Topic: Massive Marlin Crawler parts comparison!!!

[superstarai]

 Why does marlin crawler complete t-cases cost more than inchworm i just dont get it same thing? Inchworms a $630 and your guys are $719 and up whats up? Iam about to go with inchorm better prices and plus they feature 5:1 gearsets! 






Edit: title was changed by me, BigMike

[WHITE_TRASH]

Do you think that inchworms cases are built be the best in the buisness?  I dont suppose that you've stopped and examined the 5:1 gears either?  They take a tooth off of the input to gain that last shred of reduction which in fact weakens the gear by loss of contact. 

[Skinny_Pedal]

lets not be mean to marlin now

[BigMike]

lets not be mean to marlin now

Please be mean - lets get the facts right out!


Inchworm's kit is cheaper to produce than ours for the following two reasons:
1: They use a stock 8 ball bearing mainshaft bearing for the output shaft.
2: They use a stock mainshaft that is cut in half, drilled out, and then splined. This is cheap and weaker than stock because they do not reheat-treat the shaft. They just modify the existing stock mainshaft and convert it into an output shaft.

For Marlin's Adapters, and I mean all of them, from the MC07 all the way up to the V8 Tundra MC09,
1: We use a Maximum service double-roller 32-ball bearing mainshaft bearing for the output shaft.
2: We use a complete NEW aftermarket Heat treated output shaft coupler.


Comparisons:

	Inchworm's Mainshaft bearing:	Marlin Crawler's Mainshaft bearing:
Ball Count:	8	32
Static Load Rating:	5,850 lbs	11,600 lbs
Dynamic Load Rating:	11,400 lbs	14,600 lbs
Bearing Width:	23mm	30mm
Largest Spline Size:	21-spline Only	21- or 23-spline available
Heat Treated Coupler:	No	Yes

- Our bearing is 98% stronger under static loads and 63% stronger over all.
- Because our bearing is 7mm (just over 1/4") wider, the output shaft is supported better than the stock factory mainshaft bearing (used in the Inchworm) and out of the 1,600+ units sold, we have NEVER had any couplers come back worn out or stripped. The problem with narrower bearings, especially like the 11mm narrower bearing used in the old MC05 (Now A/A Crawler), is that the coupler is not supported well and it teeters sideways and wears out both the splines on the input and the coupler's OD size.
- Because the stock mainshaft's physical size is inherit (it already exists), a 23-Spline outer dimensions is too large to use inside of a modified stock mainshaft converted as an output shaft. Do you follow me? Basically, Inchworm is ONLY available as a 21-spline as long as they continue to modify the stock mainshaft and produce a weaker modified output shaft. They have made a custom 23-spline modified output shaft but it failed the first time out because the wall was just too thin. This is not a secret, its open public knowledge

We have countless Big block V8s, 350s, V6s, Vortecs, Supercharged 3.4L setups in Tacomas, 4Runners, and T100s, and a 4.7L V8 Tundra - all using Marlin Crawler Adapters with our Double Roller Bearing and heat treated output shaft. Inchworm can not make these claims and never will until they do something about their products.

But of course your rig is a 21-spline so this does not apply to you, so maybe you are willing to save a few bucks. But we actually have two broken output shafts from Inchworm in stock (in our Trophy area) that are from a customer who towed his rig and another who carried in broken parts to have it upgraded to a Marlin Crawler. This is also open public knowledge So Its not that I am trying to hide something or bend the truth to prove the differences of the two units... these are facts. Their have been many accounts of failed Inchworms / A/A / Jeep eater, but we are still waiting for the first failed MC07 Double roller bearing design.

It is no secret that because you are paying for a product that is priced less, it is of lesser quality. The Inchworm is a great unit that works just the same as a Marlin Crawler, but the draw backs are that it uses a factory mainshaft bearing that is only 23mm wide and it uses an output shaft that is weaker then the mainshaft in your t/case right now. So the probability of a couple shaft or input gear failure is extremely greater with the Inchworm and we are still waiting for our first one out of 1600+ to fail..

So, that's where the $89 comes from. For most people the extra $89 is insurance that it will never fail when out on the trail for many many years to come.


As for the A/A 5.0:1 Gears, which are actually 4.97:1 (not 5.0:1), WT is correct. I have some pictures I could dig up for you if your interested and I did a write up on the pirates along time ago that got deleted as far as I can tell, I cant find my post any longer...

But the bad thing about any non-Marlin Crawler gears is that they do not have the Total Spline Technology. I am not trying to praise Marlin Crawler, its just a simple fact that Marlin Crawler is the only company that I know who uses the Total Spline Technology. Because of this, we have had ZERO input failures. More spline contact = less wear + longer life + increased torque rating.
As for the teeth, A/A's gear cutter just simply took one of our old discontinued 4.70:1 gear set (our old style gears) and added a tooth to both the input and the low speed gear. The outer dimensions of course are the same size as the 4.70:1 gear set (the case can't be milled any more than it already is) so how did they add those two extra teeth? Yup, by making every other tooth skinner, narrower, and smaller.

So I warn people when ever they ask questions about the shady 5.0:1 (4.97:1) gear sets. It sounds to us that A/A just wanted to have something lower then us and we could care less. And seeing how weak those 5.0:1 gears are, I personally would NEVER use them because we have had a couple old style 4.70:1 gear sets fail on the same low speed gear as the 5.0:1. And if the 5.0:1 is weaker, then sheesh, I would have to carry a spare 2.28:1 gears with me no matter what trail I took..

When you consider the facts that our new 4.70:1 gears are made in Japan by Toyota's Gear Cutter (yes the same company who made the 2.28:1 gears), better metal, better design, and the Total Spline Technology, it just seems like a no brainer as to what gear set to choose.

Regards,
BigMike

[84runner]

Well I guess that settles that  or at least it should 

[superstarai]

 Allright i get it sorry guys. THanks for the info. I guess its better to pay the few more extra uh. THanks again. See ya around on the trails. I will buy from marlin offcourse!

[Skinny_Pedal]

after that explanation why would u even consider anything else?

[BigMike]

Just buy what ever you're in the market for. I've heard stories about Jim Christianson (owner of Inchworm) and they have all been great. I've even talked to him on the phone a couple of times and he is a great guy.

Personally, when its drivetrain related, I would never settle for just $89 bucks, Especially when it's weaker than stock.

That's like someone offering you a G52 when you could buy a R151F for just $89 bucks more.


BigMike

[Skinny_Pedal]

dont worry big mike i've never heard of the inchworm, and i would only put marlin parts in my running gear.

[superstarai]

 Iam just  anyway i just wanted to know why and i now i know why their cheaper and plus offcourse i would buy from u guys. I just cant wait to do it i plan on changing my crappy auto to a w-56 5 speed+tcase  i heard to do it all u need is a slave cyclinder, master cyclinder which i can get from u guys, pressure line, manual pedal stuff, clutch, flywheel, and i think thats it! I hope. If you got anything else iam missing it would help its just that money gets in the damm way. Its all good though once iam done i want to add a mc08 adapter along with a complete t-case from marlin and a 4.7 gearset with twinstick oh yea  I just cant wait to rip out that damm auto and start driving better and faster, quicker, easier then the damm gas pedal down to the floor because the auto doesnt shift right i think but everyody in my house loves the auto and i hate it See ya guys on the trail in a couple of years thanks for the info man i appericate it.

[SWAMPER]

    supestarai....Oh and why in a couple of years?

[Bazzi]

 
If I would had known this before I started building my dual adapter I would had bought it from you guys but instead I bought my adapter plate from a local company it looks the same but it has the stock modified main shaft and everything else stock 

that makes it weaker than stock     

that just show´s me Marlin is the best......

I would wish that I could be in his crew so I could be a part of his wictorys in modifying Toyotas

[BigMike]

Ok guys, I searched and searched and searched and I've finally found my super old comparison post about our 4.70:1 Gear Set compared to the A/A 5.0:1 set that I posted on the pirates bbs along time ago..

Here it is in all it's glory! Enjoy the reading!
Original Post: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164790&page=3&pp=25
Regarding A/A 5.0:1 Gear Set
Date: 08-07-2003
Quote by Benny:

How do these compare to the 5:1 gears. I realize that the 5:1 is obviously lower, and that these gears are supposed to be stronger...

Quote by Ben Holloway:

good question, im wondering the same thing

Well, first lets look at some numbers. I think no one else knows this, but the 5:1 A/A Gear Set is in fact a 4.97:1. I know this because I counted the teeth when we got our first set and did the math. I've got a small write up for our webpage about this but never finished it. I believe that our webpage still says "Under Construction, Please Excuse the Mess" on our 4.70:1 page. Good work BigMike. Gee Thanks...... So the tech that I am about to present is supposed to be on our webpage.

Anyways, back to the numbers, 4.97:1 is only 5.4% lower then the 4.70:1 set. Using practical numbers, in a stock truck, it would be 76:1 (4.70:1 setup) compared to 80:1 (4.97:1 setup). And since we are on a practical note, the difference is unnoticeable. It would take two rigs 50 feet just to tell which one is slower than the other. And lastly on a picky note, its a lower ratio, so it is slower, and slower is sometimes better for more traction and increased torque. I'd like to have an option of being slower and so would you!

Here is the raw data:
Marlin Crawler 4.70:1 Gear Set:
 Input Gear: 20 teeth
 Idler Gear: 35 and 16
 Low Spd Gear: 43

A/A 5:1 Gear Set:
 Input Gear: 20 teeth
 Idler Gear: 37 and 16
 Low Spd Gear: 43

Actual Ratios:
Marlin Crawler 4.70:1 Gear Set: (35/20) x (43/16) = 4.703125:1
A/A 5:1 Gear Set: (37/20) x (43/16) = 4.971875:1

So now were clear that the 5:1 is really a 4.97:1. And you know what, its almost pointless to even worry about this. I mean what am I even am talking about? a 0.03 cover up by A/A? Why even bother, that's nil. Yes, it is nil, just like a 4.70:1 compared to a 4.97:1 on the trail, its nil. But hey its something right?

So maybe the ratios dont mean anything because they are so close?

Well here are some physical differences:



You can see that the 4.97:1's teeth are much more narrower than the 4.70:1's. This is because the idler has an added 2 teeth and the space has to be taken away from the input. These teeth are weaker, plus that input is the smallest gear so its the weakest point of the whole gear set. So the weakest point is a bit weaker now.... Also please note that the A/A gears do not have a 2° taper on the shift hub teeth. See my next post for more info on this...




Of course we've all heard about Marlin Crawler's Total-Spline input gear. This is probably the most important difference of the two sets. The Total-Spline design has ended the problems of stripped out couplers and broken input gears. Problem solved, period. And that I would say is very good technical information.




Now here's something new that is an improvement over even the stock 2.28:1 design. What Marlin has done to his gears is modified the oil feed/pump system of the low speed idler gear. What this does is as the gear is spinning, his system scoops oil from one side and throws it from the other. Its like a Supercharged oil movement system. It moves more oil at a faster rate which promotes cooling. You can see that the A/A 4.97:1 setup uses the same 4 cutouts that the stock 2.28:1 gears have. They are effective at moving oil around -- I've never heard of a 2.28:1 gear set burning up with the proper amount of oil in the case. So this is not a matter of something being weaker or not so good. It is already fine enough, but Marlin seems to never rest with just fine enough. He always has to research and figure out how to make something better even when it is good enough as it already is. But I think its these little small things that Marlin does that makes his sets more unique.
So the 4.70:1 gear set has a better oil feed/pumping system then the 4.97:1 gear set.

There are a couple other advantages of the 4.70:1 (some teeth have been widened thanks to camo's "testing") but its not worth discussing at this time.


Quote by Benny:

Would it be wise to pass up the 5:1s in favor for these "stronger" 4.7s?

Well its ultimately up to you. Aside from the improvements that make the 4.7s stronger, think about ring'n'pinions. A 4.88:1 is stronger than a 5.29:1 because the teeth are wider and larger. Same goes for the transfercase gear ratios. A 2.28:1 is stronger than a 4.00:1 which is stronger than a 4.70:1 which is stronger than a 4.97:1. But these are just ratios. The weak link of the 2.28:1 is the actual size of the input dia at its smallest O.D. -- the point where the input will break.

The 2.28:1 input's skinniest spot is a 0.940" OD, the A/A 4.0:1, A/A 4.70:1, and A/A 4.97:1 all three have a skinniest spot  of 0.995" OD (0.055" thicker than stock / 5.6% larger), and the Marlin Crawler 4.70:1 Total-Spline's skinniest spot is an impressive 1.080" OD (0.140" thicker than stock / 12.9% larger).


Hope this information has helped with your question.
Have a good night,
BigMike


Ok so there's your comparison of the 4.70:1 vs. 4.97:1 gear set.
So I was wrong in my opening post on this thread about the teeth. A/A's gears have an added 2 teeth to only one gear and the rest have the same count as our 4.70:1.



Regards,
BigMike

[BigMike]

I just dug up another tech article here on our forum regarding how every A/A gear set "pops" out of gear.
It's a pretty scarry problem that was fixed when we built our new gears.

You can check that info out here: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=2436.msg19917#msg19917



When I wrote that article, at that time the 4.97:1 was not made yet, but just to fill you in, it has the same taper as the above A/A 4.00:1 and 4.70:1 gear set. They are all from the same gear cutter..

Regards,
BigMike

[BigMike]

Ahhhh ok here's another... I know this has become a crap load of tech so I hope you're ready for some more-

Original Post: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165571
Date: 08-06-2003

Edit: On the Marlin crawler website their new adapter have bigger bearing and they make it seem like the bearings in the advance adapter kit suck. Is that true...are they inadequate?

This is likely a matter of opinion and what you use your truck for. Our old MC05 Adapter plates used a main bearing that is weaker than stock. It was originally used out of convinence. A/A uses this same narrow bearing in most of their other product lines (eg. 350 adapter, 700R4 adapter, T18 adapter, NP435 adapter, etc) only as an idler bearing to support the main shaft coupler of those adapters. It was never intended nor is it strong enough to support the low range load requirements of a Toyota transfercase. Marlin had originally designed the MC05 to have the double roller bearing in July of 1998, however A/A declined to use it and rather opted to use their common bearing that was much cheaper and hundreds in stock. Marlin tried for more then 1 1/2 years to get the bearing upgraded to the double roller that we use today. It is true that the MC05 is inadequate for a reliable and long-term application. However, it does function as it's supposed to and will provide your vehicle with a lower Crawl ratio.

Quote from TNToy:

Furthermore, the small bearing design that AA currently sells is what Marlin sold until about two years back, when he stopped selling it and started making the bigger-bearing adapters.

Yes, this is the one. But two things, For some reason, people on this board continue to believe that we just stopped selling the MC05 yesterday and that we sold so many of them. We stopped selling the narrow MC05 crawler almost 4 years ago. Also Marlin had tried to convince A/A for more then a year and a half before then to upgrade to the double roller and they finally did it but at the cost of retailing the MC05. This is similar to why we discontinued the Marfields, because the manufacture was unwilling to improve the design. At about ~ MC05 #0440-#0450 A/A finally made the switch. Since then more then #1500 Double Roller MC07 Adapters have been sold. And we had A/A starting to make design changes by around by #0300. So if you put it into perspective, the Double Roller MC07 has out-sold the Narrow MC05 early crawler 6 to 1 (1800/300 = 6). Clearly we did not sell nearly as many of the narrow MC05 crawlers as compared to the Double Roller MC07 and we're so glad to see that we distributed a weaker then stock setup for only a very short period of time.

Quote from TNToy:

Yes, Marlin's bearings are better... however, I know people who have been running the "AA" setup for over 5 years without trouble or excessive wear.

You know, people talk all the time how I've been running my MC05 for like 10 years this and 8 years that and I don't have any wear or problems But you know what the reality is? A majority of our MC05 customers who have returned to upgrade to an ultimate, have excessive and often severe wear to the MC05 coupler. When we open up the crawler to inspect how the coupler is, we see noticable wear at the place where the narrow bearing sits and the splines are all but gone. Because the bearing is so narrow, the couple waddles - or teeters - from side to side. This is because the narrow bearing does not have enough support to prevent the coupler from waddling. And once the coupler waddles more and more, the splines encounter very bad premature wear and this is why alot of the MC05 couplers strip out. You'll notice a worn out coupler right away from the brown-orange powder and the fine dust that is developed from the splines stripping each other out (see picture below).

This is a MC05 coupler that we have saved untouched from a customer who drove his truck in for an ultimate upgrade (installing a 4.70:1 gear set). Untouched. All that crap was in his coupler as he drove to our shop. It ran fine, crawled fine, shifted fine, but it was only a matter of time until it stripped out. Those teeth are so worn out you dont even want to know (look close at the peeks of the teeth inside the coulper, they are narrow from being ground away) . And this is not a one-of-a-time-occasion, this is how all alot of the MC05s that we've opened up look like. We send these couplers back to A/A for warrentee every time. This is from many many miles of the coupler waddling and wearing away at the splines until its to late. Never ever have we seen a MC07, MC08, or MC09 coupler look like this. Even the early MC07s from 3-4 years ago. No more orange crap. That is all caused from many hours of splines grinding away at each other. The Doubler Roller bearing has more then enough support and exceeds the low range torque requirements to prevent the waddling, problem solved. Its 5/8" wider and has two sets of rollers amounting in 32 total bearings as compared to 9 (MC05 narrow bearing). Obviously Marlin was wise when he improved the Crawler design.

TNToy, sure the MC05 Crawler may be trouble free, but what's really going to look bad is when they reach their life expectancy and all of a sudden we start hearing about MC05 bearings going
out. Then you'll know why things are upgraded when a machinist feels it's to weak. And honestly I doubt that you know of anyone who's without excessive wear. Have they ever opened up their
case and inspected it? How can one tell the difference between gear backlash and coupler slop until they open it up and look first hand. I'm sure their unit is working fine and shifting well, I'm not arguing this, its just that you'll not going to know about your worn out coupler until its too late. We have given away alot of input gears for free to replace stripped ones, and we've opened up more then just a couple. Also, we have had MC05 crawlers that wont even seperate! The splines on the input get gets caught on the end of the worn out MC05 coupler teeth. We have had to hold the input on the crawl box, and turn the rear t/case backwards to unhook and release the input gear.
They weren't broken, please don't confuse this, of course its not stripped yet, but its on its way, theres no doubt about it.

So what am I saying? Is the MC05 going to fail? Yes. Is it weaker then stock? Yes. Is it a poor design? Most definitely. But the ultimate question is "when?" Sure I've seen MC05s run for 4 years too but just don't go around telling people that their is no difference with the MC05 vs. the MC07! That is a lie in its purest form. I understand that the MC05 and the MC07 are both dual case crawlers,  but that's like saying your Ford Tempo can get you from point A to point B just like a Mercedes S600 but I promise you that one is not as good as the other and that one will break down many times and many years before the other.


This is a stripped out MC05 coupler. Ouch.

And the funny thing is that when our customer is here looking at his MC05 Crawler that we sold him 4 or 5 years ago, and he sees how worn out it is, we have never had anyone want to continue to run it. They are amazed at the wear and they can't believe how it was still working! Once they see that they immediately upgrade to the Double Roller MC07 without even blinking an eye at the price difference. Now thats a cool product.

I looked on advance adapters website and it says the adapter only works with 80-83 t-cases, are those years hard to find?

That is half correct. Their adapter works with 1980-1983-ALL and 1985-1988-EFI(non-turbo) transfercases. If your looking for similar tech questions regarding how the Dualcase system works and what's involved with its installation, feel free to browse our forum at http://board.marlincrawler.com

Are the kits pretty complete or will I need to buy some other stuff?

Their kits will require a speedometer cable extension (all 1984+ applications), you'll have to press out a cage roller bearing from your donor t/case, and your also have to retrieve two dowel pins from the donor t/case. Also no shift light plug or transmission output seal is supplied.

Quote from toy_grove:

Don't forget that your stock c-member will need to be changed.

This is optional and is not required. The stock crossmember can be used in the stock location just fine. On high lift applications, the front of the crossmember will need to be clearanced for the CV Joint.

Quote from 85runnerAZ:

So you're saying Marlin is a better way to go even though it is more $$$...

It is better and it costs more because it uses stronger maximum heavy duty parts, and we pre assemble the plate by pressing in the double roller bearing, installing the 3-bolts, we supply and press in the cage roller bearing and lube it, we install the two dowel pins, we supply a shift light plug with gasket, and a new genuine Toyota Transmission output seal. This is how Marlin shows that he goes above and beyond what's needed - He even supplies a new Toyota Transmission output seal. How cool of a guy is that? Also, we include our new Marlin Crawler Turtle Shift Knob for free.

But 85runnerAZ, I could sit here all day telling you why this is better, and that, and this, and that, but it comes down to what you need for your truck and what you plan to use it for. If your truck is not a daily driver and maybe you even plan on selling it some time, then all of this information that I have been telling you about may not apply to you and then its purely a matter of cost. But I really wish that people would just use the facts that have been presented on this message board in the past so that we can all think for our own selves and order what we feel is right for what ever the needs are.

Quote from cruzer75:

What is the size (ODxIDxwidth) or the number and manufacturer of the [MC05] bearing...

cruzer75, this is not the problem with the MC05 crawlers. Even if you are able to find a stronger bearing that has those same dimensions, its still to narrow to prevent the coupler from waddling. The bearing is just to narrow and is under-rated for the application, period.

Regards,
BigMike


So that settles the MC05 vs. MC07 question and problems with weak bearing designs.

Regards,
BigMike

[Bazzi]

I am imagining a lot of confused faces reating this.

But if you reat it carefully you will see and understand the difference and why everyone should use Marlins

[brainlessfool]

man mike, slow down my head is spinning 

[yotaboy79]

i know the difference and it is that marlin is the best period end of story. when you buy drivetrain parts you get what you pay for and with marlin you get quality and some one that will stand behind there product 100% of the time i wont buy any thing for toy drive train from any one else

[SWAMPER]

Same here    Marlin Crawler all the way 

[Dark Chaos]

I was all ways told you get what you pay for

[SWAMPER]

Not always true....cheap prostitutes are better than expensive ones  (btw its  :bull crap:)

[yotaboy79]

 

[SWAMPER]

What 

[yotaboy79]

 

[SWAMPER]

Ive only done 6 times 

[84runner]

What is with all the  :bull crap: and thread jacking  this had the start of a good post and I think you shuold make this one a Sticky post BigMike  lots of good info and something that all the newcomers should read

[yotaboy79]

yup good idear mikey make it sticky that didnt sound right

[SWAMPER]

 

[superstarai]

 Thanks for all that info i apprecaite and now iam smarter too  I cant wait till i put a double t-case in my toy with the mc-08 adapter. THanks again.

[SWAMPER]