Author Topic: "Normal" 22RE Timing chain noise (Read 23780 times)

Jagdverband44 · « **on:** Jan 20, 2011, 10:28:09 AM »

Hi friends,

I've got an interesting thing going on with what I have now narrowed down to the timing chain in an 11k mile 22re. When the engine first starts, just for about a second I can hear noise from the chain on the sweet plastic guide rails, but it quickly goes away. After the engine is warm, while listening, I can hear the chain making noise holding the RPM at 1,200 and then on the return to idle from about 2.5k RPM. I need some input before I replace the timing set with one that has metal guides. I am running a 5w40 oil and am going to switch to 15w40 to see if that makes any difference with startup noise. The engine also idles somewhat rough and a loose chain would for sure cause this. I know I prolly need to

but these engines make me worried reading all the the single row horror stories.

emsvitil · « **Reply #1 on:** Jan 20, 2011, 12:47:06 PM »

For the first (start-up) noise, I'd say it's the tensioner.

It will take a couple of seconds for the oil to pressurize the tensioner, so I wouldn't worry about noise on startup.

Are you sure it's the chain for the 2nd noise?

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #2 on:** Jan 20, 2011, 09:52:05 PM »

Okay that makes sense and I am positive that that noise is the chain because only a chain would make a noise like that. It only happens on the return from higher RPM and right above idle. I am going to try thicker oil and experiment with different oil filters because it may have to do with a crappy one way valve on the filter. If these don't work, I bet that faint sound will start to get a lot louder in about 50k miles and then its timing set time.

yoshaleng · « **Reply #3 on:** Jan 20, 2011, 10:38:27 PM »

I agree w/ emvitil on the tensioner, 11k...the engine should be broken in already. Have you thought about running 10w30 full synthetic?

93REDCRAWLER · « **Reply #4 on:** Jan 21, 2011, 05:46:05 PM »

Quote from: YosHaleng on Jan 20, 2011, 10:38:27 PM

I agree w/ emvitil on the tensioner, 11k...the engine should be broken in already. Have you thought about running 10w30 full synthetic?

X2

Rocksurfer · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 22, 2011, 03:07:37 AM »

First I would try an OEM Toyota oil filter to see if the start up noise goes away, if it does then that's your problem. Non OEM filters will drain back and you'll get a rattle at start up until the pressure comes up. If it still makes noise then it is the tensioner. Don't try heavier oils this could cause pump failure making for even more problems. Toyota designed the pump for the recommeded oil viscosity, a higher viscosity will make it have to work harder to push the oil through. Plus a 5w will circulate quicker than a 10w.

KDXSR5 · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 23, 2011, 10:04:03 AM »

Did a new tensioner get installed with the timing chain? If not I would definitely do that next time I had it apart.

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #7 on:** Feb 01, 2011, 03:13:35 PM »

Quote from: Rocksurfer on Jan 22, 2011, 03:07:37 AM

First I would try an OEM Toyota oil filter to see if the start up noise goes away, if it does then that's your problem. Non OEM filters will drain back and you'll get a rattle at start up until the pressure comes up. If it still makes noise then it is the tensioner. Don't try heavier oils this could cause pump failure making for even more problems. Toyota designed the pump for the recommeded oil viscosity, a higher viscosity will make it have to work harder to push the oil through. Plus a 5w will circulate quicker than a 10w.

Rocksurfer, I just did an oil and filter change. Everyone said the WIX filters were good, so I ran one last change. Unscrewed it expecting my block to be drenched in oil the moment I hit the last few threads but it came out dry. The drainback valve was faulty. I did't go OEM, I just put a larger Purolator PL20195 Pure One and I'm going to see how it works as I have heard good things about them. If this one makes noise, i'm going OEM next time. I'm running 15w40 Brad Penn which is within specs for the engine according to the table in the manual for the climate where I live. Will post results when I get em'.

rmoore · « **Reply #8 on:** Feb 04, 2011, 05:25:15 PM »

Toyota oil filters are the only way to go. And there not expensive at all.

slacker · « **Reply #9 on:** Feb 04, 2011, 06:06:17 PM »

yeah .. I totally agree with the toyota filter .. (small)
I only use them and recommend ..

thing is .. If you look at an "oil pressure guide" for the 20+22+ blocks .. the tensioner is the first thing to recieve the "built " oil pressure ..

oil filter first has to "fill" and then send the oil to the tensioner .. a larger filter takes mili seconds longer to fill , creating the initial critical start wear .. smaller filter will absolutly quieten down "chain slap" and help with less wear ..

toyota filters also have the "anti drain back valve" .. which helps a lot
.

yotaneck13 · « **Reply #10 on:** Feb 04, 2011, 06:24:24 PM »

i blew 3 motors due to running 15w40 if its cold where your at i would NOT do this i have this same noise now and my motor has around the same miles 10,xxx since rebuilt was thinking it was the plastic slides i put in instead of metal $I\'m Down$ but may be main or rod berings due to the steady rmp noise and the rev down noise we are both hearing real faint as well on my part

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #11 on:** Mar 08, 2011, 11:27:20 AM »

On the Toyota viscosity index, the indication says that you can run a 15w40 if the air temp does not drop below 20. I am running high zddp/phosphorus oil so hopefully my wear from the initial one second knock should be minimized.
That is a really good point regarding the smaller filter filling faster but isn't the anti drainback valve supposed to prevent just that. The Purolator oil filter that is in there now has an anti drainback valve and is still letting oil back. I was thinking that there is a problem with the oil pump seal allowing for the loss of oil in the filter. I will try a small Toyota filter next change, but if I still hear that awful noise, I am going to get deeper into it.

yotaneck13 · « **Reply #12 on:** Mar 08, 2011, 02:37:57 PM »

use napa spin flow gold filter theyre awsome

Rocksurfer · « **Reply #13 on:** Mar 09, 2011, 03:17:06 AM »

Quote from: yotaneck13 on Mar 08, 2011, 02:37:57 PM

use napa spin flow gold filter theyre awsome

NAPA and Valvoline oil filters are made by Wix oil filters, they are just re-badged and there is no difference just for your info. So if you like NAPA's you can price compare the three.

79yota4x · « **Reply #14 on:** Mar 09, 2011, 08:47:47 AM »

my cousins 90 22re has the same problem so did my 22r when i put it in, i just put new gears chain and guides in and its been fine

clifford91 · « **Reply #15 on:** Mar 10, 2011, 08:27:51 AM »

I just rebuilt my 22-re and I've been running wal-mart's Super-Tech 10w-30, and putting BG MOA (Motor Oil Additive) in from the get-go. I'm pretty sold on BG, watch these videos. I buy the MOA in bulk on ebay. Just got a pack of 10 for about $5 a can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnFmf2hDgjg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ethe3fnR02I&NR=1

I also used a Beck/Arnley Heavy Duty Timing chain kit w/ metal backed guide, but I haven't had a problem with the noise.

I run Factory Toyota filter, although I get the slightly oversized one for the 22-re. I don't have the part number but it's basically the same, with a 3??? on the end instead of a 1??? I think. They can tell you at the dealer.

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #16 on:** Apr 13, 2011, 08:06:38 PM »

So....been awhile since I posted on this thread. I have used a Purolator pure one filter and now I am on a fresh OEM Toyota filter.
I still get the noise till 1200rpm with the OEM and the awful knock at startup when the engine is warm, although not quite as bad as before and only at startup when warm.

The knock; where is it coming from? Could the chain possibly be making this noise? How bad would it be if it were the rod bearings?

The oil pressure gauge on the cluster is an eighth increment from the bottom, yet at the very minimum of what the owners manual allows for oil pressure. I would like to test what the warm oil pressure is at numerically in psi. Does anyone know what it should be?

Rather than shotgun the issue by installing Enginebldr's oil pump/ timing chain combo and having the knock still be there I need to know why there is a knock. I am almost positive that the place that built the shortblock for this motor before I owned the truck did not statically or dynamically balance the rotating assembly, therefore guaranteed engine rebuild before it has 150k on it. I think my problem is related to inferior build quality, which sucks, but I want to know first. I may start sourcing parts for a shortblock soon so I can start balancing them with a very accurate gram scale and build a bottom end I know is going to last.

emsvitil · « **Reply #17 on:** Apr 13, 2011, 10:23:45 PM »

Maybe too much end-play in the crank.

Drive in a way so that you can get the knock on demand.

Then slightly push the clutch in to force the endplay out (but not enough to have a slipping clutch) and see if you get rid of the knock.

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #18 on:** Apr 18, 2011, 12:34:27 AM »

It's not crank end play because it's only at startup for not even a second and it never happens while driving. I am into aircooled VWs as well and a guy on the VW forum had a motor that would rattle when the clutch was in, then it just became constant; excessive end play because of a shoddy rebuild by a shop probably very much like the one who built mine. The noise may be the chain hitting really hard against the guides for the split second that the tensioner is "flat". Even a non spec'd build on a 22r would not have excess rod or main clearences after 16k miles, and I am not sure if this was. Does anyone know if a chain would make a knock. It only does it when the engine is hot and say I am filling up...stop the engine...start it a few minutes later...knock knock knock...normal lopey 268 idle.

. Driving me nuts. What are the specs for oil pressure in a 22re and how can one find them...i'm assuming they're in ohms. Somebody HELP!!!!

twistedtoy92 · « **Reply #19 on:** Apr 18, 2011, 03:29:06 AM »

what rod bearings are you running? I had a set of ENGN BLDRs bearings which ended up being TDC which is Chinese

and I only got 3000 miles out of them before they literally CRUMBLED.... Pissed me off. And yes I had my crank polished, mic'd it, plastigauged it, the whole nine yards. I will only run Clevite now. I had the same issue as you but I run the steel backed guides so I pulled the pan and rolled in all new bearings. Chains dont knock, but rods sure do!

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #20 on:** Apr 18, 2011, 11:11:12 AM »

Quote from: twistedtoy92 on Apr 18, 2011, 03:29:06 AM

what rod bearings are you running? I had a set of ENGN BLDRs bearings which ended up being TDC which is Chinese and I only got 3000 miles out of them before they literally CRUMBLED.... Pissed me off. And yes I had my crank polished, mic'd it, plastigauged it, the whole nine yards. I will only run Clevite now. I had the same issue as you but I run the steel backed guides so I pulled the pan and rolled in all new bearings. Chains dont knock, but rods sure do!

Enginebldr sells Chinese bearings?! I have one of their street rv heads with the stainless valves and hd springs....and a 268 cam from them, hopefully not made in the land of Mao. Can the Chinese do anything right? The P/O had the short block done by Allegiant Auto Machine in Fresno and all it says about bearings is "master parts kit" for $265 big ones....whoo hoo!! Now that I know about the Chinese stuff, my worst fears may be confirmed. The parts kit came with EVERYTHING but the crank and rods and I am positive that it was not spec'd out before being thrown together. I'll try to get a hold of the place that did it to interrogate them. I am just going to start accruing parts for a short block that will be spec'd, blueprinted and no corners cut. Does anyone from Fresno know of Allegiant's reputation?

EDIT...I got a hold of engnbldr asking if his bearings were Chinese, he was pissed. He said that the bearings are made by King in Israel and also are some of the best bearings on the market. I would not run anything made there personally, unless they were proven to be the best, which I doubt they are. He said that the guy running his mouth cannot put an engine together which made him look like an as*hole because he probably did stock TDC bearings and I will take anyones side on this forum before some Portland businessman. Some Oregonians think their sh*t don;t stink

. The cam blanks are from Germany if new and Japan if from a few months ago, HD springs are from Australia, retainers from Nevada, the stainless valves are EV8 rated and I'm assuming they're from the orient, he would not tell me and said assured me they were good, I don't know where the heads are cast and where the valve seats are made, they might install the seats in house. It would be cool if everything was made here instead of by workers in communist countries, it is what it is.

twistedtoy92 · « **Reply #21 on:** Apr 18, 2011, 12:39:14 PM »

Yeah when I pulled them out they had TDC stamped on the back which is made in China... The other bearings I got actually said ROCK on the back.... I also have engn bldr's torker cam and i did his full kit. I ordered the street rv head and lce dual valve springs. I will be using LCE, Toyota, and Clevite products on this rebuild. My buddy had the same bearing failure with those bearings so he went Clevite as well.

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #22 on:** Apr 18, 2011, 10:31:09 PM »

It seems like everyone always speaks highly of LCE. I am going to be looking into diesel before the clamp is put on for good in California. OM617 Mercedes 5 cylinder turbo! I may also just build a rock solid bottom end for now here in a few months. There is a great write up somewhere about making the OM 617 plate and adapting it to the W56. You also have to adapt the Toy flywheel to crank output on the Merc by machining it out to fit. Have to look into it, it would make a killer thread. There is a video on Youtoob http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEgl5P-Ooew and it is pretty sick. I don't think a 21 spline t-case and W56 would hold up for long against 190+ foot pounds though, especially not duals.

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #23 on:** Apr 28, 2011, 01:12:58 PM »

Is there any way a 22re oil pump could be installed in a way that would compromise flow during normal operation? Just seems like the oil pressure takes too much time to build when the engine is hot like it's escaping. Keep taking my turtle points too, I want minus 1000

.

twistedtoy92 · « **Reply #24 on:** Apr 28, 2011, 06:47:20 PM »

what oil filter are you running? If the oil pump "O" ring is not installed correctly it may leak pressure out of that.

Jagdverband44 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 05, 2011, 12:02:04 AM »

Quote from: twistedtoy92 on Apr 28, 2011, 06:47:20 PM

what oil filter are you running? If the oil pump "O" ring is not installed correctly it may leak pressure out of that.

OEM Toy filter. I found the knock at idle could be ignition related, but I doubt it because the pressure needle is at the bottom range of acceptable when the engine is hot. Once I get a new ECU, the timing chain and oil pump are getting replaced. Also, I'm running a 15w40 and may go to a 10w30 next time.

KDXSR5 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 05, 2011, 10:52:12 AM »

Quote from: Blackmackerel82 on Apr 28, 2011, 01:12:58 PM

Is there any way a 22re oil pump could be installed in a way that would compromise flow during normal operation? Just seems like the oil pressure takes too much time to build when the engine is hot like it's escaping. Keep taking my turtle points too, I want minus 1000 .

If the spring in it gets stuck it can cause some bad things to happen. Take off the large bolt that is on it and see if the spring is all gunked up. The spring is held in my that large bolt. If it is gunky, clean that crap out.

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