Topic: 91 Toyota 22re Valve Question

[Grimmjow]

I have read through posts here and the yota forum for fyi. I have a 91 22re pickup, just did a complete rebuild and everything is brand new except block and intake manifold. I followed the factory recommendations from my Chilton's manual on correct valve lash. It states to bring engine to operating temp and adjust intake at .008 and exhaust at .012. I have correctly adjusted it and everything was completed to spec. It is noisy, and I know solid lift engines make a little noise but this is almost diesel sounding lol. Would you guys recommend adjusting cold at 7 11? Or 6 10. Thanks in advance

[redneckcustoms13]

I understand your frustration. Give it a try at 8 and 10 cold. Once warmed it should quiet down. There may be many people who will disagree with me on that. Personally I haven't had any trouble with it and have had quite a few of them.

[gnob]

I do 7,11 cold.

[Grimmjow [OP]]

Thank you for the suggestions. It's not a hard job imo but it is made much easier if you can get some sage advice before you start.   

[Snowtoy]

I do 7/11 cold as well.  You might replace the valve tappets if the noise returns.

[Grimmjow [OP]]

I do 7/11 cold as well.  You might replace the valve tappets if the noise returns.

On the tappets your referring to just the threaded bolt section that makes contact with the valve head correct? I considered just buying new rocker sets but If I take the rocker assembly out I will have to re torque the head again so I will have to buy new bolts and head gasket again as well. So the idea of just the tappers is very interesting to me. Thanks

[𝓣𝓞𝓨𝓞𝓣𝓐]

On the tappets your referring to just the threaded bolt section that makes contact with the valve head correct? I considered just buying new rocker sets but If I take the rocker assembly out I will have to re torque the head again so I will have to buy new bolts and head gasket again as well. So the idea of just the tappers is very interesting to me. Thanks

Marlin himself does not buy new bolts, and if you rebuilt it with an aftermarket head gasket, you may as well replace it with an OEM gasket. Either way, to change the tappets or rockers (same thing), you have to pull the 'towers' off, because the rockers slide over the rocker shafts and there's no way to replace them without pulling it off. Replacing the adjuster screws won't do anything.

The 20-22R head bolts are not torque to yield, and Toyota does not advise replacement evertime the head is removed.
I have reused head bolts for years unless they are rusted, and then I replace them with used ones!
In todays world of fancy engines, almost ever engine uses torque to yield headbolts
The machine shop was playing it safe when they told you to replace them. Look them over carefully, and if they look good, you know what I would do.

[Snowtoy]

Yes, just the bolt that you adjust to set the valve lash.  The theory is that due to how the tappet wears, it will slowly walk back to that wore spot, causing the lash to be greater, making the tap louder.

[𝓣𝓞𝓨𝓞𝓣𝓐]

just did a complete rebuild and everything is brand new except block and intake manifold.

Can you elaborate on this? I think it is a much needed data point. I assume new head with new valves and an old rocker assembly? If so, Snowtoy could be spot on. I was thinking new everything but you kept the old rocker and cam combo

[Gnarly4X]

I have read through posts here and the yota forum for fyi. I have a 91 22re pickup, just did a complete rebuild and everything is brand new except block and intake manifold. I followed the factory recommendations from my Chilton's manual on correct valve lash. It states to bring engine to operating temp and adjust intake at .008 and exhaust at .012. I have correctly adjusted it and everything was completed to spec. It is noisy, and I know solid lift engines make a little noise but this is almost diesel sounding lol. Would you guys recommend adjusting cold at 7 11? Or 6 10. Thanks in advance

I always have lots of questions when I read posts like this.

It’s like you expect the readers to come up with some magic simple answer to your simple question.

There are a number of sounds that the 22s make.  Some sounds are obvious and their source can be isolated.  Some sounds can fool you because they sound similar.  Are you sure the noise is caused by valve lash?

Trying determine “noise” from a textual post in an internet forum is like sniffing flowers through your butt.

What is “It is noisy, and I know solid lift engines make a little noise but this is almost diesel sounding lol.”

Did YOU rebuild this engine?

What are the specs of the rebuild?

What camshaft was installed?

How many times have you adjusted the valve lash on a 22RE?

Did you adjust the valve lash on this engine before you rebuilt it?

There are 1000’s of posts on “valve lash”…. Some of them are useless.

Here’s a clip from 22RE Performance.  Jim probably wrote this and, in my opinion, probably knows more about the 22RE engine than most anyone on this planet.

“Check the valve adjustment and keep an eye out for any that are too tight. We recommend checking valve adjustment every 7.5k to 10k miles. I know the manual says to adjust them with the engine “hot”, but we’ve found the adjustment procedure to give more consistent results and turn out more accurate when done COLD. Cold means that you can’t feel any heat when you lay your hand on the engine. We also recommend going a hair tighter than the factory says too. .007” on the intake and .011” on the exhaust side. If it’s your first time adjusting valves, TAKE YOUR TIME AND TRIPLE CHECK YOUR WORK. It’s not rocket surgery, but if it’s not done correctly, things can get ugly quick.”

Can you explain exactly HOW you adjusted the lash?

A valid answer to your question requires more information.  Otherwise, at least for me, I may be pulling stuff out of my anal sphincter.  A fairly common thread started like this goes on for about a 1 week or 2 with umpteen posts before some sort of conclusion is found.

If you have a real concern about “noise”, this is a very handy inexpensive tool that will help locate the source.

https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-52750-Stethoscope-Kit/dp/B0015DLMOO/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1EPW3UFANNKML&keywords=engine+stethoscope&qid=1564453109&s=gateway&sprefix=engine+steth%2Caps%2C528&sr=8-2


Getting a 22R or 22RE engine to a “balanced” rocker and valve lash sound can take some time, multiple attempts, and practiced measurements.

Of course that's just my opinion - it may be full of pomp 'n stink. 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X]

"On the tappets your referring to just the threaded bolt section that makes contact with the valve head correct? I considered just buying new rocker sets but If I take the rocker assembly out I will have to re torque the head again so I will have to buy new bolts and head gasket again as well. So the idea of just the tappers is very interesting to me. Thanks "

If you remove the rocker rack, you WILL have to re-torque the head, BUT if you are very careful, and follow the *right* procedure you will NOT have to remove the head, replace a head gasket, or use new head bolts.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I understand your frustration. Give it a try at 8 and 10 cold. Once warmed it should quiet down. There may be many people who will disagree with me on that. Personally I haven't had any trouble with it and have had quite a few of them.

red......  knows his stuff and has lots of experience.... WAY more than me.  Maybe he forget the stock specs  8/12.

However..... in my limited experience, I'd be overly concerned about going that tight on the exhaust valve of a newly rebuilt engine with a factory cam spec.  The seat time on an exhaust valve needs to be long enough to absorb the heat from the valve face.

Just my thinking.

Gnarls.

[Grimmjow [OP]]

Thanks for all the help guys. Yes I did use the original rocker assembly. The noise is definitely valve lash noise. I will try the above recommended settings with a cold engine and see what happens. If it's still noisy I will replace the rocker arm assembly. And I used a plain ole steel face OEM head gasket. Thanks again.

[Grimmjow [OP]]

Also for Gnarls, I did not rebuild the engine myself. I used a certified mechanic who had good references and he was an honest guy. The pistons are 30 over factory type pistons. The camshaft and all other parts are factory spec. I didnt go with a modified camshaft profile or higher compression pistons. I use it as a dd so didnt want a hot rod lol. I do take it fishing some though and the 4x4 is nice for that.

[Gnarly4X]

Also for Gnarls, I did not rebuild the engine myself. I used a certified mechanic who had good references and he was an honest guy. The pistons are 30 over factory type pistons. The camshaft and all other parts are factory spec. I didnt go with a modified camshaft profile or higher compression pistons. I use it as a dd so didnt want a hot rod lol. I do take it fishing some though and the 4x4 is nice for that.

10-4. 

Getting my 22s to hear balanced rocker tick required several check and adjustments with the feeler gauge.  When I could detect one or more rockers that sounded a little louder, I just adjusted the lash a .001" tighter.  Sometimes I'd check and adjust them 3 times before I was satisfied. 

Please let us know what you discover after you make your cold adjustments. 

Gnarls. 

[emsvitil]

The stock valve adjustment does 4 valves at a time.  (2 adjustments)

You may want to try 4 adjustments (2 valves per adjustment) were you do each cylinder individually at TDC when both valves are closed.

[Gnarly4X]

The stock valve adjustment does 4 valves at a time.  (2 adjustments)

You may want to try 4 adjustments (2 valves per adjustment) were you do each cylinder individually at TDC when both valves are closed.

Hmmmm.... I'm not sure what that will do and why?

Gnarls. 

[emsvitil]

Depends on the quality and/or duration of cam.

It's possible with the stock adjustment procedure that you might be measuring the 'takeup' ramp on cylinders 2&3 rather than the base circle.

[Gnarly4X]

Depends on the quality and/or duration of cam.

It's possible with the stock adjustment procedure that you might be measuring the 'takeup' ramp on cylinders 2&3 rather than the base circle.

Oh.... OK.  Yes.... it seems the common or recommended way to adjust the valve lash is with the rocker pad on the heel of the base circle.  Using the method in the FSM with stock cam is fine.  Using the FSM method of adjustment with an aftermarket cam is it possible the rocker pad could be sitting at the edge of a ramp that would affect the actual lash setting. 

Here's a clip from the discussion in my thread:
"
7
Engine / Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Message by andykrow on Oct 29, 2017, 01:11:37 PM »
Welp, I did my valve lash today, and Gnarly, you get a gold star! 

As a reminder this is a new engnbldr Street RV head with a new 261C cam. Reused the rockers as they were in perfect shape and just got polished up a bit.

All exhaust valves and two of the intake valves were tight by 001. It should be no surprise that the 1 and 4 intakes were at spec, considering they will actually be a bit loose if the base circle technique is not used (which i doubt it was.)

Now, for the really surprising part, after I got everything to spec (used base circle on 1 and 4 intake) and buttoned her back up, my idle RPM was sitting at 1350. That's a good 500 higher than it was set before. Taking her for a test drive I am feeling noticeably more low end power, and seemingly more midrange judging from a couple hills I pulled. She kinda wants to jump off the line now. Above 3000 seems to be about the same (which is to say, awesome  ) Will need to road test a bit more to confirm.

Now, another surprise, I can get the idle down to 750 - where it should be - without the rough shaking that was happening before. I felt before that I was getting a miss down that low so I set the idle to 850 or 900 to smooth it out. That is no longer necessary. The idle sounds a lot smoother too, whereas before there was sort of a "chug" happening, which, though it sounded cool, is not normal for a 22re in my experience.

So, my feeling here is 001 off on the lash is probably not enough to burn a valve and isn't dangerous (Although I guess I really have nothing to back that up...). Clearly however, there are massive performance differences to be had with this cam. I wonder how much of the hate for this cam could be resolved with a very precise lash setting.

Other note, the lobes definitely do not line up perfectly with the rocker pads. All of the pads had complete contact - none were going past the edge of the lobes - but several were pretty close to the edge. I do not have a stocker to look at right now so I am not sure if they are supposed to be perfectly centered? In any case I can't see it being a problem. My cam lobes seem to be in perfect shape, no scoring or discoloration or anything. I guess I got the break-in correct.

My machinist who built the motor never said anything about the lobes, and he builds a lot of 22res, so I wonder if they are just never really centered and it isn't a problem."

If you search "base circle" you will find the posts.

So the bottomline is... the valve lash is very important, and may take several adjustments and checks to get it where you want it.

Gnarls.

[Grimmjow [OP]]

I want to thank everyone for their advice, it helped me hammer it out. I try to follow factory recommended specs, but over the years I have learned that is just a base line really. This little engine is the same way and I was able to figure that out with your help. I ended up at .006 on 2 intake valves and .007 on the remaining 2. 3 exhaust valves were happy at .011 and 1 at .010. Now she sounds like a sewing machine. I did those adjustments cold and I started out at 8-12 then 7-11 and then just trying to get each 1 just right after that. I would venture to say I adjusted the valves 8-9 times before I got it right. And after the 2nd time it was super easy, has to be the easy valve cover I have worked under besides a sbc. Thanks again everyone, and thanks Gnarls for your in depth discussion.

[Grimmjow [OP]]

Since I already have this post rolling, should I have went with a "torker" cam or something of the like since I do plan on going to bigger tires in the near future? I do not think a cam swap would be hard at all with this engine. Thanks

[Gnarly4X]

... should I have went with a "torker" cam...

Good question and an interesting discussion.

The answer(s) depends on where in the RPM range you want to increase the power.

I’ve always wanted more torque in the 2500 to 3500 RPM range because that is where 90% of my drive time is.  Freeway speeds is where the lack of power – torque at 3,000 RPMs in 5th gear - is most noticeable for my driving.

The Toyota factory stock cam is an excellent profile for general and typical driving.

In my experience and research, there are aftermarket cam profiles that will produce more torque or higher RPMs.  Getting the most out of a cam change should also include looking at “flow”, including air intake, fuel delivery, exhaust, and possibly ignition timing.

Changing a camshaft in a 22 can be done without removing the head.  It’s done all the time with race-prepped engines – with ARP studs.

As an example, going from 31’s to 33’s without changing the ring and pinion will move the engine torque numbers in the RPM range for each transmission gear, and will make the truck a little sluggish.  Like Snowtoy advocates all time, swapping diff gears should be considered.

In my 3200 lbs, 96 HP, 85 Standard Cab, slight increases in torque was very noticeable.  So increasing 5 to 10 lbs of torque at 3,000 will most likely be a very noticeable in your butt-dyno.

Choosing an aftermarket cam can be challenging for 22RE and may not produce the increase that a cam swap will do for 22R.

The good news is there are some excellent aftermarket cams out there. 

Gnarls. 

[emsvitil]

You might consider a adjustable timing gear to move the power curve around rather than a cam change.....

[sirdeuce]

Hmmmm. I remember an issue I had like this. Make sure the timing marks on the balancer are true. If the cam isn't at the proper orientation your clearances will be wrong as you are setting lash on the lead or follow of TDC, being a few thousandths off either way. I used a degree wheel to find true TDC and BDC, The balancer had slipped 12 degrees. May or may not be your issue, but it's worth a looksee. Could also be the cam was ground a few degrees off. It happens.

[Gnarly4X]

Changing cam timing in a 22RE with a factory cam is not going to show much gain.

1 to 2 degrees advance will get you a little more torque from off idle to about 2600, and drop about 1 peak HP.
 
1 to 2 degrees retard you will lose a 1 lb. of torque to about 2600, and gain 1 lb. more torque and 1 HP at 4800

If your objective is to gain power, you’d gain more power – torque and HP – if you bought a free-flow cat and free-flow muffler.  An Adjustable Cam Gear is about $100 delivered.  A cat and muffler is less than $100.00.

As a “bolt-in” power gain, if you spent $200 on the right camshaft, you’d most likely gain 3 to 5 lbs of torque and 4 to 8 HP……. Very noticeable.

Gnarls.

[Grimmjow [OP]]

Well Gnarls the truck already has a hedman full length header and 2.25" exhaust exiting through a glass pack of some kind. I absolutely hate it, it's so loud. I was thinking of at least going to a dyno max super turbo or magna flow muffler. Possibly even putting a stock exhaust manifold back on the truck as well.

[Gnarly4X]

Well Gnarls the truck already has a hedman full length header and 2.25" exhaust exiting through a glass pack of some kind. I absolutely hate it, it's so loud. I was thinking of at least going to a dyno max super turbo or magna flow muffler. Possibly even putting a stock exhaust manifold back on the truck as well.

Hey G…

With an opened exhaust on a 22RE you have to be careful.  I have experienced it myself and one of my friends experienced as well.  The 22RE seems to be a little sensitive to too big of exhaust system.  Too big and the bottom end torque really suffers.  I know “back pressure” when discussing exhaust is a debatable word, but it seems that if the velocity is decreased too much it somehow decreases low RPM torque.  That's just my speculation... I'm a long ways from an engine exhaust expert.

Currently on my 86 22RE, I have a DT header, 2.25” to stock cat that has been completely punch out, then 1.75” to a 2” stock muffler.  It sounds throaty, but not loud or rappy.

On my 85 22R Standard Cab, I ran a DT header with 2” tubing, no cat, then to Thrush Turbo muffler. It sounded throaty, but not loud or rappy.  New glass packs are notorious for that loud rappy sound after about 5,000 miles.  I prefer a mild throaty exhaust.

If I were to try a different cam in my 22RE, I’d talk to Jim at 22RE Performance.  22RE’s Mamma ECU with her little brat sensors is picky about the cam profile.

Gnarls. 

[Grimmjow [OP]]

Would I be better off putting a stock exhaust manifold back on the truck for low end grunt?

[Snowtoy]

It sounds like your exhaust system is too open, and you have lost velocity of the flow of the exhaust gasses.  An exhaust system needs a correct amount of backpressure to create the correct velocity needed for your engine to performance across all levels of its operating range.  If you don't have a catalytic converter, I would consider installing one and a turbo muffler, I run a cheap [https://www.summitracing.com/parts/big-50052flt/overview/]Flowtech Raptor Turbo[/url] muffler.  It is cheap, and has nice mellow sound when not on the throttle, no drone on the trail or when cruising down the highway.

[Lewis Hein]

Incidentally, it is useful to avoid confusing backpressure with scavenging. Scavenging is good and backpressure is bad, but the two are often confused.

https://vpexhaust.com/exhaust-back-pressure-a-myth/
https://youtu.be/jjPeP_Nn2B4

This is fact, not opinion. It may be incredibly useful