Topic: Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[Gnarly4X]

I understand what you are trying to achieve, I just don't see how a few more ft lbs of torque and a couple of ponies at a lower rpm are going to overcome the 11-12% under gearing you have now.  The .020 bore and O/S head will help, as will the header, but I have yet to see any engine mods to a 22r replace the performance lost when being under geared.

With the engine mods you have done/plan to do and 4.56 gears you could likely tow the trailer you are looking at w/pleasurable results, but with your current tires and 4.10's, I don't think you will find it all that enjoyable.


The gains of the 261 from 2800rpm's up are nice, don't care for the drop in numbers between 23-2800rpm's though, maybe along w/better intake/exhaust set-up allows it revs faster so that the lower numbers don't effect the performance.

Do you have the numbers for the stock cam and DT header?

Hi Snowtoy,

Well, perhaps we can agree to disagree on gearing change vs power increase. 

Yes, I have numbers for stock 22RE and 22R with DT header.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi Snowtoy,

Just to tap dance with you a little more regarding your insistent belief, and earlier post, that my “real world” torque numbers will be higher if I change my ring & pinion gearing from my stock 4.10s to your suggested 4.56 ring & pinion…

....my belief, based upon my experience with 3 Toy trucks with 22RE/22R engines and my research over the years, is that the laws of physics, what is calculated on a chassis dyno, and the results – Time, RPM, Torque, and HP- will demonstrate that, in fact, my 4.10 gears and 31” tires will actually produce HIGHER torque numbers, not lower torque numbers.

If I’m wrong, can you please enlighten me with any laws of physics, mathematical formulas, automotive engineering, or dyno data?

Again, I am not an engine builder or any where near an automotive engineer, so I’m always in a mode to learn new stuff.

Regarding the lower torque numbers in specific RPM with the 261C vs the stock cam profile.... yes, the 261C is moving the torque numbers up in the RPM, and that is exactly why I like the profile.  However, as with most cam profile changes that move torque and HP numbers up or down the RPM range and output - there is typically a trade-off or sacrifice.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

I ran the same motor, everything stock with 31's and 4.10 gears and 4.56 gears. 4.56's gears made going up long hills easier and I was able to achieve a higher speed faster. Off road it was better as well.

[Gnarly4X]

I ran the same motor, everything stock with 31's and 4.10 gears and 4.56 gears. 4.56's gears made going up long hills easier and I was able to achieve a higher speed faster. Off road it was better as well.

Hi Mudder,

Yes, you should feel an increase in throttle response with the 4.56 gears.  Why?....

Let's say your R&P is 4.10 with 31" tires - you are in first gear and off-road at 6 MPH - your RPM will be very close to 1000 RPM.  Your engine is producing 86.8 foot lbs of torque and 16.5 HP.

Now say your R&P is 4.56 with 31" tires - you are in first gear and off-road at 6 MPH - your RPM will be very close to 1100 RPM.  Your engine is producing 91.3 foot pounds of torque and 19.1 HP. 

So your butt dyno should "feel" an increase of about 5% in torque and HP... right?               

I want to do the same thing - "feel" an increase of about 5% in torque and HP only at 80 MPH....

Keep in mind, I'm not looking to chirp my tires going through the gears.  I'm looking to simply maintain inertia by dynamically creating more torque to increase momentum in a specific RPM range.  In other words, I want more power between 2800 and 3400 RPM in 5th gear.  I also want to do the same when in 4th gear at a lower MPH.                                                                                                                             

Does that make sense?

Gnarls.

[Gillesdetrail]

R&P gears change nothing in throttle response. Throttle response is the time taken from the moment the throttle body is opened to the moment the engine responds, makes torque. Lower gears also don't move the powerband up or down, they just multiply the torque transmitted to the ground, to the tires. The torque number and torque-band applied to the r&p by the engine is the same no matter what gears you have. You will feel a bigger increase in power with lower gears, more acceleration, more pulling power while towing, throughout the whole powerband because of the multiplication of torque to the wheels. It takes a big increase in horsepower and torque to overcome the under-gearing over stock. I think with your setup gnarlly4x, it will pull about the same as stock maybe a little bit more in the lower end, less on the top end because of the characteristics of the cam, and the under-gearing vs torque increase will pretty much match stock performance with stock tires/gears from what I have seen in the past, I've enjoyed reading about your build and I'm anxious to hear your opinion on the outcome and dyno numbers.

[Gnarly4X]

R&P gears change nothing in throttle response. Throttle response is the time taken from the moment the throttle body is opened to the moment the engine responds, makes torque. Lower gears also don't move the powerband up or down, they just multiply the torque transmitted to the ground, to the tires. The torque number and torque-band applied to the r&p by the engine is the same no matter what gears you have. You will feel a bigger increase in power with lower gears, more acceleration, more pulling power while towing, throughout the whole powerband because of the multiplication of torque to the wheels. It takes a big increase in horsepower and torque to overcome the under-gearing over stock. I think with your setup gnarlly4x, it will pull about the same as stock maybe a little bit more in the lower end, less on the top end because of the characteristics of the cam, and the under-gearing vs torque increase will pretty much match stock performance with stock tires/gears from what I have seen in the past, I've enjoyed reading about your build and I'm anxious to hear your opinion on the outcome and dyno numbers.

Hello Gillesdetrail,

Interesting…

Scenario 1 - So, I should have just rebuilt my engine completely back to stock specs.  Replace the 31” tires with stock 28” tires, leave the 4.10 R&P, and I would be happy at 80 MPH in 5th gear with my engine producing 143 lbs of torque at 3400 RPM?

Scenario 2 - Or… with my rebuilt engine, will I be a happy with my 31” tires, swap my stock 4.10 gears for 4.56 R&P to multiple torque to the ground, at 80 MPH in 5th gear with my engine producing 152 lbs of torque at 3400 RPM?

Scenario 3 - Or… with my rebuilt engine, will I be a happy with my 31” tires, stock 4.10 gears, at 80 MPH in 5th gear with my engine producing 152 lbs of torque at 3000 RPM, and 6 $100 bills in my pocket?

Scenario 4 - Now, I’m driving down the freeway at 80 MPH in 5th gear and I start pulling an uphill grade in my stock engine, stock tires, stock 4.10 gears with RPMs at 3400.  The load on the engine increases, and I lose speed down to 60 MPH, now the engine RPM at 2500, my engine is producing 145 lbs of torque.  I shift down to 4th gear to maintain 60 MPH.  Now the RPM is up 3000, my stock engine is producing is 147 lbs. of torque.

Scenario 5 - Now, I’m driving down the freeway at 80 MPH in 5th gear and I start pulling the same uphill grade in my rebuilt engine, 31” tires, stock 4.10 gears with RPMs at 3000.  At 3000 RPM my engine is producing 152 lbs of torque. The load on the engine increases, but in Scenario 4 it only took 147 lbs of torque to maintain 60 MPH, but I have 5 more lbs of torque, so I can easily maintain 60, and should be able maintain 70 MPH because at 70 MPH the engine RPM is at 2700, my engine is producing 148 lbs of torque.  At 70 MPH and 148 lbs of torque, I don’t have to shift down to 4th gear to maintain 70 MPH.

Scenario 5 - Now, I’m driving down the freeway at 80 MPH in 5th gear and I start pulling the same uphill grade in my rebuilt engine back to stock specs, 28” tires, stock 4.10 gears with RPMs at 3400.  At 3400 RPM my engine is producing 143 lbs of torque. The load on the engine increases, and I lose speed down to 60 MPH, now the engine RPM is at 2500, my engine is producing 145 lbs of torque. Since it takes 147 lbs of torque to maintain 60, I drop down to 4th gear and 3,000 where the engine is producing 147 lbs – just enough to maintain 60 MPH.

Is my thinking or my theoretical calculations incorrect?

"It takes a big increase in horsepower and torque to overcome the under-gearing over stock"... can you please explain in terms of laws of physics, mathematical calculations/formulas, or dyno test results.??

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

R&P gears change nothing in throttle response. Throttle response is the time taken from the moment the throttle body is opened to the moment the engine responds, makes torque.

OK... I think I see what you mean...

My engine rebuild...

4.10 R&P, in 1st gear, just idling at 900 RPM, my torque number 69.4 foot lbs, my speed is 5.1 MPH
I punch the throttle to 1900 RPM, my torque is 112, my speed is 11 MPH

4.88 R&P, in 1st gear, just idling at 900 RPM, my torque number 69.4 foot lbs, my speed is 4.3 MPH
I punch the throttle to 1900 RPM, my torque is 112, my speed is 9 MPH

So my throttle response is the same, but my actual speed is higher with the 4.10 gears at 1900 RPMs??

Gnarls.

[Gillesdetrail]

OK... I think I see what you mean...

My engine rebuild...

4.10 R&P, in 1st gear, just idling at 900 RPM, my torque number 69.4 foot lbs, my speed is 5.1 MPH
I punch the throttle to 1900 RPM, my torque is 112, my speed is 11 MPH

4.88 R&P, in 1st gear, just idling at 900 RPM, my torque number 69.4 foot lbs, my speed is 4.3 MPH
I punch the throttle to 1900 RPM, my torque is 112, my speed is 9 MPH

So my throttle response is the same, but my actual speed is higher with the 4.10 gears at 1900 RPMs??

Gnarls.

The time it will take to reach the same speed will be less with the higher gears even though you will be at higher rpm.

I think you need to stop thinking about flywheel horsepower but more about torque to the wheels. For the same reason in a general way a 3000lbs, 300hp vehicle with 3.73 gears will be slower in the 1/4 mile than the same vehicle with 4.10 gears. Let's say a completely stock setup makes 100 ft-lbs tq to the wheels. Add a 5% increase in torque with engine mods, you are at 105 ft-lbs tq to the wheels. De-gear by 10% and add heavier wheels/tires and you are pretty much back to stock torque to the wheels if not less. What I mean is you are increasing your power output, and aiming for a particular powerband (which may be spot on or completely different than what your engine program results show), but decreasing torque transmitted to the ground by having higher gear ratios, and the final results may not be far from a stock setup with 28'' tires. It will however be much better than a stock engine on 31'' with 4.10 that's for sure.

[Gillesdetrail]

If you absolutely want physics and mathematics and engineering explanation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbvATt89Ico

[Gnarly4X]

If you absolutely want physics and mathematics and engineering explanation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbvATt89Ico

Ok, so if I took my truck with a rebuilt stock 22RE, stock 4.10 gears, stock 28” tires and test it on a chassis dyno.

Then take the same truck only with my rebuilt engine with mods, with 4.10 gears, 31” tires and test it on a chassis dyno, the dyno results would show about the same torque and HP numbers to the rear wheels?

If I took my stock truck with stock engine, tires, but swapped the R&P to 4.56, the chassis dyno will show higher torque and higher HP numbers?

If I took my stock truck with stock engine, tires, but swapped the R&P to 4.88s, will the chassis dyno show more torque and HP then the 4.56s? ... even though in 5th gear I'd running at 4,000 RPMs?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi Gillesdetrail,

Thanks for sharing that information.

For many years I've read hundreds of posts on forums, I read my desktop dyno numbers, I read purported numbers published by aftermarket suppliers, and OEM websites, I talk to the "experts", BUT I never see any certified engine dyno or chassis dyno results and comparisons.... Just lots opinions, theory, math, YouTube experts, and forumulas.....

It would be nice to actually see some test results or better yet witness some testing, either on a engine dyno or on a quality chassis dyno.   

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

Gnarly, is your truck stock as in no sliders, winch, bumpers, and whatever else? If so that could be why you and I have a very different opinion on R&P choices. I have a 600 pound flatbed, dual tool boxes, sliders that use 2x2 1/4 square tubing as the main part and an 8274 with steel cable. I know going up long hills would be easier in my truck if I ditched a lot of the weight I have. AN that weight could be the very reason 4.56's work better for me and my application.

[Gillesdetrail]

Ok, so if I took my truck with a rebuilt stock 22RE, stock 4.10 gears, stock 28” tires and test it on a chassis dyno.

Then take the same truck only with my rebuilt engine with mods, with 4.10 gears, 31” tires and test it on a chassis dyno, the dyno results would show about the same torque and HP numbers to the rear wheels?

If I took my stock truck with stock engine, tires, but swapped the R&P to 4.56, the chassis dyno will show higher torque and higher HP numbers?

If I took my stock truck with stock engine, tires, but swapped the R&P to 4.88s, will the chassis dyno show more torque and HP then the 4.56s? ... even though in 5th gear I'd running at 4,000 RPMs?



Gnarls.

Depending on the dyno and what it takes into account, no, if you take a bone stock toyota, put it on the dyno for a baseline, then put in 4.88 gears and re-test, the power and torque number will be different yes. And if you put on 31'' instead of 28'' the numbers will be different too.

"Higher ratio gears will give you lower chassis dyno numbers for a strange, but logical reason. In essence, the DynoJet calculates hp based on the time it takes to spin up the 2800lb roller assembly. It's basically work divided by time and rpm. Think about this: If you car is at idle in neutral and you stab the throttle, it will take time to accelerate to redline...let's say 1.1 seconds. Now let's say it takes 8.2 seconds for your car to accelerate the DynoJet from low speed to top speed with 3.23 gears and 7.3 seconds with 3.73 gears. Dyno printout says 355 rwhp with 3.23 gears and 346 rwhp with 3.73 gears...why?

Think aabout this: In the 8.2 seconds it takes to spin the rollers with 3.23 gears, it would still take the motor about 1.1 seconds to overcome its own inertia (idle to redline). There's about 13.4% of the work used just to accelerate the motor itself. With 3.73 gears, the time to reach redline decreases to 7.3 seconds. Divide the 1.1 seconds into the 7.3 seconds and you will see that overcoming the internal engine inertia costs 15.1% of the work with 3.73 gears. There is less hp available during this time period to spin the rollers so the DynoJet will read a slightly lower hp figure. Make sense, or did I lose you?''

That is why you are still waiting for chassis dyno or dyno tests, it will never happen, because the increase can't be calculated properly. It has repeatedly been shown on the drag strip, for one example, where the numbers on the dyno will be lower but the 1/4 mile time will be much lower and mph faster.

Whether in off-roading or road racing or bicycling, lower gears will give better acceleration period, you don't need a physics paper to explain it, understand it or prove it, it is common knowledge since gear ratios have been invented.

The maximum rear wheel torque as measure by the dyno is not real world RWTQ, but a computed number useful for comparing one engine to another.

[blackdiamond]

Depending on the dyno and what it takes into account, no, if you take a bone stock toyota, put it on the dyno for a baseline, then put in 4.88 gears and re-test, the power and torque number will be different yes. And if you put on 31'' instead of 28'' the numbers will be different too.

"Higher ratio gears will give you lower chassis dyno numbers for a strange, but logical reason. In essence, the DynoJet calculates hp based on the time it takes to spin up the 2800lb roller assembly. It's basically work divided by time and rpm. Think about this: If you car is at idle in neutral and you stab the throttle, it will take time to accelerate to redline...let's say 1.1 seconds. Now let's say it takes 8.2 seconds for your car to accelerate the DynoJet from low speed to top speed with 3.23 gears and 7.3 seconds with 3.73 gears. Dyno printout says 355 rwhp with 3.23 gears and 346 rwhp with 3.73 gears...why?

Think aabout this: In the 8.2 seconds it takes to spin the rollers with 3.23 gears, it would still take the motor about 1.1 seconds to overcome its own inertia (idle to redline). There's about 13.4% of the work used just to accelerate the motor itself. With 3.73 gears, the time to reach redline decreases to 7.3 seconds. Divide the 1.1 seconds into the 7.3 seconds and you will see that overcoming the internal engine inertia costs 15.1% of the work with 3.73 gears. There is less hp available during this time period to spin the rollers so the DynoJet will read a slightly lower hp figure. Make sense, or did I lose you?''

That is why you are still waiting for chassis dyno or dyno tests, it will never happen, because the increase can't be calculated properly. It has repeatedly been shown on the drag strip, for one example, where the numbers on the dyno will be lower but the 1/4 mile time will be much lower and mph faster.

Whether in off-roading or road racing or bicycling, lower gears will give better acceleration period, you don't need a physics paper to explain it, understand it or prove it, it is common knowledge since gear ratios have been invented.

The maximum rear wheel torque as measure by the dyno is not real world RWTQ, but a computed number useful for comparing one engine to another.

Lower gears give you more "leverage". Just yesterday I was able to have some fun in my Sequoia by dropping into 4low and unleashing all of the horsepower. It's a quick trip to 30 mph and then you start to need more gears.

The biggest improvement from the engine is extending the useable range into higher rpms which allows you to stay in a lower gear long which give you more "leverage" just like low differential gearing.

I have always enjoyed this explanation for horsepower vs. torque.

http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/torqueHP.htm

[Gnarly4X]

Well, I did more "indepth research" and some rough calculations based upon Snowtoy, Gillesdetrail, the others who posted their experience with going to lower gears in the 3rd member - higher gear ratio (4.10 to 4.56 ring & pinion). 

It looks like I was wrong in my thinking. 

YES, it looks like if I swap 4.10s to 4.56s, it will put the RPM at 50, 60, 70, 80 MPH in 4th and 5th gears at a higher torque number  (based on my desktop dyno software) within my usable the RPM range.

I will do a spread sheet in the next couple days.

Crap!!!  ....So I'll have to grow my Toy Kitty piggy bank a lot fatter!! 

I will want to dyno test my new rebuilt, then swap R&Ps to 4.56, then test it again.

I still want to dyno test another camshaft profile, maybe 2.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

If you ever want to goto 33s,   you'll want 4.88s.........

You might want 4.88s with the 31s,   so throw that in the mix............

[blackdiamond]

If you ever want to goto 33s,   you'll want 4.88s.........

You might want 4.88s with the 31s,   so throw that in the mix............

My 85 ran pretty strong in Colorado with 32 inch tires and 4.10 gears. I am currently running 4.88 years with 35 inch tires in my 89. I first ran the 4.88 gears in my 85 with 33 inch tires. It was a great combo and the 33 inch tires were just too much for the 4.10 gears.

[79coyotefrg]

Hey could you put the cam that's one notch less nasty than Glen's on there for comparison?  My only issue with that one is that the lift is big enough you might have to fly cut the pistons and it would be nice to use one that was more plug and play.  I want to see how much theoretical difference the bigger lift makes.

Might be fun to add the EB268 as well.

the 440 cam is good to run without clearancing pistons if you dont rev over 6500

[79coyotefrg]

Ok, so if I took my truck with a rebuilt stock 22RE, stock 4.10 gears, stock 28” tires and test it on a chassis dyno.

Then take the same truck only with my rebuilt engine with mods, with 4.10 gears, 31” tires and test it on a chassis dyno, the dyno results would show about the same torque and HP numbers to the rear wheels?

no, with lower gearing you have less wasted power

If I took my stock truck with stock engine, tires, but swapped the R&P to 4.56, the chassis dyno will show higher torque and higher HP numbers?

If I took my stock truck with stock engine, tires, but swapped the R&P to 4.88s, will the chassis dyno show more torque and HP then the 4.56s? ... even though in 5th gear I'd running at 4,000 RPMs?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

if I put 29's on my truck, hopped on a chassis dyno then pulled the engine and put it on a dyno the numbers would be closer than say having 35's  or 31's with 4.10's

can you post those numbers?  I cant open the spread sheet

[Gnarly4X]

can you post those numbers?  I cant open the spread sheet

79coyotefrg,

What sheet can't you open?  I haven't posted the gearing and RPM numbers yet.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

If you ever want to goto 33s,   you'll want 4.88s.........

You might want 4.88s with the 31s,   so throw that in the mix............

Yes, I did the calcs on 4.10s, 4.56s, and 4.88.  I'll try to get those numbers calculated and in spread sheet so you can see what the gearing, gear ratio multiplication, torque at RPM looks like in each gear.  Last night I ran just some quick math and it is very interesting.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

My 85 ran pretty strong in Colorado with 32 inch tires and 4.10 gears. I am currently running 4.88 years with 35 inch tires in my 89. I first ran the 4.88 gears in my 85 with 33 inch tires. It was a great combo and the 33 inch tires were just too much for the 4.10 gears.

blackdiamond,

So you guys don't think I'm a complete ree-tard...

I've always known about the suggested R&P change when changing tire size, I just never changed the R&Ps in any of my trucks, so... I had zero actual experience - only what you guys said who did make the change.

Since I had a Marlin Crawler T-case for rockcrawling, the 33s on my 22R '85 it didn't really bother me that much because I always had 4th gear for driving on the freeway loaded for camping or bucking a head wind.  Looking back, the R&P swap would have been a very good idea, especially running 33s.

Now, with my  future plan to pull a travel trailer, I focused on the engine rebuild, and wasn't thinking so much about the gearing.  Then you guys reminded me that the R&P gear change can make a big difference.

Since I was focused on freeway speeds in 5th gear, as it turns out mathematically, I was NOT that for off. 

4.10s at 80 MPH, 5th gear is 3022 RPM and at that RPM my DD says my rebuild is at 152 lbs of torque (theoretical).

4.56s at 80 MPH, 5th gear is 3361 RPM and at that RPM my DD says the rebuild is at 153 lbs of torque (theoretical).

I've always known about the gear ratio torque multiplication factor (I learned about that back in the days when I was driving my '63 Vette convertible and then my 67' Singray Fastback), but I just didn't realize that it would, mathematically, make that much difference between 4.10s and 4.56 (recommended change for 31" tires) in my truck.... it does.

The spread sheet will make it more clear, when I get it posted.

Despite all debate on chassis dyno vs engine dyno testing, and real world rubber-on-the-pavement results and data (and I've studied the subject quite a bit), I want to see for myself what it will show, whether or not it produces absolute data, it will at least give me a baseline and something to mentally masterbate over. 

As Jerry at 22RE Performance said... (paraphrasing) spending time and money tuning the 22RE is a critical to get the maximum power and performance out this little engine.  And.. that is what I experienced, especially with my 22R.  Surpisingly, for me, little gains in torque was very noticeable.

And, as Snowtoy posted his question about losing significant power, he indicated that even after all his diagnosis, testing and analysis, he believes it was just the DISTRIBUTOR CAP!!  .... Wow...

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATED CAM COMPARISON - EXCEL SHEET - Microsoft Office 2003.

See attached

[blackdiamond]

The other thing to consider is that when you build an engine you're free to choose the rpm range you want to maximize your torque in while regearing give you a mechanical advantage across the board at every rpm.

Pulling a trailer at 80 mph and a 22R-E sounds like an oxymoron to me, so I woukd go as deep in the gears as I could without getting crazy.  You may never get to 80!

[Gnarly4X]

...
Pulling a trailer at 80 mph and a 22R-E sounds like an oxymoron to me, so I woukd go as deep in the gears as I could without getting crazy.  You may never get to 80!

Come'on blackdiamond.... cut me a little slack.  If you are inferring that I'd would pull a 16 trailer at 80 MPH with my truck and that's "crazy", you may be right, but I most likely will just keep the freeway speeds between 70 and 75 and between 60 and 65 on 2 lane and windy hilly roads.  I live in AZ and if you ever get down here and drive on the 17 or 10 freeways on a Friday afternoon during the summer, I assume you'll be shocked when you get blown passed by guys pulling boats, jet skis, travel trailers, 5th wheels, and ATCs when you are going 75 MPH!!l  Is it crazy?  Yeah it can be. So going 80 MPH pulling a trailer where you live may be an oxymoron, but around here it seems to be the S.O.P.!!

At this point, I'm not even sure this engine and truck will be OK to pull a 16 or17' fiberglass Casita trailer??

I've pulled trailers with all 5 of my trucks a good number of times and I'm very aware of the dynamics involved.  In fact, I believe my XtraCab will pull a 16' travel trailer, albeit slowly, I just know that the braking part of controlling it may be dicey, it ain't got the torque of a Dodge diesel.  The weight of the trailer tends to "push" the back end around on the truck on deceleration and braking... and that can be safety issue.

I have pulled a 21' Ski boat on a dual axle tandem trailer with my '85 shortbed 22R, with zero problems, I just didn't  go over 65 MPH, and took extra care to avoid having to brake heavily.

[H8PVMNT]

Well I first want to say that I like Bacon. 

I was avoiding this discussion and watching it happily from the side lines, but I have a good actual experience comparison I can throw in here...

In regards to gearing vs. engine power mods:  When my truck was nearly new in 1994 I had the typical rims, chrome junk, stereo and 31s with 4.10 gears.  It was snappy all new with 28" tires on it, not so much with 31s, but still doable and better for picking up chicks.  I then did the header, some mid-grunt schneider cam probably very similar to the 261C and did the AFM tweak.  These mods in theory added power and torque similar to what we are talking about here.  This was on a 30K mile 22re, so pretty fresh.

This did help restore drivability lost from the 31s?  Yes, but not equal to correct gearing with stock tires stock engine.

A couple years later I was running 33s with this setup and I could get around but 5th gear was non-existent.  Being young and dumb I had a thermostat stick way up in the woods and just drove it out, warping the head and destroying the bottom end.  I had a shop put a crummy stock re-man 22re in there.  It was not a nice as my camed 22re but still OK. 

After about another year I ended up gearing to 5.29s which is pretty tight gearing for 33s.  It totally ripped!  Towing was no problem either.  Pulled passes in 5th gear most of the time.  This setup with 33s and 5.29s in my perception made the truck feel slightly more powerful and drivable than stock with stock tires and WAY more drivable than the 31s and 33s and 4.10s.  And this was with a really lousy re-man with a stock grind cam.

So dyno numbers in regards to gearing?  I don't know, but in regards to true drivability, nothing I have done equals the performance restored by running the correct gear ratio for whatever tire size you happen to be running. 

Not implying that a good cam, header and oversized valves aren't worth it, just that you will certainly see the most out of your engine mods if you have proper gear ratio for your tires as well.

That being said, 31s aren't asking much.  I think 33s justify a re-gear but 31s are right on the line.  If I were in your shoes and this was the truck I was going to run until I die I would re-gear and probably run a slightly bigger tire too, maybe a skinny 33. 

I think based on what I have experienced if you were to run 31s with 4.56 or 33s with 4.88s plus your excellent fresh engine and a nice cam it will do about as well as any 22re could.

First I would run it with your new engine/cam and 4.10s and see what you think though.  It may be perfectly tolerable for you.

If it does not perform up to your needs and expectations, then re-gear to the ideal gear ratio for whatever tire you want to run and you will have the best of all of it!

That is my "worthless opinion" but it's based on personal experience only.

[H8PVMNT]

UPDATED CAM COMPARISON - EXCEL SHEET - Microsoft Office 2003.

See attached

Interesting, thank you!  I don't know the 268 looks pretty promising and the 440 lift LC cam looks like it would feel like the stock cam plus a little bump.

[Gnarly4X]

Well I first want to say that I like Bacon.  .....

I love bacon!  Although I try to enjoy it on special occasions.

I like you more when you are not sitting on the sidelines.

Excellent feedback, and the experiences are very valuable to me.  I appreciate detailing the facts & feelings.

I may go to 33s, but right now probably not. I still want to add some mods to be able to get off-road - lockers and crawler t-case.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

Come'on blackdiamond.... cut me a little slack.  If you are inferring that I'd would pull a 16 trailer at 80 MPH with my truck and that's "crazy", you may be right, but I most likely will just keep the freeway speeds between 70 and 75 and between 60 and 65 on 2 lane and windy hilly roads.  I live in AZ and if you ever get down here and drive on the 17 or 10 freeways on a Friday afternoon during the summer, I assume you'll be shocked when you get blown passed by guys pulling boats, jet skis, travel trailers, 5th wheels, and ATCs when you are going 75 MPH!!l  Is it crazy?  Yeah it can be. So going 80 MPH pulling a trailer where you live may be an oxymoron, but around here it seems to be the S.O.P.!!

I was only intending to state that pulling anything at 80 mph with a 22R-E is a tall order...you're likely to be at your destination before you achieve that speed. 

[Gnarly4X]

I was only intending to state that pulling anything at 80 mph with a 22R-E is a tall order...you're likely to be at your destination before you achieve that speed. 

lol.... Yes, at that speed pulling anything... if my sweaty palms and rapid heart rate does not interfere with my driving!!

Gnarls.