Author Topic: What is wrong with my motor ?(UPDATE FOUND THE PROBLEM!!) (Read 18653 times)

Phazertwo · « **on:** Apr 27, 2006, 12:05:40 PM »

When I had my engine built the builder said that at 500 miles I should pull the valve cover and check the valves and adjust as needed. Today I hit 470 and decided to go ahead and do it since I was getting VERY strange noise. It sounds to me like the t-chain is rubbing on my steal enginbuilder guide. However, the weight of my foot on the clutch makes it go away. I am talking like taking the free play out of the pedal! I checked my clutch, and put my stethascope (thing that the Dr. uses to listen to your hart) to everything in the truck, and the only place I can hear it is when the end of the scope is on the timing marks on the oil pump housing. weird I know. So when I pulled my valve cover every thing looks brand new, and there is plenty of oil all over everything. I inspected my cam (LC stage II) and found that there are only wear marks on one half of each lobe. Like the rockers aren't on there square to the world. IS that normal? What else could my noise be besides the t-chain?!

TIA
PZ

toymech · « **Reply #1 on:** Apr 27, 2006, 06:09:13 PM »

What kind of noise is it? High pitched whine or a clicking sound? It could just be a throw out bearing for your clutch dude. Mike

miks85yota · « **Reply #2 on:** Apr 27, 2006, 06:26:32 PM »

yeah, sounds like it may be a throwout bering, or pilot bering

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #3 on:** Apr 27, 2006, 07:58:26 PM »

pull the cover and use a flashlight and see if the chain is loose, but since you said the noise stops whentouching the clutch i would say a throwoutbearing

toyo487 · « **Reply #4 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 08:57:42 AM »

I've used 2 timming chain sets from engnbldr and had to replace both because they were junk and rubbed on the bolts that hold the guide on the driveres side of the engine. One of the bolts that holds the oil pump on could be in the wrong place also, if you don't put them in the right order then if to long it could touch the tensioner for the timming chain. but since the noise goes away when you push on the clutch pedal then I would also assume your throw out bearing.

Phazertwo · « **Reply #5 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 10:56:43 AM »

I assumed it was the relese bearing too. But when i putthe stethascope to the clutch fork, it didn't make the noise. The clutch, relese, and piloit bearings were all new at the same time of the engine (~500 miles). It is not a squelling noise. It is a clinging noise.

I pulled the valve cover, and the t-chain is not tight on the drivers side, but it is tight on the passenger side. Is that right.

I have heard bad things about the enginebuilder kit, but it seems that lots of people have been running it w/o problem.

PZ

toyo487 · « **Reply #6 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 12:23:39 PM »

look down along side the t-chain guide on the drivers side with a light, look at the bolts that hold the guide to the block you want to see if the bolt is being worn by the chain running along it while the motor is running. Like I said both of the t-chain kits that I used from eninebuilder were crap, and I had to repace both of them with better kits. I will NEVER use any engnblder parts in any toyota again. I would pay a little more money and get better parts the first time.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #7 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 12:47:56 PM »

the gaskets they use, Rockproducts , is a good brand, but yes the clatter you hear is the chain slapping your guide bolts, i bet the performance has suffered too hasnt it, CHAIN STRETCH

Phazertwo · « **Reply #8 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 02:09:43 PM »

I looked at the bolts and they looked fine. The chain showed some marks where it looked like it would hit the bolts.

Who makes a good t-chain kit for this thing, and what is different.

PZ

toyo487 · « **Reply #9 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 02:24:57 PM »

I've been useing a kit from PCI and have had really good results with it. It has the steel backed guard and comes with bolts and all. The tensioner is also made in Japan. I really don't know what is wrong with the engnbldr kit but I think that their chain may just be a bit long.

Phazertwo · « **Reply #10 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 04:17:30 PM »

I checked out that kit. I started straining the oil and am afraid to go look and see whats left over. I talked with a friend that builds his own cars (delorion, aston martin, the nice ones) and he things that my thurst bearins are bad.

I looked at the PCI kit, looks good, but i don't get what is different about it? Why does the chain hit the bolts on this kit and not on the PCI, or stock guides for that matter

PZ

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #11 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 04:51:11 PM »

the chain is just weak and stretches, www.lcengineering.com or
D.O.A.racing

has a good timing set, and a toyota dealer part is best but

toymech · « **Reply #12 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 05:09:47 PM »

I came pretty close to buying my whole engine rebuild set fron engnbldr.com Dont get me wrong hes selling good stuff but last minute I found just what the doctor ordered for my 4runner from 22re.com. High quality Japanese parts just dont use his gaskets, use fel-pro stuff. I dont like metal guides,I like metal backed guides. Where do you think all that metal is going from the chain wearing against it,right in the pan. I think the noise is slack in the chain. Check the chain first,if thats tight i think the throw out bearing or pilot bearing took a crap on ya. The only other thing i could think of is a worn thrust bearing,or improperly installed thrust bearing on the crank. That can make some nice noises when the clutch is depressed and the whole crank moves. You can check that by trying to pry the crank pulley foreward carefully with a pry bar. If it moves,theres your problem. Just remember,22r engines are not the quietest either. Add some loud ass metal guides and your sounding like a diesel. Good luck. Hope some of my babbling helps ya. Mike

Phazertwo · « **Reply #13 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 12:04:50 AM »

toyota made a steel drivers side guide?

Well, the oil is strained. There were lots and lots of really really small pieces of metal and two pieces of pretty big pieces, and several small shavings. I cut the filter open and took it into my old mans work and had a look at it under a bad ass microscope, there is brass or copper in it. The guy there that has been helping me with this truck thinks my thrust bearings are shelled. I will check for crank shaft end play in the morning.

Tomorrow I am going to yank the pan to see what I find in it. I am also going to take the filter and the metal that I got out of the oil to the machinist that built my motor and see what he has to say. I will also try for pics tomorrow

For now, if my thrust bearins went bad, than what am I looking at to repair the engine. I would imagine that it will mess up the crank, and the journals/block? What should I expect to have to replace. (i really don't like the idea of welding my crank...)

thanks
PZ

Phazertwo · « **Reply #14 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 12:05:37 AM »

Alright. I am not sure if it was the

or the light, but those large chunks were RTV. other than that there was like 2 small slivers of metal and that was it. Other than that the oil was clean of metal. Now I am pretty positive that its the t-chain, but I am going out in a few to check the end play in the crank. I heard that it should have .007-.010 endplay.

I am thinking about this kit for the t-chain

http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebGear/ProductDetails.aspx?PartID=1015012&PartRevisionID=

Its a little $$$ but it would be nice to have a dual row. I was wondering if you can do this with the stock timing cover, but their website says you can't

PZ

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #15 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 12:19:16 PM »

no you'lll be better off running there kit

toymech · « **Reply #16 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 03:05:25 PM »

Get a good timing kit. 22re.com sells a nice kit by OSK Japan. Put a nice high pressure oil pump in there too for extra measure. Bring that ol 22r back to life dude! Good luck. Mike

Phazertwo · « **Reply #17 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 03:40:16 PM »

my 22re is not old by any means. It is BRAND SPANKING NEW! only 500 miles! I think I am gunna spring for the $$$ LC kit.

I have heard that running a high pressure oil pump is a bad idea, and that it can suck the pan dry when the truck is not level.

I think I found where my bronze came from in my oil filter. There are weird wear marks on the little sleve that the lower t-chain gear sits on. looks like it has been moving... I took some pics but won't be able to post them untill tomorrow morning.

PZ

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #18 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 04:00:34 PM »

dude, you gotta replace your thrust bearings

toymech · « **Reply #19 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 07:52:18 PM »

Thats right,you did say that was a new motor. That sucks your pulling it apart again. I never heard anything bad about the high volume pumps,must be thousands out there. Who built your motor? I hope your thrust bearing wasnt installed wrong. If its a 3 peice it has these washer looking things that go on the side of the main cap,I HOPE THEY DIDNT FORGET THEM. They are kind of important. Hopefully its just a timing chain making noise. The LC kit is expensive but its durable as hell. I managed to grab one off Ebay awhile back from a hopped up celica,used but bulletproof. Id be pretty pissed if my new motor was acting up like this,hope everything works out for ya. Mike

toymech · « **Reply #20 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 07:55:01 PM »

Dont forget those pics,id love to actually see whats going on. This is a weird one,id like to see what they did wrong on the motor. Thanks,Mike

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #21 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 08:01:50 PM »

Quote from: Phazertwo on Apr 29, 2006, 03:40:16 PM

I think I found where my bronze came from in my oil filter. There are weird wear marks on the little sleve that the lower t-chain gear sits on. looks like it has been moving... .

PZ

he said it was moving, the idiot that rebuilt his engine either used standard size thrust bearings or didnt know what they were

the thrust bearings are 4 cresent moon shaped strips that got between the #3 main and the crank

toymech · « **Reply #22 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 09:42:55 PM »

Hope the block isnt messed up,thats a big mistake with the thrust bearing. I personally like the one peice better that lays over the main cap. I think the peiced together one is stronger though if its installed right. I had an ATK engine once in the dealer that had the piston heads sheered off above the wrist pins due to improper piston ring gap. The rings expanded when hot then seized the piston heads. Needless to say I got to keep the block for my collection so I can punch it over and make a real engine out of it. For my truck a 3RZ would be nice but im toyoing around the idea of a diesel in it even though a half cut with a 2LT in it goes for 3 grand and up. For 3 grand ill go to Japan and cut one up myself and shove it in my luggage,lol. Mike

Phazertwo · « **Reply #23 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 11:54:32 PM »

Quote from: 79Coyotefrg on Apr 29, 2006, 08:01:50 PM

he said it was moving, the idiot that rebuilt his engine either used standard size thrust bearings or didn't know what they were

the thrust bearings are 4 cresent moon shaped strips that got between the #3 main and the crank

I know what the thrust bearins are. I think you took my post wrong.
I checked the crank and that pregnant dog wouldn't budge! There was hardly any metal in the oil, and I don't think that the metal in the filter was a big deal. The guy that built my engine has done many engines, I if it was his mess up, I am sure it was purely and accident, not carelessness.

pics should be up tomorrow so that you can better see what I am talking about. It seems that only the lower sprocket is moving back and forth. I put it all back together and started it up and watched the harmonic balancer to see if it was moving. Nada!

PZ

pumkin toy · « **Reply #24 on:** Apr 30, 2006, 10:33:36 AM »

Quote from: Phazertwo on Apr 29, 2006, 12:05:37 AM

Alright. I am not sure if it was the or the light, but those large chunks were RTV. other than that there was like 2 small slivers of metal and that was it. Other than that the oil was clean of metal. Now I am pretty positive that its the t-chain, but I am going out in a few to check the end play in the crank. I heard that it should have .007-.010 endplay.

I am thinking about this kit for the t-chain

http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebGear/ProductDetails.aspx?PartID=1015012&PartRevisionID=

Its a little $$$ but it would be nice to have a dual row. I was wondering if you can do this with the stock timing cover, but their website says you can't

PZ

hey i just got done reading through your whole predicament here. i recently rebuilt my 22r. i put a 20r head on it and used a double row timing chain. i've had no rubbing issues. but i dont know if the timing cover on a 22r and a 22re are the same. if they are the same i wouldnt see y using a double row chain would be an issue. and the reason i rebuilt my engine is because my thrust washers went bad. when that happened i had lots of metal in my oil pan, so i dont think that the thrust washers are your problem. it is also not uncommon to see small shavings of metal in your oil soon after a complete rebuild. the crank bearings have to break in and this will cause small amounts of metal in your oil. thats why it is recommended to change your oil soon after a rebuild. hopefully some of that info can help you out!

Phazertwo · « **Reply #25 on:** Apr 30, 2006, 01:07:50 PM »

Quote from: pumkin toy on Apr 30, 2006, 10:33:36 AM

hey i just got done reading through your whole predicament here. i recently rebuilt my 22r. i put a 20r head on it and used a double row timing chain. i've had no rubbing issues. but i dont know if the timing cover on a 22r and a 22re are the same. if they are the same i wouldnt see y using a double row chain would be an issue. and the reason i rebuilt my engine is because my thrust washers went bad. when that happened i had lots of metal in my oil pan, so i dont think that the thrust washers are your problem. it is also not uncommon to see small shavings of metal in your oil soon after a complete rebuild. the crank bearings have to break in and this will cause small amounts of metal in your oil. thats why it is recommended to change your oil soon after a rebuild. hopefully some of that info can help you out!

I figured that the metal was from the break in. The builder said there should be some, but not too much. The timing kit that I linked has a new timing cover so that you can run the dual chain with no problem. Here are the pics that I was talking about! hopfully this will shed more light on my problem!

PZ

pumkin toy · « **Reply #26 on:** Apr 30, 2006, 01:42:23 PM »

from these pics it looks like the chain is slightly rubbing on that bronze colored part of your lower gear. i'm assuming thats the lower timing gear? if that is correct i wouldnt think that it is a huge problem. it may just wear a little bit then stop making noise and be fine. i am not sure. i guess i have never really inspected a lower timing gear to see if it has wear marks on it like that. the thing that throws me off about this whole deal is that the noise stops when pushing on the clutch pedal with slight pressure. i dont know how pushing the pedal is connected to the noise coming from your timing gear. that is a little confusing. the only thing i can think of is that when you put a little pressure on the clutch it takes a small amount of load off the engine and causes the tension in the chain to change wich may be stopping the noise. that is the only thing i can think of if the noise is related to the pedal. i also found out recently that the pressure of the timing chain tensioner is run off of engine oil pressure. you may have already known that but that is something else you could check. does the noise stop if you rev up the engine and increase oil pressure? if it does then the problem could be in your tensioner. it could be clogged with some silicone or something causing it to not put enough tension on the chain which would allow it to make noise. theres some more ideas for ya! hopefully it doesnt complicate things more!

Phazertwo · « **Reply #27 on:** Apr 30, 2006, 02:12:38 PM »

I did not know that the tensioner is run off of the oil pump. and yes the noise starts to go away around 3,000 rpms. Makes sense. I have a feeling that the small amount of wear isn't related to my noise. I think if it were related to my noise there would be MUCH more metal in the oil and the filter (because the noise is pretty intense), and the marks where the wear is would be MUCH worse also.

Finals are this week, so I will only be web wheelling/wrenching. Hopfully I can order my timing kit soon and get it all town apart and get to the bottom of the crap. I WANNA WHEEL MY TRUCK!

PZ

pumkin toy · « **Reply #28 on:** Apr 30, 2006, 02:24:05 PM »

well hopefully your new timing kit will take care of the problem! it could be that you got a bad tensioner. good luck! keep us posted.

Phazertwo · « **Reply #29 on:** Jun 21, 2006, 12:27:30 PM »

I FIGURED THIS POS OUT!!!! only its to late to save the $300 i just spent on it, and now its gunna be more!

The dust shield on the harmonic balancer was rubbing on the oil pump!

Freekin SOB! If I would have just pulled the balancer off and looked at it. Oh well, the new timing kit is WAY nicer than the old one. However I broke my timing cover, so now I have to take it back off and replace it!

PZ

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