :thumbs:

Outstanding thread!  Gnarls, what cam are you currently running? Engine specs?
‘82 Toyota RN38, mostly stock

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #38 on: Oct 14, 2020, 01:23:37 AM »
Outstanding thread!  Gnarls, what cam are you currently running? Engine specs?

Hey G…

Thank you.

Engine specs:  1986 22RE, bored .020” over, now stock head and valves, factory cam, Doug Thorley header.

As I have reported in my engine rebuild thread, I had major failures with the engnbldr head and rebuild kit, with a Crawler cam.  After doing a compression check and leakdown test, I pulled the head and had it inspected at my local head shop. They said the valves and valve seats were not installed correctly, and the valve springs were defective. All 4 exhaust valves were not closing.  I had the head shop build me a new head with stock valves. 

Since I don’t think the new head will fix the oil consumption of 1 quart every 600 miles (expert opinion says that the Chinese rings are defective), I didn’t want to invest in any more mods until I know if I have to pull this engine and completely rebuild it, or buy an engine from Jim at 22RE Performance. I decided to re-install the factory cam and the rocker rack that came out of the engine before I started the rebuild.  They are in very good condition and have relatively low mileage.

With the factory cam and stock valves, I noticed a definite difference - less torque throughout the RPM range, and slower throttle response than the engnbldr head, oversize valves, and Crawler 261C cam - before the head gasket and valve failures.

The pandemic thing allows me to work from home, so I am not driving my truck 350 miles a week, so I have not had a chance to see what the oil consumption is.  Once I figure out if this engine rebuild is good or bad, I will decide to buy a rebuilt 22 or do a V-8 swap.

If I stay with a 22RE and get it running like I want, I would like to go back to my original plan of 20 years ago and test several cam profiles on a local chassis dyno.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2020, 01:37:02 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #39 on: Oct 14, 2020, 03:44:44 PM »
Hey G…

Thank you.

Engine specs:  1986 22RE, bored .020” over, now stock head and valves, factory cam, Doug Thorley header.

As I have reported in my engine rebuild thread, I had major failures with the engnbldr head and rebuild kit, with a Crawler cam.  After doing a compression check and leakdown test, I pulled the head and had it inspected at my local head shop. They said the valves and valve seats were not installed correctly, and the valve springs were defective. All 4 exhaust valves were not closing.  I had the head shop build me a new head with stock valves. 

Since I don’t think the new head will fix the oil consumption of 1 quart every 600 miles (expert opinion says that the Chinese rings are defective), I didn’t want to invest in any more mods until I know if I have to pull this engine and completely rebuild it, or buy an engine from Jim at 22RE Performance. I decided to re-install the factory cam and the rocker rack that came out of the engine before I started the rebuild.  They are in very good condition and have relatively low mileage.

With the factory cam and stock valves, I noticed a definite difference - less torque throughout the RPM range, and slower throttle response than the engnbldr head, oversize valves, and Crawler 261C cam - before the head gasket and valve failures.

The pandemic thing allows me to work from home, so I am not driving my truck 350 miles a week, so I have not had a chance to see what the oil consumption is.  Once I figure out if this engine rebuild is good or bad, I will decide to buy a rebuilt 22 or do a V-8 swap.

If I stay with a 22RE and get it running like I want, I would like to go back to my original plan of 20 years ago and test several cam profiles on a local chassis dyno.

Gnarls.

That really sucks!  I’ll check out your engine thread to get more details on what happened.

I’d be very interested to see the different cam profiles dyno’ed on the same engine. Although I run an ‘82 engine with  the carb it would still be interesting to see.  The problem for me is no one makes a new head for the early model 22r engines. So I either get mine re-worked or get a later model block.
‘82 Toyota RN38, mostly stock

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #40 on: Oct 14, 2020, 04:04:13 PM »
That really sucks!  I’ll check out your engine thread to get more details on what happened.

I’d be very interested to see the different cam profiles dyno’ed on the same engine. Although I run an ‘82 engine with  the carb it would still be interesting to see.  The problem for me is no one makes a new head for the early model 22r engines. So I either get mine re-worked or get a later model block.

Hi G...

The carb'd engines seem to respond much better to cam changes than the 22REs.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #41 on: Oct 14, 2020, 06:19:30 PM »
Hi G...

The carb'd engines seem to respond much better to cam changes than the 22REs.

Gnarls.

I wonder if the numbers in the excel sheet would have the same trend in the 22r.  If so the Schneider 210/216 and 216/216 have my interest.  Below 2900 the 210/216 looks better but for 3000 rpm or more the 216/216 really shines.
‘82 Toyota RN38, mostly stock

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #42 on: Oct 14, 2020, 07:36:05 PM »
So many other cam grinders out there. I've used WEB cams in other engines. Curious about a couple of their grinds for the 22R/E. What do you think about their 94, 94a and 391 grinds?

 http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages_vehicles/automobile/toyota/982.html

Sirdeuce, what’s your thoughts on those 3 cam profiles?  The 391 is pretty interesting.  It’s a lot of cam compared to the two Schneider’s I was intrigued by. I wonder how it would perform in the carb’d engine
‘82 Toyota RN38, mostly stock

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #43 on: Oct 15, 2020, 04:07:57 PM »
Sirdeuce, what’s your thoughts on those 3 cam profiles?  The 391 is pretty interesting.  It’s a lot of cam compared to the two Schneider’s I was intrigued by. I wonder how it would perform in the carb’d engine

Those WEB cams with high lift and split centerlines are only for radically modified engines!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #44 on: Oct 15, 2020, 07:57:33 PM »
Those WEB cams with high lift and split centerlines are only for radically modified engines!!

Gnarls.

How radical of a build are we talking? I’d like to build my truck to pull hard all the way to 5000 rpm while maintaining the 22R’s reliability and streetability (is that even a word?) while not being a gas hog.  My old tired engine with 31s and 4.10 gears gets around 20. I’d give up some fuel economy for tq and hp, but I don’t want to get 12 mpg either.  This is my DD.  Can I have all this and still get 140-150 hp, 160-170 tq?  Or is that dreaming?

‘82 Toyota RN38, mostly stock

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #45 on: Oct 15, 2020, 09:06:11 PM »
How radical of a build are we talking? I’d like to build my truck to pull hard all the way to 5000 rpm while maintaining the 22R’s reliability and streetability (is that even a word?) while not being a gas hog.  My old tired engine with 31s and 4.10 gears gets around 20. I’d give up some fuel economy for tq and hp, but I don’t want to get 12 mpg either.  This is my DD.  Can I have all this and still get 140-150 hp, 160-170 tq?  Or is that dreaming?


Hi G….

Oh…. You were having that infamous dream that many of us have had…  and then you woke up!  :rofl2:

So my 1985 shortbed, basically stock 96 HP 22R with a DT header, 2” tubing and turbo muffler, 5-speed, weighed 3200 lbs. with a full tank of fuel.

It would blow the tailgate off both of my 1986 22REs.  It got 19 and 20 MPG and I didn’t baby it.

Can a 22R be rebuilt to get 140 to 150 HP and 160 to 170 ft. lbs of torque and pull all the way to 5,000, be Toyota reliable and get 20 MPG?  All of the numbers in my Performance Trend Engine Analyzer says probably.  Depending upon the weight of your truck, going from 96 HP to 130HP and 155 ft lbs of torque will be VERY noticeable!!

If I could go back in time and do a rebuild of my 1985 22R, I’d bore it 40 over, increase compression ratio to 9.5, port head, bigger valves, mid range torquey cam, DT header and 2” tubing, turbo muffler, stock intake and carb. If my AFR gauge didn’t show the right numbers, I’d change the intake manifold and bolt on a Weber.
 
I’d R&P the diffs so my peak torque would be at 3000 to 3200 RPMs. I want torque.  I don’t care about boosting the HP number at 5,500 RPMs… I don’t drive at 5,500 RPMs.

But from my limited engine building experience, knowing what I know now, I’d just have Jim at 22RE Performance build me an engine.

Go to LC Engineering and look at the Stage 2, 3, 4 cams.

https://www.lceperformance.com/Camshaft-20R-22R-RE-RET-Stage-3-Cam-p/1022039.htm

Would you consider the requirements for those cams to be a highly modified or radically built engine? :dunno:

Gnarls. :gap:
« Last Edit: Oct 17, 2020, 05:31:51 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #46 on: Oct 15, 2020, 10:40:46 PM »
Hi G….

Oh…. You were having that infamous dream that many of us have had…  and then you woke up!  :rofl2:

So 1985 shortbed, basically stock 96 HP 22R with a DT header, 2” tubing and turbo muffler, 5-speed, weighed 3200 lbs. with a full tank of fuel.

It would blow the tailgate off both of my 1986 22REs.  It got 19 and 20 MPG and I didn’t baby it.

Can a 22R be rebuilt to get 140 to 150 HP and 160 to 170 ft. lbs of torque and pull all the way to 5,000, be Toyota reliable and get 20 MPG?  All of the numbers in my Performance Trend Engine Analyzer says probably.  Depending upon the weight of your truck, going from 96 HP to 130HP and 155 ft lbs of torque will be VERY noticeable!!

If I could go back in time and do a rebuild of my 1985 22R, I’d bore it 40 over, increase compression ratio to 9.5, port head, bigger valves, mid range torquey cam, DT header and 2” tubing, turbo muffler, stock intake and carb. If my AFR gauge didn’t show the right numbers, I’d change the intake manifold and bolt on a Weber.
 
I’d R&P the diffs so my peak torque would be at 3000 to 3200 RPMs. I want torque.  I don’t care about boosting the HP number at 5,500 RPMs… I don’t drive at 5,500 RPMs.

But from my limited engine building experience, knowing what I know now, I’d just have Jim at 22RE Performance build me an engine.

Go to LC Engineering and look at the Stage 2, 3, 4 cams.

https://www.lceperformance.com/Camshaft-20R-22R-RE-RET-Stage-3-Cam-p/1022039.htm

Would you consider the requirements for those cams to be a highly modified or radically built engine? :dunno:

Gnarls. :gap:

I’ve looked at all of those cams before. I consider the stage 3 highly modified and the stage 4 radically...too much for what I want. They really don’t look all too different than the web cams.  Like you, I don’t really care near as much about hp at 5400 rpm as I do about a good tq curve. I want a lot of midrange tq and good hp numbers.  I have heard a lot of good about LCE back years ago but have also heard that lately it’s not the same quality it once was. I also know that shipping to/from Cali to 22RE Performance would be pricey and according to his website he won’t rebuild the older heads.   Also after looking at the stage 3 and 4 cams from lce they don’t look that much different than the web cam 391. Regardless, I need to continue to research and come up with a good plan.

I’m curious as to why you would keep the stock intake and carb?  I’ve been lurking here for years before I joined and I too would prefer to keep the stock carb if possible. Mine seems to work well and I had a Weber on my old FJ40 and I hated that thing.
‘82 Toyota RN38, mostly stock

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #47 on: Oct 16, 2020, 04:41:07 AM »
G....

I think you and I are on the same page.

Yes, the Web cams are close to LCE's Stage 3, 4 LCE cams. I just referenced LCE for their descriptions.

The reason I would “try” the Aisin carb first is because it *may* flow enough CFM for a mild cam and header engine, and it’s an excellent carb.

Also, during my duning years, I ran Webers for 8 years. In my experience, they are fussy, not easily tuned, and demand super clean air and fuel. Of course, the dunes are nearly as bad as it gets for dust…

well… being behind Dan McMillin for a few minutes in the Baja 500 would be the worst.  On my last sand rail I had 3 inline fuel filters from my gas tank to the carb.  I spent many hours making love to K&N air filters, and I can write a short story on my opinion of them.

I'm North of $5,000 on my rebuild project for my current 1986 22RE and it took me 3 years to save up the money.  I would really enjoy building an engine myself, but I think I may be a tad short on engine building knowledge and skills.  I bought my parts from a very well-known early Toyota source and trusted I was getting quality parts.  That turned out to not be true. For example, I was told when I questioned the head gasket in their rebuild kit that it was the same gasket as Toyota uses for their 22R Turbo engines.  THAT was BS! That DNJ head gasket is a perfect example of Chinese junk! I also trusted my local machine shop... I should have been very careful to understand EXACTLY how they machined the block and mic'd the parts (i.e. cylinder RA)... another mistake in trusting a very reputable shop. I did not purposely cut any corners on the rebuild, but obviously did not choose the right name brands.

My recommendation is to do lots of research and VERY carefully select your parts and who machines the block.  By the way I believe it takes more hours and more money to rebuild it right than what is typically predicted.

That's just my worthless opinion. :gap:

Gnarls.



« Last Edit: Oct 16, 2020, 05:16:48 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #48 on: Oct 16, 2020, 06:21:03 AM »
G....

I think you and I are on the same page.

Yes, the Web cams are close to LCE's Stage 3, 4 LCE cams. I just referenced LCE for their descriptions.

The reason I would “try” the Aisin carb first is because it *may* flow enough CFM for a mild cam and header engine, and it’s an excellent carb.

Also, during my duning years, I ran Webers for 8 years. In my experience, they are fussy, not easily tuned, and demand super clean air and fuel. Of course, the dunes are nearly as bad as it gets for dust…

well… being behind Dan McMillin for a few minutes in the Baja 500 would be the worst.  On my last sand rail I had 3 inline fuel filters from my gas tank to the carb.  I spent many hours making love to K&N air filters, and I can write a short story on my opinion of them.

I'm North of $5,000 on my rebuild project for my current 1986 22RE and it took me 3 years to save up the money.  I would really enjoy building an engine myself, but I think I may be a tad short on engine building knowledge and skills.  I bought my parts from a very well-known early Toyota source and trusted I was getting quality parts.  That turned out to not be true. For example, I was told when I questioned the head gasket in their rebuild kit that it was the same gasket as Toyota uses for their 22R Turbo engines.  THAT was BS! That DNJ head gasket is a perfect example of Chinese junk! I also trusted my local machine shop... I should have been very careful to understand EXACTLY how they machined the block and mic'd the parts (i.e. cylinder RA)... another mistake in trusting a very reputable shop. I did not purposely cut any corners on the rebuild, but obviously did not choose the right name brands.

My recommendation is to do lots of research and VERY carefully select your parts and who machines the block.  By the way I believe it takes more hours and more money to rebuild it right than what is typically predicted.

That's just my worthless opinion. :gap:

Gnarls.

That’s the problem....finding someone you trust to build an engine with all of those expensive parts you paid for.  I don’t know of anyone.  We just have the run of the mill basic engine shops, none are that big into Toyota’s.  I always end up being most pleased with my own work, but my engine building knowledge is lacking.  I just don’t have the knowledge and experience needed to do a great engine build.

Until then I’m going to keep learning, keep planning, and working on this old truck a little at a time. My truck needs a lot of things done to it
‘82 Toyota RN38, mostly stock

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #49 on: Oct 16, 2020, 07:06:00 AM »
... My truck needs a lot of things done to it

Hey G....

Keep the faith...

There are DIYers who have successfully rebuilt a 22.  But… reading 1000s of posts on these forums over the past 20 years, too many of them have complained of premature failure issues after they solved all the “It won’t start” issues.

A few have been successful like Toybrota’s:

https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=102404.0

Rebuilding a 22 to go 200K or 300K miles is not nuclear physics, but it should include blueprinting:

"Engine blueprinting is a standard procedure used by engine builders to obtain maximum power and to ensure the longest possible engine life and reliability. It also requires that engine builders be more disciplined, following a list of checks and measurements that will – if done properly – decrease the chance of an engine failure due to improper clearances or assembly error."

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/11/engine-blueprinting-


and very very careful measuring.  There are some basic skills and experience required, like torque specs and nut and bolt tightening, and gasket/sealer application.  Prepping and cleanliness is critical.  And of course… the tools, space, time, and money. Taking your time and being patient is critical. Rushing a rebuild on an engine you want to go 200k or 300k miles is a foolish. 

There is a reason it takes Jim at 22RE Performance 40 hours to rebuild an engine that should go 200K or 300K miles.

For a BOLT-ON modification, I believe the DT head and exhaust is the best bang for the buck to increase power on a healthy stock engine.  For a BOLT-IN modification, swapping a mid-range torquey cam is also the best bang for the buck.  With an estimated $1000 to $1200 performance mod to quickly and simply gain 10 or 15 ft. lbs of torque and an extra 8 to 10 HP is worth it.

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Oct 16, 2020, 07:20:02 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #50 on: Oct 16, 2020, 01:19:11 PM »
Sirdeuce, what’s your thoughts on those 3 cam profiles?  The 391 is pretty interesting.  It’s a lot of cam compared to the two Schneider’s I was intrigued by. I wonder how it would perform in the carb’d engine

The lift on the 391 requires some modification and springs to get that high. For more torque and mileage the 94 would most likely be better for your set up. My thoughts on better mileage and streetability for you would start with gears. try 4.56 gears with 31"/32" tires, 4.10 is a bit tall for 31s, same set I have in my 4Runner. As for camming the engine for better torque and economy? I don't care what they say about drop in cams, without supporting mods it's mostly a waste of time. Consider the mods needed to get the most out of your cam. Good valve grind and port work to complement the chosen cam profile with exhaust and intake mods can get you where you want to be, but it all needs to be done right.
For better mileage build the engine to operate at or close to the factory power curve. Work on increasing the intake port velocities at low lift. don't polish the ports. Remove any short radius turns in the port and remove any sharp protrusions in the ports. deburr and polish combustion chambers.
So basically, very mild work on the head and very mild cam. Increase your compression to a tad under 9.5 to 1 for 87 octane fuel and up to 9.7 to 1 for 89 octane. 10 to 1 for premium. You can tune the engine for higher comp rates with the lower octane fuel, but the low comp is easier. either tune the stock carb properly (difficult) or get the Webber and tune that (easier). For mileage the dual plane offy manifold would be better. Doug Thorley tri-y headers are my choice for mileage.
Long story short, just a cam ain't gonna do it.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #51 on: Oct 17, 2020, 06:31:12 AM »

Long story short, just a cam ain't gonna do it.

I agree with sirdeuce’s commentary.

I’ll add…  It’s well stated by the expert Toyota engine builders, that the head and port flow is a key to unlocking power in stock 22s.  A Stage 2 performance head from 22RE Performance is $1,050 and 4 weeks ARO. Without a flow bench and years of experience porting and polishing a head, it’s not something I would try on my own.  My new stock head from my local head shop was $400.  What would I get in torque for an extra $650?

Swapping both ring & pinions starts around $400 if you install them yourself.  A quality camshaft is around $250.  A Doug Thorley header is about $500.  If you have an exhaust shop do your larger exhaust system with a turbo muffler it’s about $500.

What’s my point?… I look at cost per increase in torque (bang for my buck).  On my 1st 1986 22RE and current 1986 22RE the DT header and larger exhaust was very noticeable. On my 22R, after installing the DT header and 2” exhaust with a turbo muffler, it was very noticeable. That standard cab only weighed 3200 lbs. Then when I did the Double Gnarly air filter mod (stacked 2 stock air filters, extended the carb bolt and air tube), that was surprisingly very noticeable, especially at freeway speed and 80 MPH.

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Oct 17, 2020, 06:39:26 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #52 on: Oct 18, 2020, 05:15:29 AM »
Increasing power in the legendary “underpowered” early Toy pickups and 4Runners has been the most discussed topic on any 4-wheel drive forum that I’ve been on. :yesnod:

At the end of the day it is still the most reliable and capable 4-wheel drive vehicle ever manufactured… not a Turbo Supra. :thumbs:

Gnarls. :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #53 on: Oct 18, 2020, 09:55:53 AM »
I did the "stacked" filter bit too, made a lot of difference! I took it a step further though, I topped that with a K&N filter top. Fit wasn't perfect, but it did the job. Basically a surround filter.

Port work you can do yourself is a simple clean up just inside the seats. Getting rid of the sharp angles make a noticeable difference. Compliments a good valve grind.

A though on camshafts for economy here. Increasing the duration changes the power curve. Longer duration moves the torque peak higher in the revs which can make your cruising RPM less fuel efficient. Same can cause the cruising RPM emissions to increase. Look for a cam that has characteristics that compliment your general use. If your cam has a torque peak at 2700rpm and your tires and gears have your cruising RPM at 2700 then you have a match! Even if your tire/gear combo cruises at 2700 and the torque peak is a little below that it works out fine. BUut, when the torque peak gets higher in the revs than your cruise RPM you have to give more pedal to maintain that RPM, since the torque is lower there.  Make sense? 
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #54 on: Oct 18, 2020, 03:07:50 PM »
Again sirdeuce is right on….

At what MPH do you want the power increased?

For me it is at highway speeds – 60 to 80 MPH.

Matching your peak torque with a carefully selected cam profile AND tires AND R&Ps would be getting the most out of power and fuel economy.

My target peak torque for a cam profile is 3200 RPMs.

In 5th gear, my 4.56 R&Ps, 30” tires my cruising speed MPH at RPM is :
70 – 2860
75 -  3064
80 -  3269
60 – 3064 (4 th gear)
55 – 2809 (4 th gear)

So I can be in 5th gear and with optimal torque for power and fuel economy.

If I have to shift down into 4th gear when climbing a long steep grade, I still have the torque where I need it.

My target torque range at RPMs is between 2800 and 3200 because that’s 90% of my driving where the stock 22RE does not have the power at freeway cruising speeds.

If you look at the attached spreadsheet there are only two cams that produced the highest numbers in the RPM range…   2800 to 3200 RPMs.

The Schneider 17503.D216-216.L410-410.112LC-EFI and THE most surprising cam I compared….. THE TOYOTA FACTORY STOCK CAMSHAFT!! :yikes:

The Schneider cam pulls hard from 3500 RPMs all the way to 5500 RPMs!!

Those little Japanese Toyota auto engineers were VERY smart and must have done some serious testing.

Gnarls.
      
« Last Edit: Oct 18, 2020, 03:26:55 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #55 on: Oct 23, 2020, 11:43:58 AM »
Automaker engineers have 2 things most aftermarket and home tuners don't have,

                                  TIME and MONEY!

They better get it right!
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #56 on: Oct 29, 2020, 07:12:15 PM »
I'm enjoying reading this thread as my '82 needs a rebuild.  It's carbureted and I'm told the heads are not available any more which has me concerned because the timing is off.  I'm told these earlier heads aren't as efficient as the '85 and newer. Any tips on making them flow well?  My machinist tells me larger valves with ported/polished heads lose some low end grunt but help the high rpm side of things. The previous owner dropped an '81 motor in it that had been rebuilt and it leaks terribly and has 75 lbs of compression at best so a drinker too. The cam lobes are worn and I'm considering sending it off to a regrinder for probably a 250 type grind. I like slightly bigger cams.  It's always worked well for me.  I have a 2" exhaust to put on it. I like the stock carb. If I take it apart to rebuild it and the head is bad then I have to find a motor. Would like to know what kits out there supply high quality Japanese or American parts.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #57 on: Nov 11, 2020, 04:54:36 PM »
With oversize valves and proper port work the low end grunt can get BETTER! If the work done is for all out racing and targets top end you will lose in the bottom. Find someone that knows the difference.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #58 on: Nov 12, 2020, 04:23:14 AM »
With oversize valves and proper port work the low end grunt can get BETTER! If the work done is for all out racing and targets top end you will lose in the bottom. Find someone that knows the difference.

Flow testing is really the only way to calculate max power.  Flow testing should be done as a "system", including intake manifold, cylinder head, cam, valves, and exhaust.  Valves and cam profile are critical to controlling air velocity.

Bigger CFM and velocity is the goal, but knowing where, when, and how to control it is the key.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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