Topic: Am I at the end of 22re power upgrades or is their something else?

[Gnarly4X]

... Not that I take everything from that site as Gospel but I know anyone that posts on that particular site has to know something about what they are talking about or they will be heckled for months.....

Well.... after reading 1000's of posts and threads on many automotive forums, and actively participating in a 1/2 dozen, it is my worthless opinion that there is a lot of Bravo Sierra posted by people who think they know what they are talking about.  Experiences can vary and so do the facts.

In the words of Albert Einstein...

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Regarding LCE's power tips... all good stuff.  However, I do have an opinion on K&N air filters and I have posted a number of times in the past on the topic.  I ran K&N filters on all three of my sand rails for about 8 years.  I am very familiar with them.  I have some questions about their "high flow air filter element with a 1 million mile warranty", and the power increase they claim.  20 years ago I don't remember seeing any published information about their claims. Now, at least on their website, I can request in writing the test data that supports their claims.

If anyone is interested, I will happily elaborate on MY 8 years of experience.

Gnarls. 

[Snowtoy]

Hey Snowtoy... .where you been!!   I have missed your "input".     
Gnarls.

Busy, early long spring+cool summer+early fall has my orchards all screwed up, the plumb and pear trees were both ready for harvest at the same time, when they are usually 6-8 weeks apart.

Nothing but cool air and bugs with a snorkel.

True, but just like the human version, your engine is having to breath through a straw.

[Snowtoy]

Step 1
.....................and building a sheet metal barrier between the air intake and the engine. I have thought of also experimenting with an air scoop or several well placed holes behind the grill to force/direct outside air around the air filter.

For my 3.0 I plumbed a 3" flexible hose from below the headlight into the inner fender, seems to work well enough, not as well as w/the headlight out, but much better than before I isolated the filter from the engine bay air. 

I yanked the upper intake manifold off this last weekend and I am polishing the inside as far back as I can reach. I know this is a very small thing but looking at several upper intakes it should help in the long run by eliminating places for the nasty oil/dirt/gunk to build up. Has anyone had experience polishing a upper intake that can tell me how to get inside the individual tubes? I can get a dremmel and sand paper about an inch in and thats about all.

You likely wont be able to polish the intake runners smooth at home, but you can smooth them out some by using a flexible hone
http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/60835295?src=pla&cid=PLA-Google-PLA+-+Test&CS_003=7867724&CS_010=60835295&mkwid=j6zGcRqY

[79coyotefrg]

a snorkel is THE BEST cold air intake and even makes a ram air if going fast enough.


I dont even want to ask what a trait gear intake is 

[OTO Phil]

What about deleting the distributor?

[Gnarly4X]

What about deleting the distributor?

 

[OTO Phil]

LS1 coils, replace the harmonic balancer.. it's a whole kit I think, I'll try to find something

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[OTO Phil]

Is something like this possible?
http://youtu.be/HU6fYB54T60

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[OTO Phil]

http://www.lceperformance.com/LCE-Pro-Fuel-Injection-Kit-2-4-Cylinder-p/1063024.htm

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[epantano]

It's going to be tough to make a 22re get up a big hill without the turbo or supercharger... It's get way crazy expensive at that point. I had the same issue with shifting between 3rd and 4th anytime I was going into the mountains not matter how much I built up. Just run the 22re as it is the when it blows up get a 3rz or a 3.4 if the gas mileage isn't a concern. 

I wish I had gone the 3rz from the beginning and didn't stroker, cam and header out my 22re. So much money I dumped..  oh well it's going into my 2wd truck, once I get the 3rz dialed on the 4x4

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[Gnarly4X]

In my experience there seems to be basically 5 “power levels” for the 22s.

1 – you run it stock

2 – you add a header and 2.25” exhaust pipe with free flow muffler. – estimated increase in Tq and HP 8 to 10%

3 – you swap heads with oversize valves with a bigger or torquey cam to go with your head and exhaust, intake manifold and Weber. – estimated increase 7 to 10%

4 - you hyper-tune it and tweak it with all the other bolt on after enhancements, like electric fans, throttle body, Crane, MSD, blah, blah, blah.  Estimated 2 to 4%

5 – you build it for boost – turbo or blower with a Megasquirt type engine management system.  Estimated increase – 40% to 100%

Of course re-gearing the ring & pinion for any tire size changes will make a big difference in putting the torque in the right RPM range.

The next level of “power” is typically an engine swap.  If I were doing a swap and being practical and cost-effective, losing the Toyota badge, I’d swap in a Chevy 4.3L V-6.  You can build one with just about any power and performance you want, lots of aftermarket parts, and it’s very reliable, with relatively low cost investment.

How crazy you get I suppose is how badly you want to keep the Toyota badge and how much time and money you have to throw at the modifications.

If I were doing a swap to satisfy my desire and had extra money in my “swap-it-bank”, I’d install a V-8.

I will have a good gauge to see what the power difference is between my stock 22RE and this rebuild when I drive back and forth from home to Phoenix and from home to Lake Havasu City.

Gnarls.

[Aaronm [OP]]

So I got the 58 mm throttle body on. "Butt Dino" says minor power increase running the same patch of road as before the mod trying to push engine the same amount. Basically I feel a small increase in power pulling 2nd and 3rd but without any real measure I dont have any scientific data to back this up. Tomorrow bumping up AFM 2 teeth and installing one step hotter plug.

Discovered in the process that I could have set the throttle body a different way and most likely got more power. The problem that I ran into is the 85-88 throttle body I have that is bored out will not work with the 93 intake and the IAC valve that is on the lower manifold. The 93 intake is missing 2 ports that would allow the IAC valve to hook up. So in my search into making it work I found out that a 5mge celica throttle body from 85-87ish is 60 mm and will bolt up with minor mods to the 93 intake manifold and completely eliminate the IAC valve.

Here is the link.http://www.22rte-trucks.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1053.0     

CHEAP bored out throttle body !

 It just also happens that a guy on Ebay had one for 75$ so it is on the way to my house so I can set this up with the 93 upper intake this winter.  93 upper intake 30$ + 75$ ebay throttle body = much cheaper than any company and 60 mm.

[Snowtoy]

http://www.lceperformance.com/LCE-Pro-Fuel-Injection-Kit-2-4-Cylinder-p/1063024.htm

 
It is time to put the wallet down and step away when you start wanting/needing a stand-a-lone EFI system for your 22re.

In my experience there seems to be basically 5 “power levels” for the 22s.
2 – you add a header and 2.25” exhaust pipe with free flow muffler. – estimated increase in Tq and HP 8 to 10%

3 – you swap heads with oversize valves with a bigger or torquey cam to go with your head and exhaust, intake manifold and Weber. – estimated increase 7 to 10%

After these two mod's, the 22r series just doesn't have that much reliable hp left to find, and milking out what is left tends to make cost more than it is worth.

How crazy you get I suppose is how badly you want to keep the Toyota badge and how much time and money you have to throw at the modifications.

If I were doing a swap to satisfy my desire and had extra money in my “swap-it-bank”, I’d install a V-8.

Gnarls.

You can keep the Toyota badge and have more ponies than you need w/o going to a V8, Toyota has 2 I6's that will will produce anywhere from 220-1k HP.  On a budget build a 7mgte swap is good for 220-500hp, and can have 400hp for under $5k, while the 2jzgte will produce 400-1k hp for $5k-?

[Gnarly4X]

 
You can keep the Toyota badge and have more ponies than you need w/o going to a V8, Toyota has 2 I6's that will will produce anywhere from 220-1k HP.  On a budget build a 7mgte swap is good for 220-500hp, and can have 400hp for under $5k, while the 2jzgte will produce 400-1k hp for $5k-?

I had 1984 Supra..... that engine would NOT be my choice for a Toyota engine swap for my truck!!  And... getting that engine to HP greater than stock would be WAY more costly than $5,000!!  Or.... can you enlighten me?

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

I haven't heard good things about the 7mtge either. I was considering it as a swap but when you look around it is far from a good engine on the non 4x4 sites.

[Gnarly4X]

I haven't heard good things about the 7mtge either. I was considering it as a swap but when you look around it is far from a good engine on the non 4x4 sites.

I don't know about every year manufacturer of that engine, but I do about my 1984. The oil galleys for lubing the camshafts have a design flaw - they are too small.  I stuck a camshaft and it cost me $5,000.

Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

My buddy swapped in a 7mge into his 2nd gen pickup.. gravel roads where i need 4L in 5th gear to maintain speed at about 3200 rpms, he's in 3rd gear 2H at about 2300 rpms lol.. but if you've got the money, swap in the 1.9L TDI

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[knucklebuster]

 
It is time to put the wallet down and step away when you start wanting/needing a stand-a-lone EFI system for your 22re.
After these two mod's, the 22r series just doesn't have that much reliable hp left to find, and milking out what is left tends to make cost more than it is worth.

Yup
I've been down to putneys shop and seen 22r/e motors that where about as built as you can go, supercharged, 20/22 hybrids, ect. He built one recently with a ridiculous amount one-off parts and a HUGE snail bolted to it. He said it should be good for 300+ hp, the price tag was around 9k.
I have about 1800 right now into rebuilding a 22re and that's with mostly stock parts.

If I didn't live in California and I where to do it again I would definitely be looking into a turbo diesel swap.

[Gnarly4X]

Yup
I've been down to putneys shop and seen 22r/e motors that where about as built as you can go, supercharged, 20/22 hybrids, ect. He built one recently with a ridiculous amount one-off parts and a HUGE snail bolted to it. He said it should be good for 300+ hp, the price tag was around 9k.
I have about 1800 right now into rebuilding a 22re and that's with mostly stock parts.

If I didn't live in California and I where to do it again I would definitely be looking into a turbo diesel swap.

Moving away from the Toyota badge, I believe I can build a 300 HP Chevy 4.3L V-6 for 1/2 that cost and more reliable and repairs and spare parts, and modifications WAY less costly and more available from multiple sources.

Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

If you're going to swap, why not swap in a diesel? 1.9l tdi has way better mileage, and can easily get the same torque..

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[Snowtoy]

I had 1984 Supra..... that engine would NOT be my choice for a Toyota engine swap for my truck!!  And... getting that engine to HP greater than stock would be WAY more costly than $5,000!!  Or.... can you enlighten me?

Gnarls.

The '84 had the 5mge I6, the 7mge came in the '86-92 Supra and Cressida, and the 7mgte started in '87 Supra.  The 7mgte stock is 220HP and is a whole different beast than the 5m.  The 7mgte stock internals(or oem grade replacements) are good for 500+HP, and many in the MKIII community run 400 rwhp in their daily drivers, some in the mid 500's, a few have topped 700HP, but that requires spending more than most would want to, since you can have the 2jz twin turbo for less.  The 7mgte in my '87 cost me $1500 to rebuild and that was setting it up with metal head gasket and ARP head studs in preparation for the LS 400 MAF/larger injectors/fuel pump mod to get me to the 400hp+ range at a relatively low boost of 12-15psi.  All in w/purchase of the Supra, engine rebuild, new intercooler, and intake/injector mods, I have spent just uder $3k, not bad for 400 reliable ponies.

I haven't heard good things about the 7mtge either. I was considering it as a swap but when you look around it is far from a good engine on the non 4x4 sites.

The 7mgte suffered the same issues with the HG's that the 3.0 and early 3.4's did, w/proper rebuild and ARP studs, the HG issue is resolved, that is until you try to go beyond 12-14psi boost on the oem HG.

The real issue with the 7m's is repair costs, most see the cheap used prices of the MKIII and think it is cheap to fix, what they don't realize is the reason for the low non-running price is due to the high cost of repair, about double the cost of parts for a 22r, which is why bought my '87 for $300 w/a rod knock.

[Snowtoy]

Yup
I've been down to putneys shop and seen 22r/e motors that where about as built as you can go, supercharged, 20/22 hybrids, ect. He built one recently with a ridiculous amount one-off parts and a HUGE snail bolted to it. He said it should be good for 300+ hp, the price tag was around 9k.

Showcase engines like that are fine for showing what can be done w/a 22r, but unless you are in a 22r race league, $9k for 300 ponies is insane, that is unless you just hit the Powerball.

[Gnarly4X]

.... All in w/purchase of the Supra, engine rebuild, new intercooler, and intake/injector mods, I have spent just uder $3k, not bad for 400 reliable ponies.

Right up to the point it blows up!!.... then you have a $3,000 boat anchor.

Gnarls

[Gnarly4X]

... The 7mgte stock internals(or oem grade replacements) are good for 500+HP, and many in the MKIII community run 400 rwhp in their daily drivers, some in the mid 500's, a few have topped 700HP....

I have read many many posts on HP numbers, but rarely - and I mean rarely - are those posts ever backed up with any certified dyno tests.  Perhaps I'm just a skeptic, but until I see some data.... .all those numbers are just HAPPY Bravo Sierra to me.

Regarding reliability of any DIYer highly modified-from-stock engine, IF I saw the numbers produced on SuperFlo engine dyno or a Mustang chassis dyno, the next condition I'd want to know is what is the mean time to failure.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

...The 7mgte suffered the same issues with the HG's that the 3.0 and early 3.4's did, w/proper rebuild and ARP studs, the HG issue is resolved, that is until you try to go beyond 12-14psi boost on the oem HG.

I don't believe that a different head gasket and ARP studs, and a "proper rebuild" (what, as opposed to the factory's improper build?) will "resolve" the inherent design flaw in those engines.  A new head gasket of course will repair it.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Showcase engines like that are fine for showing what can be done w/a 22r, but unless you are in a 22r race league, $9k for 300 ponies is insane, that is unless you just hit the Powerball.

Is it also insane to spend $10,000 on a Rolex when it reads the same time as $50 Timex??

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Forum threads on "everything engines" or Engines-R- Us", is fun at the very least, and very enlightening, especially discussing "POWER"!!!!

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Horse power is for sissies!

[Gnarly4X]

Horse power is for sissies!

Sissies.....

One summer evening, during a violent thunderstorm, a mother was tucking her small boy into bed. She was about to turn off the light when he asked with a tremor in his voice, "Mommy, will you sleep with me tonight?"

The mother smiled and gave him a reassuring hug. "I can't dear," she said. "I have to sleep in Daddy's room."

A long silence was broken at last by a shaken little voice saying, "The big sissy."


Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

I dunno.. I'd prefer torque over HP...

If you wanna squeeze a tiny bit more out of the 22re, you could go propane.. I haven't seen any numbers on it though

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