LCE Performance would be the other, but like 22re Performance, they aren't conservatively priced.

With you having the ability to pull it down and diagnose what failed, why not rebuild it yourself?

I rebuilt my 22R motor for ~$1000. Roughly 800 for all machine work, hot tank, bore, hone, head assembly, freeze plugs/bearings/pistons etc were included. The remaining 200 were assembly costs, hoses, fluids, miscellaneous bolts and nuts, silicon etc. The most I had gotten into an engine before this was to change rod bearings from underneath (don’t recommend) and I got the motor installed and running in 3 days with very minimal help. There were some hiccups despite taking my sweet time assembling it all, maybe three weeks off and on when I had time after work. The process was very rewarding and my truck is way too ugly to spend that amount of dough on a professionally done long block. Maybe my tone will change in a thousand miles when my DNJ head gasket decides to give up Honestly the biggest headaches were spending money and mating the engine and trans back together. Everything else was cake, just follow the FSM or Haynes. All that to say I think you could build a stout engine, maybe spend more than I did on gaskets, maintain a friendly budget, and get to say you were the one that did it. But hey, it ain’t my rig 

There's typically 4 aspects to these discussions....

Rebuild Cost:

A rebuild can be done for a wide range of actual out-of-pocket costs.

If the objective is to rebuild an engine that is to last for 200K or 300K miles, or more, then blueprinting is the only way to know from the start that your objective becomes a reality.

I believe a successful rebuild has 3 parts:  The machine work on the block and head is absolutely critical.  After that matching the selection of quality parts.  And then the measurement and assembly.

Rebuild Quality:

What does a blueprinted 22RE cost - https://22reperformance.com/stage-25-rebuilt-engine  And how many years of experience does it take?  How much does it cost to equip a shop with the quality tools and testing instruments?

Rebuild Time:

Why does it take 32 weeks to get an engine build like that?  I’d make a guess that it takes Jim about 40+ man hours to build that long block.  That number probably does not include the man hours of ordering parts, doing quality control and inspection, and managing the overhead of the business end of that rebuild.

There no way I could build this long block for $3,795 assuming no core.  And I doubt there are very many expert engine builders out there than can.

Rebuild Result:

If that engine (bottom and top end) goes 200,000 miles problem free at 20,000 mile a year average mileage driven, that’s 10 years.

That would be phenomenal for me.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls. 

... Maybe my tone will change in a thousand miles when my DNJ head gasket decides to give up ...

Good luck with your DNJ head gasket! 

Gnarls.

Thanks for all the input guys, The truck has alot of sentimental value to me, I doing more of a restore than a build. granted I intend and giving a few choice upgrades to make it a more efficient mild adventure vehicle, but mostly its a restore project. As much as I would like a 22re performance built engine, the wait time is too long, and LC engr. is out of my price range. I already rescued the truck after sitting for six years, and I don't want to leave it sitting for another 8 months on top of the 8 months it already sat after I discovered the rod knock.
On that note, I talked with Nick at Yota1 performance, and got standards on there builds.
"Non OEM parts” pistons are Sealed Power with Teflon skirts, Rings are Hastings chromoly, Bearings are King, timing cover is an ITM, Cylinder head is an import made for us and uses Our seats and guides ( SBI ) This casting company makes all of our cylinder heads for several different engines and has done so for almost 10 years. Everything else used in the engine OEM, Gaskets, seals, timing set, oil pump and water pump. As for the tolerances, pistons to wall is .0014- .0016, rods and mains are .0012 - .0016 and all clearances are documented on the build sheet that you get a copy of, it also lists The RA finish of the block deck, head surface,all cylinders as well as lots of other info on the build. For the longevity of our engines, that’s an ongoing experiment, we have nearly 10,000 engines in service currently with a very good track record, many of them well Beyond the 200k mile mark and very few failures. "
Its sounds good too me and the price is right, not suspicious cheap but not too expensive. 1 year unlimited mile warranty and good customer service.
I'm going to give them a chance.

Check out DOA engines. My friend had one from them and he liked it.

Hey FjordWarrden,

That sounds like you are giving them a "chance" to fail, or you are feeing a risk factor.

I would not have a rebuild done without the block being sonic tested and magnafluxed.  It is interesting that LCE, 22RE Performance, and Yota1 do not mention those tests.

That may or many not be what is done to a 30 to 40 year old block, but I’d feel better knowing the block is healthy enough for another 10 years.

I’m surprised and somewhat suspicious that if they have built 10,000 engines and why only a few reviews?

Their prices are very similar to 22RE Performance when looking at comparable parts, so I would not see price as a factor for my choice.

What is their quoted delivery time?

Gnarls.

This is a quote from the Yota1 website regarding inspecting the block.
 "We start with an original Toyota block, crankshaft and rod castings, (not "new" Chinese counterfeit Junk) remove all oil and water plugs. Then it's off to the hot tank for the night, tomorrow morning we will remove the block from the tank, steam clean it, hand brush the oil galleys then clean it again! From there it's off to the inspection station to get magnafluxed, ultrasonic test cylinder wall thickness, check for proper deck height, hone and check main line, inspect all bolt holes, and tons more, well we made it this far so let's bore the cylinders then we can finally decide if we can build this block or if it's off to the scrap bin. "

Their quoted delivery time is 5-6 days. All work is done in house.

As for my "giving them a chance" your right there is a little doubt there, but not much. I always have doubts when ever I give someone a lot of money for a product I have never tested before. And even then consistency is always questionable now a days.

In a basically stock 22RE daily driver, will balancing make a difference in performance or longevity?…. Probably not.  Will it reduce potential mismatched parts vibrations, yes.

If they remove metal from the re-used rods, then balancing the rods might be worth it.

Balancing the flywheel, harmonic balancer, and crankshaft can be done.

My shop charged me $95 to balance the crank and flywheel and pressure plate.

New pistons from a quality manufacturer will most likely already be balanced within their spec.

Gasket matching to the ports should be automatic for any rebuild.

I’m interested in the 230 cam specs.  Can you post those specs? 

I would also forgo the powder coating.

Gnarls.

Here are the particulars to the stage 1 cam

"This cam is the perfect for a stage 1 22RE EFI crawler build / 4x4 truck or 4runner , makes power from 1500-5500 RPM, great cam for a heavy vehicle, low to mid range torque and maintains smooth idle. All of our cams are new and do not require a core charge.

This is a drop in replacement cam, does not require intake or exhaust mods, shorter guides, special valve seals or dual springs.

WE HIGHLY RECOMMEND REPLACING ALL ROCKER ARMS WHEN REPLACING THE CAM! WE CANNOT WARRANTY ANY CAM DAMAGE IF NEW ROCKER ARMS OR A REBUILT ROCKER ASSEMBLY IS NOT PURCHASED WITH THE CAM.

Valve adjustment / lash  .006 intake (cold) and .008 exhaust (cold)

LSA                            114

Compression range    9:1 - 10:1

RPM range                 1500-5500

Red line                      6000

Gross lift Intake          .420

Gross lift exhaust       .438

Adv. duration Int.         252

Adv. duration Exh.       260

Int. duration @ .050    204

Ext duration @.050     210

Hey F..

Using a 22RE factory stock engine..

I did a quick comparison with those specs and that cam does produce a 1 lb. average increase in torque and about 3 peak HP increase calculated from 1800 thru 5400 RPMs.

With an LSA of 114, I assume the Centerline degrees (ATDC) for the Intake and the Centerline degrees (BTDC) for the Exhaust are the same?

I can do a detailed RPM breakdown, and compare those to my other cams, but it takes me awhile to run calculations.


Gnarls.

Gnarly..

Wow thats is very cool, where do you find the equations to run cam analysis? I fear I don't know hardly enough about cam shafts to answer your questions.
It seems like minimal gains for the money though. I wonder what are the disadvantages of  switching cams from stock? If more usable power can be gained through changing the cam timing and duration, why didn't Toyota do it in the first place?
I really want to try and build the best 22re I can, but I wonder, didn't Toyota do that in the first place?

Hi F…

I can get into a deep discussion about the camshafts for our 22RE/R engines, but this is just my experience since owning my first Toyota truck in 1986.  I have very little actual experience with camshafts a 22.  My original intent was to build a basically stock engine, then test 2 or 3 camshafts on a chassis dyno, but I have not been able to meet my goal since 2002.

It is my opinion that the camshaft in any engine is one of the most mysterious and often misunderstood as to how and why it works.

Valve events is one of the most important functions in the internal combustion engine.

Since about 1999 I have spent 1000s of hours doing mock pulls on almost every camshaft that has been publicly offered for the early Toyota engines. My search was for more TORQUE  in the 2500 to 3500 RPM range because that is where I need more power during 95% of my drive time and style.  Increasing HP at 5,500 RPMs was not my interest, I don’t race my truck in the Baja 500.

I use a software package published by the very respected automotive company - Performance Trends – Engine Analyzer.  It is a “desktop dyno”.  How accurate is it?  That is a matter of opinion. Many of the top engine builders in the country use it.  The performance data it produces on a cam profile may not be what a SuperFlo 902 engine dyno produces.

http://performancetrends.com/what_our_users_say.htm

The cam profiles that work well or improve power in 22R do not always do the same for 22RE.  Mamma ECU is picky about what her little engine is doing.  In my testing and many discussions with cam manufacturers, and guys who have installed aftermarket cams, overlap and dynamic compression may be a factor in how the ECU can accept the changes caused by the cam profile. 

There is a lot more to a cam profile than just lift and duration!

Interestingly, Yota1’s 230 cam has the tightest valve lash I’ve seen on any 22 cam.  It also has the lowest degrees of valve overlap.

When changing cams, the exhaust and intake systems become an important modification consideration.  Valve events basically change flow.  Our engines are basically a big air pump, so more flow usually means more power.  One neat thing about a cam is it can change WHERE the torque and peak HP appears in the RPM range.

There seems be very little actual chassis or engine dyno tests or comparison data available on cam profiles for the 20/22 engines…. at least my research has found very little.  I believe that for a reasonably low-cost “bolt-in” modification, the cam is an excellent option.  For a “bolt-on” modification, the header on a 22 can produce a nice gain in torque and HP.

Some people argue that the performance gain with a camshaft change in 22 is not worth it.  In my 85 22R shortbed, weighing 3100 lbs., even a couple pounds of torque increase was very noticeable, especially at 75 MPH in 5th gear.

Toyota designed and built the early engine for longevity and to meet strict EPA emissions requirements.  Typically in these engines designed in the 70s and 80s,  if you increase HP you consume more fuel, so gas mileage was also a factor.

Gnarls.

SO what does that translate to in terms of engine performance and longevity? Good cam? Bad cam? Unknown?

excellent information!By the way I can't thank you enough for sharing.

F..

Good question.

I’m a long way from a cam engineer, so I won’t speculate on how that cam will work in their engines.  I suspect that if Yota1 is claiming to have rebuilt 10,000 engines, they know what camshaft profile works the best for their rebuilts.

What I can tell you is what I personally experienced and what another guy who is also running the same cam, experienced.  The engnbldr 261C Crawler cam spec’d the valve lash at 007” and 009”.  That was the tightest valve lash I had seen.  When the valve lash is tightened, the cam “looks bigger”, increasing top end power.  When the valve lash is loosened, it improves the lower RPM torque numbers.  In all 3 of my 22s, I prefer a slightly tighter than factory spec of 8 & 12 to quiet the rocker tick.

In my recent 22RE rebuilt, the 261 Crawler cam’s tight lash *appears* to have resulted in the exhaust valves going tight in a short period of time.  The guy that is running the same cam experienced the same thing.  That made a noticeably rough idle.  And, also created a potential for burning the exhaust valves.

I also spoke to the man who ground the cams for engnbldr, he said he thought the valve lash on the 261C cam was spec’d a little tight by Ted at engnbldr to get a little more top end.

The other spec in that cam profile is the overlap.  The overlap may be too much for the 22RE ECU to compensate for.  I’ve read where guys running the 261C cam and have no problems in a 22RE.  That cam in one of guys I spoke to years ago said it caused a lean-fire condition in his 22RE, and he had tried 3 or 4 different cam profiles in that engine.  That cam should work well in carb’d engine.

With that tight valve lash spec’d in Yota1’s 230 cam, I’d be watching the valve lash very carefully!

Just from my research and comparisons, I think there are other cam profiles that show way more torque and HP gains.

So, longevity.... I don't know what the wear factor is for any given camshaft based upon it's profile.  Cam lobes do go flat prematurely, but most likely caused by lack of lubrication.  A quality camshaft will probably be heat treated (gas nitrided?)

I would talk to Yota1 and asked how they got to that profile for stock 22RE.

Gnarls.

Thanks again Gnarls, I will take your advice and talk with Yota1. I am wondering, if they (yota1) claims to have built 10,000 enignes, how come I can't find anyone who has one?!

Another comment on cam profiles for the 22s….

I used the word mysterious in describing camshafts because it is interesting to me that every single manufacturer or aftermarket supplier of Toyota cams publishes a different profile or cam specs for the same engine.  I have looked at the cam specs for Toyota, CompCam, Crane, Schneider, Crower, Isky, Web, TRD, Erson, Clevite, Laser, Delta, NWOR, LC Engineering, DOA, 22RE Performance, TRC, Engnbldr, Redline, and now Yota1.

They all advertise a different cam profile and spec.  Typically, in marketing-hype fashion, they all claim their cam to be the best.

More Toyota camshaft mystery..... I don't recall ever reading about a direct comparison dyno test between Toyota 22 camshafts.

However, I have read dyno test comparisons with Chevy engines for example.  https://www.hotrod.com/articles/camshaft-test-review-comparison/


Gnarls.

That is mysterious indeed! It seems strange that with so many 22re engines out there that nobody has done a direct comparison dyno test. It sounds like we as a community should get together and do such a test.

At some point, just slam a 3rz in and go. The 22r is just not worth putting money into. This from a guy who supercharged a 22re...